Upcoming changes

[southlondonbus]

Jul 20, 2024 6:52:33 GMT DE20106 said:

Jul 20, 2024 3:08:08 GMT londonbuses said:

Summary of Upcoming Changes

Changes from Saturday 20th July:

New timetable with frequency changes - 17 (increased from every 15 mins to every 12 mins on Sundays, earlier journeys added on Sundays).
New timetable with minor changes - 280, C11, W8
Temporary timetable removed - 201
School holiday timetables begin - 18, 20, 27, 32, 39, 51, 53, 54, 60, 61, 62, 63, 66, 69, 70, 71, 75, 77, 81, 83, 86, 89, 90, 92, 96, 99, 103, 107, 108, 109, 110, 111, 113, 114, 119, 122, 127, 130, 131, 132, 134, 139, 140, 142, 143, 146, 150, 151, 154, 156, 157, 160, 161, 163, 164, 173, 174, 179, 181, 182, 183, 184, 185, 186, 191, 197, 204, 208, 210, 212, 213, 216, 222, 227, 229, 233, 240, 245, 248, 251, 252, 256, 257, 261, 262, 263, 264, 265, 267, 270, 273, 275, 278, 280, 281, 282, 285, 287, 290, 292, 293, 294, 296, 297, 302, 313, 314, 321, 326, 328, 331, 336, 337, 347, 352, 353, 358, 363, 364, 367, 368, 370, 371, 372, 375, 384, 385, 386, 396, 397, 401, 404, 406, 407, 412, 417, 418, 422, 432, 433, 434, 439, 444, 450, 463, 464, 466, 467, 473, 481, 483, 490, 493, 498, 499, B11, B14, B16, C10, C11, D3, E2, E8, EL1, H2, H3, H12, H13, H18, H19, H22, H28, H32, H37, H91, H98, K1, K2, K3, P5, P12, S2, S3, S4, SL6, SL7, W6, W8, W11, W13, W15.

Changes from Saturday 27th July:

New timetable with frequency changes - 388 (two extra late evening journeys towards London Bridge), 394 (decreased from every 12 mins to every 15 mins on Mon-Sat daytimes, increased from every 20 mins to every 15 mins on Sun daytimes)
Temporary timetable introduced - 266
Temporary timetable removed - 368, EL1, EL2, EL3
Other changes - 117 (stop change at West Middlesex Hospital)

Changes from Saturday 3rd August:

New timetable with minor changes - 19, N19
Temporary timetable introduced - 49, 297, E9
Temporary timetable removed - 118, 200

Changes from Saturday 10th August:

Temporary timetable removed - 127, 195, 427, 482, E5, H32, S1

Changes from Saturday 17th August:

New timetable with frequency changes - 243 (increased from every 8-9 mins to every 8 mins on Sat daytimes, increased from every 10 mins to every 8 mins on Sun daytimes), W7 (decreased from every 3-4 mins to every 4-5 mins at peak times, increased from every 6 mins to every 5 mins on Mon-Sat daytimes, early morning frequencies increased on Sat/Sun, earlier journeys added on Sundays).
New timetable with minor changes - 170

Changes from Saturday 24th August:

New timetable with frequency changes - 5 (early morning frequency increased from every 10 mins to every 8 mins), 50 (early morning, evening and Sunday service increased from every 20 mins to every 15 mins, earlier journeys added on Sundays), 115 (early morning frequency increased from every 10 mins to every 8 mins), 255 (early morning, evening and Sunday service increased from every 20 mins to every 15 mins, earlier journeys added on Sundays).
New timetable with minor changes - 15, 130, 194, 250, 320, 410, N15, N250

Wow that W7 is quite an impressive change actually. Crazy that a cut from 17 vehicles to 11 can still operate the W7 at every 4 to 5 minutes (but it makes sense considering it was around 18bph down to around 12/13bph). And also that’s hardly a frequency to complain about, if someone gonna complain about a service being cut to already an insanely high frequency then they really need to get out more and see some
bigger issues in the world 😂. But better than that, an increase at other off peak times. A much better change than the initial W7 PVR cut ominously showed

Then you’ve got all the other minor frequency increases from 24th August.

Finally looks like we’re into more positive times for the bus network, with genuine attempts to stimulate extra usage than to just slash routes left right and centre

I agree. 4 to 5 mins particularly on a Monday and a Friday still is still a great freq and 5 mins daytimes aswell.

[evergreenadam]

Route 298 to be double decked in new tender award.

