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Post by snoggle on Jun 24, 2014 20:28:02 GMT
I have just found a link to this presentation which shows how transport facilities may be improved as a result of the large scale redevelopment of Central Croydon. There are mentions of a new tram loop plus improvements to 4 key bus routes. Might be of interest to South London members. |
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Post by DT 11 on Jun 24, 2014 20:33:26 GMT
Where is Wandle Road in Croydon? I know the area visually but not by road names. Not a place I like really tbh such a horrible place to get through.
I also see a mention of increased services on the 60, 109, 198 & 250, confused as to why the 109 was awarded to Abellio with the same pvr it currently has.... Has been known for a while the 109 is always overcrowded.
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Post by snoggle on Jun 24, 2014 20:43:58 GMT
Where is Wandle Road in Croydon? I know the area visually but not by road names. Not a place I like really tbh such a horrible place to get through. I also see a mention of increased services on the 60, 109 & 250, confused as to why the 109 was awarded to Abellio with the same pvr it currently has.... I expect the bus improvements will be after the redevelopments open - especially the redone Whitgift Centre. That's almost certainly 5 years away so no need to boost the 109 until then or at least no private money to do it with! Obviously TfL may well change their mind about what routes to enhance - this happens all the time with these externally funded schemes. |
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Post by DT 11 on Jun 24, 2014 20:52:54 GMT
Where is Wandle Road in Croydon? I know the area visually but not by road names. Not a place I like really tbh such a horrible place to get through. I also see a mention of increased services on the 60, 109 & 250, confused as to why the 109 was awarded to Abellio with the same pvr it currently has.... I expect the bus improvements will be after the redevelopments open - especially the redone Whitgift Centre. That's almost certainly 5 years away so no need to boost the 109 until then or at least no private money to do it with! Obviously TfL may well change their mind about what routes to enhance - this happens all the time with these externally funded schemes. The 109 will need increases probably long before that, or just extend the 64 to Streatham Station. |
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Post by vjaska on Jun 24, 2014 21:10:57 GMT
Where is Wandle Road in Croydon? I know the area visually but not by road names. Not a place I like really tbh such a horrible place to get through. I also see a mention of increased services on the 60, 109 & 250, confused as to why the 109 was awarded to Abellio with the same pvr it currently has.... I expect the bus improvements will be after the redevelopments open - especially the redone Whitgift Centre. That's almost certainly 5 years away so no need to boost the 109 until then or at least no private money to do it with! Obviously TfL may well change their mind about what routes to enhance - this happens all the time with these externally funded schemes. TfL have already identified the 109 as a route with overcrowding issues so I'd expect them to attempt to sort that before the development begins. The 109's partner, the 250, is another busy route as is the 60 but I'm quite surprised the 198 is chosen for enhancements - can think of many other Croydon routes that are more in need of enhancements - the 157 being the most pressing case. I find the plan to stand buses in Wandle Road quite bizarre TBH - all the roads from the High Street to Wandle Road are narrow and I'd also fear for driver safety as it's a horrible part of Croydon with lots of muggings and assaults taking place in that area. Personally, there is nothing wrong with where all routes currently stand. |
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Post by snoggle on Jun 24, 2014 21:59:59 GMT
Well I expected a reaction about the 109 and I wasn't disappointed.  I think the problem, yet again, is money. I agree the 109 is busy but the logical time to have tried to increase the service was when it was retendered due to the competitive pressure. I can only assume that TfL took the view that there is not enough money in the budget to expand it as it would be relatively expensive given it's already high frequency. A quick look at Londonbusroutes.net shows that to move from every 6 mins to every 5 mins would take an extra 5 buses which is not cheap. Therefore they have opted to wait until they get some extra cash from external parties. I think TfL are taking the line of trying to spread what money they have on routes where there is overcrowding but 1-2 buses will make a difference. Witness the W19, S1, 406 and 418 changes of late. |
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Post by Steve80 on Jun 25, 2014 0:47:08 GMT
Definitely a good idea to increase the 109 and 250. The 60 would be good not just for London Road but also along Brighton Road. Not sure about the 198 as I hardly use the route. They should look at increasing the 75/157 along Selhurst and Norwood Junction. I'm sure the 197 could benefit with an increase. It really hard using the 410 as well so maybe after they finish the bridge works at Tennison Road they could look at increasing the capacity on the route.
As for the trams, I find it unnecessary to loop the them around Dingwall Road. The West Croydon stop is very busy. The George Street and Church Street stops needs widening as there are far too many passengers at those stops.
