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Post by overgroundcommuter on Aug 28, 2014 15:35:12 GMT
My recollection is that it was a case of matching demand to capacity and frequency. The northern end of the 312 remained busy but its southern section had been more badly affected by Tramlink than the 197 along Morland Road, possibly due to the Addiscombe tramstop. Joining the 197 with the northern bit of the 312 maintained most links and matched service levels, while allowing reductions on the rump 312. But the 197 and 312 are both every 12mins. Indeed, but the 312 became a single decker route when it was curtailed to Norwood Junction.
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Post by sid on Aug 28, 2014 15:39:15 GMT
But the 197 and 312 are both every 12mins. Indeed, but the 312 became a single decker route when it was curtailed to Norwood Junction. Yes and that may well have something to do with it, single deckers wouldn't be the best option for the Peckham end. The irony is that the old 12A route was restricted to single deckers because of the railway bridge in Lower Addiscombe Road which was removed to make way for Tramlink, now that it could have double deckers it (apparently?) doesn't need them although in practice double deckers still appear daily.
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Post by vjaska on Aug 28, 2014 17:24:07 GMT
Indeed, but the 312 became a single decker route when it was curtailed to Norwood Junction. Yes and that may well have something to do with it, single deckers wouldn't be the best option for the Peckham end. The irony is that the old 12A route was restricted to single deckers because of the railway bridge in Lower Addiscombe Road which was removed to make way for Tramlink, now that it could have double deckers it (apparently?) doesn't need them although in practice double deckers stillĀ appear daily. I used the 312 for a few years whilst travelling to college and it was never packed enough to warrant double deckers because the 197 would take most of its passengers. The only time I had a rammed bus on the 312 was when MPD's PDL1-5 were at TC as I-Bus floats.
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Post by sid on Aug 28, 2014 17:42:04 GMT
Yes and that may well have something to do with it, single deckers wouldn't be the best option for the Peckham end. The irony is that the old 12A route was restricted to single deckers because of the railway bridge in Lower Addiscombe Road which was removed to make way for Tramlink, now that it could have double deckers it (apparently?) doesn't need them although in practice double deckers stillĀ appear daily. I used the 312 for a few years whilst travelling to college and it was never packed enough to warrant double deckers because the 197 would take most of its passengers. The only time I had a rammed bus on the 312 was when MPD's PDL1-5 were at TC as I-Bus floats. LS's on the 12A often got rammed
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Post by LX09FBJ on Aug 28, 2014 22:51:34 GMT
I used the 312 for a few years whilst travelling to college and it was never packed enough to warrant double deckers because the 197 would take most of its passengers. The only time I had a rammed bus on the 312 was when MPD's PDL1-5 were at TC as I-Bus floats. LS's on the 12A often got rammed Isn't most of the 12A now 197 though, with only the Norwood Junction-South Croydon section left as 312?
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Post by snoggle on Aug 28, 2014 23:20:30 GMT
LS's on the 12A often got rammed Another person who can remember the 12A of old. Did you use it regularly? ISTR someone saying they used to drive the route. Flashback time.
LS42 Norwood Junction by plcd1, on Flickr
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Post by bigbaddom1981 on Aug 28, 2014 23:23:02 GMT
LS's on the 12A often got rammed Another person who can remember the 12A of old. Did you use it regularly? ISTR someone saying they used to drive the route. Flashback time.
LS42 Norwood Junction by plcd1, on Flickr I love these buses and I'm old enough to have used them on the 5** red routes and Lea Valley in Herts
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Post by snoggle on Aug 28, 2014 23:37:37 GMT
I love these buses and I'm old enough to have used them on the 5** red routes and Lea Valley in Herts I can remember the very first day when I heard a Leyland National on the bus route that used to run down the street where my home was. I was so used to Bristol RE sounds that I went haring through the house and out into the street to see the back of a brand new National heading off into the distance. They were very nice when new. I even got to drive one through a bus garage once. In London I used LSs very regularly on the 230 from Finsbury Park. I used that route to help me piece together bits of North London when I first moved here. The 230 was the only reliable route on Markhouse Road in those days. The 58 and 158 were dreadfully unreliable.
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Post by vjaska on Aug 29, 2014 0:16:28 GMT
I love these buses and I'm old enough to have used them on the 5** red routes and Lea Valley in Herts I can remember the very first day when I heard a Leyland National on the bus route that used to run down the street where my home was. I was so used to Bristol RE sounds that I went haring through the house and out into the street to see the back of a brand new National heading off into the distance. They were very nice when new. I even got to drive one through a bus garage once. In London I used LSs very regularly on the 230 from Finsbury Park. I used that route to help me piece together bits of North London when I first moved here. The 230 was the only reliable route on Markhouse Road in those days. The 58 and 158 were dreadfully unreliable. Would of loved to ride one but I was too young & my area didn't have them during the 90's as majority of the routes were & still are decker routes.