[redexpress]

Jul 20, 2024 6:52:33 GMT DE20106 said:

Jul 20, 2024 3:08:08 GMT londonbuses said:

Changes from Saturday 17th August:

New timetable with frequency changes - 243 (increased from every 8-9 mins to every 8 mins on Sat daytimes, increased from every 10 mins to every 8 mins on Sun daytimes), W7 (decreased from every 3-4 mins to every 4-5 mins at peak times, increased from every 6 mins to every 5 mins on Mon-Sat daytimes, early morning frequencies increased on Sat/Sun, earlier journeys added on Sundays).
New timetable with minor changes - 170

Wow that W7 is quite an impressive change actually. Crazy that a cut from 17 vehicles to 11 can still operate the W7 at every 4 to 5 minutes (but it makes sense considering it was around 18bph down to around 12/13bph). And also that’s hardly a frequency to complain about, if someone gonna complain about a service being cut to already an insanely high frequency then they really need to get out more and see some
bigger issues in the world 😂. But better than that, an increase at other off peak times. A much better change than the initial W7 PVR cut ominously showed

Then you’ve got all the other minor frequency increases from 24th August.

Finally looks like we’re into more positive times for the bus network, with genuine attempts to stimulate extra usage than to just slash routes left right and centre

Yes, the off-peak increase on the W7 is very welcome. The peak frequency was always dictated by commuter traffic so it's no surprise to see it cut. But the route has been getting much busier during the daytime as work patterns have changed. In the afternoons (before the peak frequency kicks in) I've seen buses leave people behind. I just hope the new schedule is resilient enough to deal with congestion in the area. It's not uncommon to see buses turned at Crouch End, despite the short length of the route.

[Busboy105]

Jul 20, 2024 7:48:07 GMT evergreenadam said:

Route 298 to be double decked in new tender award.

To be fair, I've seen more double deckers on the 298 since it's last retender

[southlondonbus]

Jul 20, 2024 7:53:53 GMT redexpress said:

Jul 20, 2024 6:52:33 GMT DE20106 said:

Wow that W7 is quite an impressive change actually. Crazy that a cut from 17 vehicles to 11 can still operate the W7 at every 4 to 5 minutes (but it makes sense considering it was around 18bph down to around 12/13bph). And also that’s hardly a frequency to complain about, if someone gonna complain about a service being cut to already an insanely high frequency then they really need to get out more and see some
bigger issues in the world 😂. But better than that, an increase at other off peak times. A much better change than the initial W7 PVR cut ominously showed

Then you’ve got all the other minor frequency increases from 24th August.

Finally looks like we’re into more positive times for the bus network, with genuine attempts to stimulate extra usage than to just slash routes left right and centre

Yes, the off-peak increase on the W7 is very welcome. The peak frequency was always dictated by commuter traffic so it's no surprise to see it cut. But the route has been getting much busier during the daytime as work patterns have changed. In the afternoons (before the peak frequency kicks in) I've seen buses leave people behind. I just hope the new schedule is resilient enough to deal with congestion in the area. It's not uncommon to see buses turned at Crouch End, despite the short length of the route.

Also the fact it's got 20mph zone along the whole route has slowed it a bit.

But I agree about off peak. Iv used it Saturday afternoons and it's been full due to no doubt all the bars and restaurants etc in Crouch End and Muswell Hill.

[mondraker275]

TfL should also be banging on to boroughs to increase their weekend bus lane operation hours which will only further help the increases in weekend demand.

[gwiwer]

Jul 20, 2024 9:15:21 GMT mondraker275 said:

TfL should also be banging on to boroughs to increase their weekend bus lane operation hours which will only further help the increases in weekend demand.

TfL could also usefully "bang on" to certain boroughs about restoring 30mph speed limits on key roads used by major bus routes.  TfL controls a few of those; the boroughs control the rest.  20mph limits are killing bus operation by reducing average speeds to the absurd and making it impossible and unlawful to overtake a slow-moving cyclist.  Cyclists, incidentally, are not subject to speed restrictions because their machines are not required to befitted with speedometers but most seem to average around 13 - 14mph.  

If buses are to remain competitive as a transport option they need to be freed from some of the restrictions they currently endure and offer better trip times.  That will also allow fewer buses to provide the  same level of service or the same number of buses to provide an enhanced service.  Either way that should be a win for TfL and passengers.  

[ronnie]

Jul 20, 2024 11:01:37 GMT gwiwer said:

Jul 20, 2024 9:15:21 GMT mondraker275 said:

TfL should also be banging on to boroughs to increase their weekend bus lane operation hours which will only further help the increases in weekend demand.

TfL could also usefully "bang on" to certain boroughs about restoring 30mph speed limits on key roads used by major bus routes.  TfL controls a few of those; the boroughs control the rest.  20mph limits are killing bus operation by reducing average speeds to the absurd and making it impossible and unlawful to overtake a slow-moving cyclist.  Cyclists, incidentally, are not subject to speed restrictions because their machines are not required to befitted with speedometers but most seem to average around 13 - 14mph.  