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Post by snowman on Jun 25, 2014 6:08:41 GMT
Well I expected a reaction about the 109 and I wasn't disappointed. I think the problem, yet again, is money. I agree the 109 is busy but the logical time to have tried to increase the service was when it was retendered due to the competitive pressure. I can only assume that TfL took the view that there is not enough money in the budget to expand it as it would be relatively expensive given it's already high frequency. A quick look at Londonbusroutes.net shows that to move from every 6 mins to every 5 mins would take an extra 5 buses which is not cheap. Therefore they have opted to wait until they get some extra cash from external parties. I think TfL are taking the line of trying to spread what money they have on routes where there is overcrowding but 1-2 buses will make a difference. Witness the W19, S1, 406 and 418 changes of late. I think TfL have missed a trick with the 109. With new bus designs being available from the Autumn the obvious solution would have been the 11.1m MMC with a capacity in mid 90s its like adding 2 or 3 extra buses. (And from early 2015 can also get longer metrodecker with 100+ capacity) The 406, 418 didn't have that option as the new higher capacity buses weren't available by this weekend, and only one route was tendered so QL could have got compensation if DD1-5 needed to be replaced |
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Post by DT 11 on Jun 25, 2014 6:52:22 GMT
Definitely a good idea to increase the 109 and 250. The 60 would be good not just for London Road but also along Brighton Road. Not sure about the 198 as I hardly use the route. They should look at increasing the 75/157 along Selhurst and Norwood Junction. I'm sure the 197 could benefit with an increase. It really hard using the 410 as well so maybe after they finish the bridge works at Tennison Road they could look at increasing the capacity on the route. As for the trams, I find it unnecessary to loop the them around Dingwall Road. The West Croydon stop is very busy. The George Street and Church Street stops needs widening as there are far too many passengers at those stops. I agree with the 75/157, but one thing I've noticed since the takeover of the 75 a lot of the drivers on the 75 drive too slow and the demand is quite high, and end up getting turned at either Catford, Town Centre or West Croydon and slow driving with hybrids sorry don't understand how that works. I am grateful that the buses are driven by drivers, but sometimes get a fast driver, but more common slower drivers, in addition the 261 is slower these days as well, used to be a proper service gap and it is more common to get two buses running in pairs, the C drivers on the 75 the majority of them didn't hang about, have to say Metrobus had a lot better control of the 75 for the last 5 years even if it has been back at TL a short time, but when it was Stagecoach Selkent before hand ran the service it was great, not impressed with how it is running at the moment, with the amount of stand time the 75 has, curtailments should not be that regular I know the traffic in Catford is a major delay as it is for the 181, in a short space of time under Stagecoach I've seen a lot more turns and do not understand why, it was the same when the 261 was taken over by TB, mornings Lee Green & Bromley Common, Bus Garage every single day under the pvr was increased to 12. The 54 is run a lot better than how C ran it and not many turns apart from the odd Beckenham Junction turn which I sometimes see in the mornings. When I did the 75 on the 26th April it took 1 Hour and 30 Minutes journey time for the bus I was on to reach Lewisham - Croydon and that was mainly because the driver was driving like a snail, the time should be 1 hour during the day. I once had the service delivered in 20 minutes under Metrobus believe it or not, but this was at night. The timetable states every 13 minutes and I think that is appalling it was previously every 12 minutes this mean there are only 4 buses departing per hour every 10 minutes would help better or at least increase the frequency of tte 157 to help out a bit. In addition I think driver changeovers at The Catford Centre make things worse. Lewisham Station seems a better location even if it is a little further along the route, but all down to cost is probably the reason why the closer spot is used. Hopefully the 75 gets a lot better in the future though. Isn't the 157 a difficult route to operate? |
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Post by ServerKing on Jun 25, 2014 7:08:39 GMT
Some of the traffic lights and roads near Centrale could do with improvement - the phasing of the lights by Tamworth Road where it meets Reeves corner is awkward at best, as well as the layout. I'm sure it's a nightmare for most traffic, including trams and buses  The pointless set of lights near Drayton Road can go as well, replace it with a roundabout. The roads near Fairfield Halls could do with some attention as well. The roundabout can be a bit intimidating and tricky for new drivers  |
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Post by DT 11 on Jun 25, 2014 7:14:48 GMT
The roundabout can be a bit intimidating and tricky for new drivers That is indeed a very fair point. In addition I forgot to mention traffic in Lewisham sometimes does delay the 75. Lewisham does have one of the worst traffic systems in South East London as does Catford & Croydon. |
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Post by snoggle on Jun 25, 2014 9:35:57 GMT
