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Post by southlondon413 on May 26, 2024 19:41:07 GMT
I wonder if Govia/Thameslink would have been quite happy if the Sutton to Wimbledon section had been handed over to the Tram. That way they would probably have made Wimbledon the terminus via Tooting either turned them at Sutton via Hackbridge or taken it further to Epsom. I think the issue with the tram taking over the Sutton Loop is they would likely be capacity issues - personally, I'd prefer Southern to take it over but I'm sure others on the loop may prefer the links to North London they receive through Thameslink and that would likely result in having to terminate these trains at Blackfriars which probably doesn't have the room for more terminating trains unless they extend the Thameslink services that terminate at Blackfriars from Sevenoaks & Orpington The Thameslink connection to St Pancras, Blackfriars and the city is much better than another Southern connection to Clapham and Victoria. Incidentally Southern did used to serve the loop but I think they discontinued their service during the pandemic.
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Post by vjaska on May 26, 2024 21:33:14 GMT
I think the issue with the tram taking over the Sutton Loop is they would likely be capacity issues - personally, I'd prefer Southern to take it over but I'm sure others on the loop may prefer the links to North London they receive through Thameslink and that would likely result in having to terminate these trains at Blackfriars which probably doesn't have the room for more terminating trains unless they extend the Thameslink services that terminate at Blackfriars from Sevenoaks & Orpington The Thameslink connection to St Pancras, Blackfriars and the city is much better than another Southern connection to Clapham and Victoria. Incidentally Southern did used to serve the loop but I think they discontinued their service during the pandemic. My idea doesn't change the current routeing other than terminating all trains at Blackfriars and all trains operated by Southern instead.
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Post by southlondon413 on May 26, 2024 21:46:46 GMT
The Thameslink connection to St Pancras, Blackfriars and the city is much better than another Southern connection to Clapham and Victoria. Incidentally Southern did used to serve the loop but I think they discontinued their service during the pandemic. My idea doesn't change the current routeing other than terminating all trains at Blackfriars and all trains operated by Southern instead. In that case having either Thameslink or Southern running them wouldn’t bother me but terminating all the trains at Blackfriars isn’t a good idea though. If the service had to be changed from the south a better idea would be to redesign the service as Blackfriars to London Bridge service via the Sutton loop. It would better connect both Sutton and Wimbledon with other south London destinations and provide both with a service that doesn’t currently exist, although it does on a weekend for Sutton.
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Post by gwiwer on May 26, 2024 21:57:37 GMT
I wonder if Govia/Thameslink would have been quite happy if the Sutton to Wimbledon section had been handed over to the Tram. That way they would probably have made Wimbledon the terminus via Tooting either turned them at Sutton via Hackbridge or taken it further to Epsom. I think the issue with the tram taking over the Sutton Loop is they would likely be capacity issues - personally, I'd prefer Southern to take it over but I'm sure others on the loop may prefer the links to North London they receive through Thameslink and that would likely result in having to terminate these trains at Blackfriars which probably doesn't have the room for more terminating trains unless they extend the Thameslink services that terminate at Blackfriars from Sevenoaks & Orpington Since Blackfriars was rebuilt with only two terminal platforms - to allow the Thameslink service through to the Snow Hill route - it no longer has capacity for any more terminating services. If Southern was to take over the Sutton loop (a/k/a Wall of Death) route there would be capacity from Victoria via the slow line spur at Streatham but probably not to London Bridge. The latter has capacity issues via both approach routes. Anyone destined for the City would be inconvenienced as there is no other easy alternative. Even changing at Wimbledon for Waterloo does not offer an easy City option; not only are SWR suburban trains packed by that stage in their journey but Waterloo is still not in the Square Mile. On the other side of the core where would one run those trains to if not around the loop? Or, if they were withdrawn altogether, which others would make the stops in lieu? A swap could take place with some Blackfriars terminators running through the core and perhaps linking with the St. Albans stoppers which then makes space for Wall of Death trains in the terminal bays but at the cost of introducing more conflicting moves across the throat at Blackfriars which might not be possible.
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Post by vjaska on May 26, 2024 22:01:23 GMT
I think the issue with the tram taking over the Sutton Loop is they would likely be capacity issues - personally, I'd prefer Southern to take it over but I'm sure others on the loop may prefer the links to North London they receive through Thameslink and that would likely result in having to terminate these trains at Blackfriars which probably doesn't have the room for more terminating trains unless they extend the Thameslink services that terminate at Blackfriars from Sevenoaks & Orpington Since Blackfriars was rebuilt with only two terminal platforms - to allow the Thameslink service through to the Snow Hill route - it no longer has capacity for any more terminating services. If Southern was to take over the Sutton loop (a/k/a Wall of Death) route there would be capacity from Victoria via the slow line spur at Streatham but probably not to London Bridge. The latter has capacity issues via both approach routes. Anyone destined for the City would be inconvenienced as there is no other easy alternative. Even changing at Wimbledon for Waterloo does not offer an easy City option; not only are SWR suburban trains packed by that stage in their journey but Waterloo is still not in the Square Mile. On the other side of the core where would one run those trains to if not around the loop? Or, if they were withdrawn altogether, which others would make the stops in lieu? A swap could take place with some Blackfriars terminators running through the core and perhaps linking with the St. Albans stoppers which then makes space for Wall of Death trains in the terminal bays but at the cost of introducing more conflicting moves across the throat at Blackfriars which might not be possible. Oh my idea certainly has holes in it but the basic premise was to send the services from Orpington & Sevenoaks north instead of the current Sutton loop services.