If buses are to remain competitive as a transport option they need to be freed from some of the restrictions they currently endure and offer better trip times.  That will also allow fewer buses to provide the  same level of service or the same number of buses to provide an enhanced service.  Either way that should be a win for TfL and passengers.  

I think 20mph removal from a fair number of areas (if not all) would be highly helpful. I can understand 20mph zones outside of schools / hospital areas or very heavily congested zones; but having it on dual carriageways like the A2 heading into London is just ludicrous. This is no way helps buses

Rip out the 20mph schemes and you will see bus usage increase

Given I use public transport everyday I am quite keen to see slightly higher frequencies as buses are now getting very crowded. Of course the next few weeks will see a bit of a lull owing to school holidays - but in general.
I can now see the 132/286/335 (my locals which i use) much busier than they were a year ago. The 132 in particular is only every 10 min in the peaks (and drops to 12 quite quickly) and it’s usually standing room only; have been squashed against the door 4-5 times in the past couple of weeks (bus not stopping between Kidbrooke and North Greenwich!)

[wirewiper]

Jul 20, 2024 11:01:37 GMT gwiwer said:

Jul 20, 2024 9:15:21 GMT mondraker275 said:

TfL should also be banging on to boroughs to increase their weekend bus lane operation hours which will only further help the increases in weekend demand.

TfL could also usefully "bang on" to certain boroughs about restoring 30mph speed limits on key roads used by major bus routes.  TfL controls a few of those; the boroughs control the rest.  20mph limits are killing bus operation by reducing average speeds to the absurd and making it impossible and unlawful to overtake a slow-moving cyclist.  Cyclists, incidentally, are not subject to speed restrictions because their machines are not required to befitted with speedometers but most seem to average around 13 - 14mph.  

If buses are to remain competitive as a transport option they need to be freed from some of the restrictions they currently endure and offer better trip times.  That will also allow fewer buses to provide the  same level of service or the same number of buses to provide an enhanced service.  Either way that should be a win for TfL and passengers.  

The Welsh Government's guidelines on 20mph roads has been, shall we say. modified. The guidance is that 20mph should remain in force where pedestrians or cyclists mix "in a frequemt and planned manner" with motor vehicles. So for example in shopping areas, or near schools, colleges and hospitals. However 30mph could be used on strategic roads that are used by freight, larger vehicles and important bus corridors. This sounds like a good balance to me. 

Bus operators in Wales have been vocal about the 20mph limits and have suggested at least fifty locations where 30mph rather than 20mph would be an appropriate speed limit. 

[evergreenadam]

Jul 20, 2024 11:22:53 GMT ronnie said:

Jul 20, 2024 11:01:37 GMT gwiwer said:

TfL could also usefully "bang on" to certain boroughs about restoring 30mph speed limits on key roads used by major bus routes.  TfL controls a few of those; the boroughs control the rest.  20mph limits are killing bus operation by reducing average speeds to the absurd and making it impossible and unlawful to overtake a slow-moving cyclist.  Cyclists, incidentally, are not subject to speed restrictions because their machines are not required to befitted with speedometers but most seem to average around 13 - 14mph.  

If buses are to remain competitive as a transport option they need to be freed from some of the restrictions they currently endure and offer better trip times.  That will also allow fewer buses to provide the  same level of service or the same number of buses to provide an enhanced service.  Either way that should be a win for TfL and passengers.  

I think 20mph removal from a fair number of areas (if not all) would be highly helpful. I can understand 20mph zones outside of schools / hospital areas or very heavily congested zones; but having it on dual carriageways like the A2 heading into London is just ludicrous. This is no way helps buses

Rip out the 20mph schemes and you will see bus usage increase

Given I use public transport everyday I am quite keen to see slightly higher frequencies as buses are now getting very crowded. Of course the next few weeks will see a bit of a lull owing to school holidays - but in general.
I can now see the 132/286/335 (my locals which i use) much busier than they were a year ago. The 132 in particular is only every 10 min in the peaks (and drops to 12 quite quickly) and it’s usually standing room only; have been squashed against the door 4-5 times in the past couple of weeks (bus not stopping between Kidbrooke and North Greenwich!)

Was that during the peak or off-peak?

Should the 132 be amended to run non-stop between Kidbrooke and North Greenwich anyway?

[vjaska]

Jul 20, 2024 11:01:37 GMT gwiwer said:

Jul 20, 2024 9:15:21 GMT mondraker275 said:

TfL should also be banging on to boroughs to increase their weekend bus lane operation hours which will only further help the increases in weekend demand.

TfL could also usefully "bang on" to certain boroughs about restoring 30mph speed limits on key roads used by major bus routes.  TfL controls a few of those; the boroughs control the rest.  20mph limits are killing bus operation by reducing average speeds to the absurd and making it impossible and unlawful to overtake a slow-moving cyclist.  Cyclists, incidentally, are not subject to speed restrictions because their machines are not required to befitted with speedometers but most seem to average around 13 - 14mph.  