The roundabout can be a bit intimidating and tricky for new drivers That is indeed a very fair point. In addition I forgot to mention traffic in Lewisham sometimes does delay the 75. Lewisham does have one of the worst traffic systems in South East London as does Catford & Croydon. The 75 is on a temporary timetable at the moment which explains the x13 headway. I suspect it'll be on temporary timetables for a while given the years of building work in Lewisham affecting the road layout and then the rebuilding of West Croydon bus station. That'll be followed by years of rebuilding in central Croydon. It's up to TfL to fund any extra resource and they presumably don't want to as happens so often elsewhere on the network these days. |
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Post by snoggle on Jun 25, 2014 9:41:29 GMT
Well I expected a reaction about the 109 and I wasn't disappointed. I think the problem, yet again, is money. I agree the 109 is busy but the logical time to have tried to increase the service was when it was retendered due to the competitive pressure. I can only assume that TfL took the view that there is not enough money in the budget to expand it as it would be relatively expensive given it's already high frequency. A quick look at Londonbusroutes.net shows that to move from every 6 mins to every 5 mins would take an extra 5 buses which is not cheap. Therefore they have opted to wait until they get some extra cash from external parties. I think TfL are taking the line of trying to spread what money they have on routes where there is overcrowding but 1-2 buses will make a difference. Witness the W19, S1, 406 and 418 changes of late. I think TfL have missed a trick with the 109. With new bus designs being available from the Autumn the obvious solution would have been the 11.1m MMC with a capacity in mid 90s its like adding 2 or 3 extra buses. (And from early 2015 can also get longer metrodecker with 100+ capacity) The 406, 418 didn't have that option as the new higher capacity buses weren't available by this weekend, and only one route was tendered so QL could have got compensation if DD1-5 needed to be replaced Leon Daniels is "on the record" as saying longer double deckers (on 2 axles) are needed in London and will be bought. I agree the 109 is an excellent candidate for such vehicles. I wonder if Abellio will do what you suggest but start the route with surplus buses from elsewhere in their / other people's fleet? - all they need to store them for a number of months and hire some buses to get themselves through the transition. Not ideal but could be a viable way forward (nb - I have not checked any numbers for displaced / spare buses before people post a reply and say my suggestion is impossible / not viable / bonkers  ). |
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Post by vjaska on Jun 25, 2014 12:07:02 GMT
I think TfL have missed a trick with the 109. With new bus designs being available from the Autumn the obvious solution would have been the 11.1m MMC with a capacity in mid 90s its like adding 2 or 3 extra buses. (And from early 2015 can also get longer metrodecker with 100+ capacity) The 406, 418 didn't have that option as the new higher capacity buses weren't available by this weekend, and only one route was tendered so QL could have got compensation if DD1-5 needed to be replaced Leon Daniels is "on the record" as saying longer double deckers (on 2 axles) are needed in London and will be bought. I agree the 109 is an excellent candidate for such vehicles. I wonder if Abellio will do what you suggest but start the route with surplus buses from elsewhere in their / other people's fleet? - all they need to store them for a number of months and hire some buses to get themselves through the transition. Not ideal but could be a viable way forward (nb - I have not checked any numbers for displaced / spare buses before people post a reply and say my suggestion is impossible / not viable / bonkers ). I think that actually could be done if they really would go for that option - maybe move some of the 10.7m Volvo Gemini's to the 109 from WL and hire buses to WL until the longer length vehicles are delivered. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2014 14:19:37 GMT
What is the longest length likely to be considered on two axles - 11.3m-ish? Presumably 12m+ would remain exclusively tri-axle territory.
I know this is a bus forum so really dont want to go completely off topic, but Croydens public transport woes frankly come from the fact its been trying to move for 50-odd years by bus a tube lines' worth of passengers. On top of that, Tramlink is effectively a light rail scheme too cheap to afford a fully segregated route. There will come a point in the future where such tunneling must become inevitable.
Could something radical be done in short-medium term, like a congestion charge zone?
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I think the problem, yet again, is money. I agree the 109 is busy but the logical time to have tried to increase the service was when it was retendered due to the competitive pressure. I can only assume that TfL took the view that there is not enough money in the budget to expand it as it would be relatively expensive given it's already high frequency. A quick look at Londonbusroutes.net shows that to move from every 6 mins to every 5 mins would take an extra 5 buses which is not cheap. Therefore they have opted to wait until they get some extra cash from external parties. I think TfL are taking the line of trying to spread what money they have on routes where there is overcrowding but 1-2 buses will make a difference. Witness the W19, S1, 406 and 418 changes of late.
The pointless set of lights near Drayton Road can go as well, replace it with a roundabout. The roads near Fairfield Halls could do with some attention as well. The roundabout can be a bit intimidating and tricky for new drivers 
).