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Post by vjaska on Aug 29, 2014 0:17:13 GMT
LS's on the 12A often got rammed Isn't most of the 12A now 197 though, with only the West Norwood-South Croydon section left as 312? Norwood Junction you mean lol. Be nice if it did go to West Norwood during my college days lol.
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Post by Steve80 on Aug 29, 2014 3:44:19 GMT
I don't know why 312 was cut down to Norwood Junction in the first place, can someone tell me the reason why? 312 is short and should be extended before it gets cut down. I say a chance 312 to relieve 75 to Catford (bit unlikely but a shot). A complete guess on my part but I wonder if the 197 and 312 were rejigged to deal with unreliability. AIUI the old 312 crossed Croydon Town Centre on its way to Peckham and I just wonder if traffic conditions in Croydon made the route unreliable. Rejigging the 197 to *start* in Croydon and up to Peckham with the 312 just being a local cross Croydon service probably improved reliability overall and meant a better service. Looking back at the history both the 197 and 312 had frequency reductions in 2000 which also suggests to me that LT took the view that patronage was declining in the area. As I say - an utter guess and if someone *knows* the real reason feel free to correct my ramblings. Found this thread which is about the 197 and 312 changes around 2005. There's not much information on why the changes took place but I though it might help nevertheless
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Post by Steve80 on Aug 29, 2014 3:48:34 GMT
LS's on the 12A often got rammed Another person who can remember the 12A of old. Did you use it regularly? ISTR someone saying they used to drive the route. Flashback time.
LS42 Norwood Junction by plcd1, on Flickr I have vague memories of using this route and unfortunately I don't recall any good memories! I do remember it being very busy and at the time I couldn't understand why they were no double decks on it. Obviously, it went via the low bridge in Old Lodge Lane, Purley but I didn't know at the time as I was just a toddler
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Post by paulsw2 on Aug 29, 2014 4:00:08 GMT
Another person who can remember the 12A of old. Did you use it regularly? ISTR someone saying they used to drive the route. Flashback time.
LS42 Norwood Junction by plcd1, on Flickr I have vague memories of using this route and unfortunately I don't recall any good memories! I do remember it being very busy and at the time I couldn't understand why they were no double decks on it. Obviously, it went via the low bridge in Old Lodge Lane, Purley but I didn't know at the time as I was just a toddler There was a low bridge in Addiscombe (where the trams now cross) that was why the 12A and 12B (Sundays) also 289 was SMS then LS operated when the bridge was removed it then made it possible for double deck operation (I believe last day of 12B had an L running) to be replaced by 312 after operated by L's Also if I remember correctly it ran it two overlapping sections PM-TC and Norwood Junction-Selsdon (with a couple of journeys to Riddlesdown for school kids)
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Post by sid on Aug 29, 2014 6:41:55 GMT
I have vague memories of using this route and unfortunately I don't recall any good memories! I do remember it being very busy and at the time I couldn't understand why they were no double decks on it. Obviously, it went via the low bridge in Old Lodge Lane, Purley but I didn't know at the time as I was just a toddler There was a low bridge in Addiscombe (where the trams now cross) that was why the 12A and 12B (Sundays) also 289 was SMS then LS operated when the bridge was removed it then made it possible for double deck operation (I believe last day of 12B had an L running) to be replaced by 312 after operated by L's Also if I remember correctly it ran it two overlapping sections PM-TC and Norwood Junction-Selsdon (with a couple of journeys to Riddlesdown for school kids) Yes that's correct and the Norwood Junction to Selsdon section was extended to Purley Old Lodge Lane in the mid 80's replacing part of the 234/A if I recall correctly. This bought another low bridge to the route in addition to the ones in Addiscombe and the one at South Croydon which it went under towards Selsdon only and returned via Aberdeen Road the way the 412 goes in both directions now. RT's could just about squeeze under the bridge in Addiscombe but not RM's or DMS's which is why the 12A had to be single deck, SMS and later LS, when it replaced the southern end of the 12 in 1972, the extension to Selsdon was introduced a few years later replacing part of the 54.
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Post by sid on Aug 29, 2014 6:45:49 GMT
LS's on the 12A often got rammed Isn't most of the 12A now 197 though, with only the Norwood Junction-South Croydon section left as 312? The proper route is via Spring Lane and Lower Addiscombe Road, it has just been diverted via the 197 route because of the weight restriction
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