If buses are to remain competitive as a transport option they need to be freed from some of the restrictions they currently endure and offer better trip times.  That will also allow fewer buses to provide the  same level of service or the same number of buses to provide an enhanced service.  Either way that should be a win for TfL and passengers.  

Agree entirely but TfL won’t do that because they have implemented 20mph schemes on the roads they control too in many parts of London so my borough (Lambeth) is 20mph no matter what road you drive down.

[abellion]

The 20 zones on the 155 are ridiculous, wide open roads especially between Elephant and Clapham North where it’s just crawling. I haven’t used N155 since they placed all the cams, that route could easily speed most of the way but now I’m guessing they’ve had to slow down tediously at multiple points in fear of the cameras

[gwiwer]

Jul 20, 2024 17:02:30 GMT abellion said:

The 20 zones on the 155 are ridiculous, wide open roads especially between Elephant and Clapham North where it’s just crawling. I haven’t used N155 since they placed all the cams, that route could easily speed most of the way but now I’m guessing they’ve had to slow down tediously at multiple points in fear of the cameras

As a fairly regular user of the N22 I am in a position to say that most drivers on those journeys I used were more than happy to drive along at around 25 - 30mph through the 20mph zones.  They needed to do this to keep time; on the one occasion a (possibly unfamiliar) driver was in charge we stuck rigidly to 20mph all the way from Fulwell and were already a few minutes late by Richmond.  Yes there are cameras along that stretch.  What they are set to I don't know,  neither do I know the 2024 interpretation of the rules.  50 years earlier when I was a regular on the N98 (Victoria - Romford at that time) the 30mph limit was universally disregarded to the extent that when police were around they actually waved night buses through red lights at times.  The theory being that these are professionally-driven vehicles moving Londoners to a tight timetable.  

[Dad91]

Jul 21, 2024 15:52:56 GMT gwiwer said:

Jul 20, 2024 17:02:30 GMT abellion said:

The 20 zones on the 155 are ridiculous, wide open roads especially between Elephant and Clapham North where it’s just crawling. I haven’t used N155 since they placed all the cams, that route could easily speed most of the way but now I’m guessing they’ve had to slow down tediously at multiple points in fear of the cameras

As a fairly regular user of the N22 I am in a position to say that most drivers on those journeys I used were more than happy to drive along at around 25 - 30mph through the 20mph zones.  They needed to do this to keep time; on the one occasion a (possibly unfamiliar) driver was in charge we stuck rigidly to 20mph all the way from Fulwell and were already a few minutes late by Richmond.  Yes there are cameras along that stretch.  What they are set to I don't know,  neither do I know the 2024 interpretation of the rules.  50 years earlier when I was a regular on the N98 (Victoria - Romford at that time) the 30mph limit was universally disregarded to the extent that when police were around they actually waved night buses through red lights at times.  The theory being that these are professionally-driven vehicles moving Londoners to a tight timetable.  

were I live Brentford Kew bridge road coming to Waterman centre there camera speed set to 30mph won't be surprised changed to 20mph when C9 lane over

[ronnie]

Jul 20, 2024 11:59:06 GMT evergreenadam said:

Jul 20, 2024 11:22:53 GMT ronnie said:

I think 20mph removal from a fair number of areas (if not all) would be highly helpful. I can understand 20mph zones outside of schools / hospital areas or very heavily congested zones; but having it on dual carriageways like the A2 heading into London is just ludicrous. This is no way helps buses

Rip out the 20mph schemes and you will see bus usage increase

Given I use public transport everyday I am quite keen to see slightly higher frequencies as buses are now getting very crowded. Of course the next few weeks will see a bit of a lull owing to school holidays - but in general.
I can now see the 132/286/335 (my locals which i use) much busier than they were a year ago. The 132 in particular is only every 10 min in the peaks (and drops to 12 quite quickly) and it’s usually standing room only; have been squashed against the door 4-5 times in the past couple of weeks (bus not stopping between Kidbrooke and North Greenwich!)

Was that during the peak or off-peak?

Should the 132 be amended to run non-stop between Kidbrooke and North Greenwich anyway?

This was during peaks but I have by now used most buses between 7am and 8:30am; have been squashed against the door quite a few times both early (7am) and the post 8am ones. What the 132 needs in the morning is a school route to the st Mary Magdalene Coe school in North Greenwich; at least one bus is fully rammed as it’s full of school students. So either a school route or (better) one additional bus journey in the morning

In the evenings the 132 usually leaves North Greenwich completely rammed ; at times taking 4-5 min to board (and it’s a free for all!). People even get left behind at times so an enhanced frequency would be a big help. Doesn’t help that it’s only every 10 min, quickly dropping to 12 and then 15 min

The next few weeks won’t be representative owing to school holidays