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Post by southlondonbus on May 26, 2024 22:50:06 GMT
The Thameslink connection to St Pancras, Blackfriars and the city is much better than another Southern connection to Clapham and Victoria. Incidentally Southern did used to serve the loop but I think they discontinued their service during the pandemic. My idea doesn't change the current routeing other than terminating all trains at Blackfriars and all trains operated by Southern instead. That was proposed so that all trains through the central section would be 10 car long which would have been fine for the via Hackbridge route but the platforms at the other station were too short and the low demand didn't justify lengthening them.
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Post by gwiwer on May 27, 2024 12:44:25 GMT
No Thameslink trains are 10 cars in length. They are either 8-car or 12-car. The Sutton loop services are worked by 8-car units because of the platform length and lower passenger levels at those stations generally. The 8-cars also work the Rainham services, some Horsham services and those terminating at Kings Cross suburban (platforms 9 or 11) which are only 8-car in length. 12-car units work the Brighton line services and those from Kings Cross platforms 0 - 8
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Post by PGAT on May 27, 2024 22:30:46 GMT
The Southern service between East Croydon and Watford Junction is very well used. To remove it would result in even more pressure on the already overloaded Overground service to Willesden Junction (which cannot be increased as the high-level lines are already at full capacity) and force a change for those travelling north. It is a popular option for those travelling between Gatwick and WCML destinations who can obtain a cheaper fare "not via London Terminals" in many cases though they may require an extra change of trains. Southern staff Wembley Central's semi-fast platforms for their services which may be a cost they would wish to avoid but those calls are themselves popular. The one-time Brighton - Rugby service was a water-testing exercise as much as anything. Thameslink had a dream to go from "everywhere to anywhere" but the planned Channel-ports to north-of-London services never started. Rolling stock was better employed elsewhere on busier services. I used the Southern service numerous times from different points north of Watford and found it largely empty until (or north of) Watford Junction but busy thereafter through the core. The conductor was very surprised when I boarded at Berkhamsted on one occasion and offered a ticket to Selhurst! It serves a useful purpose, only now requires three units and a handful of crews and maintains useful traction knowledge for AC operation. It should be kept. Really I think it should be a Thameslink service, even though it doesn’t pass through the core, 8 car 700’s would be ideal for the West London Line with the patronage it gets and it could also open the door to extend that service down to Gatwick Airport/Three Bridges, restoring a direct link between the WCML and Gatwick again. Extensions down South wouldn't really viable. You would have to sacrifice stops between Clapham and East Croydon to speed up the journey which wouldn't be popular as they receive alot of patronage. Additionally it would necessitate a crossover to the fast lines at Balham and there isn't really capacity available to justify this conflicting movement
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Post by PGAT on May 27, 2024 22:32:18 GMT
I think the configuration is fine as it is, but there is alot of wasted potential with current frequencies. 2tph to Shepherd's Bush should be the bare minimum but 2tph to Watford could definitely be justified as well
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Post by gwiwer on May 28, 2024 10:30:23 GMT
I think the configuration is fine as it is, but there is alot of wasted potential with current frequencies. 2tph to Shepherd's Bush should be the bare minimum but 2tph to Watford could definitely be justified as well Track capacity is an issue as well. The WLL is at near-full capacity now. LOROL would like to be able to increase the service but cannot. If Southern took an additional path through Shepherd's Bush it may be the one reserved for freight. There is also an issue of conflicting moves at Wembley with the low-level route then having to be set up twice an hour blocking semi-fast main line and freight services. Longer trains could be an answer but the real need is to offer more peak-hour capacity. IIRC the turnback used at Watford Junction cannot accommodate an 8-car train therefore Southern is restricted to 5-cars maximum using a 377/7 unit.
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Post by kmkcheng on May 28, 2024 10:39:55 GMT
Track capacity is an issue as well. The WLL is at near-full capacity now. LOROL would like to be able to increase the service but cannot. If Southern took an additional path through Shepherd's Bush it may be the one reserved for freight. There is also an issue of conflicting moves at Wembley with the low-level route then having to be set up twice an hour blocking semi-fast main line and freight services. Longer trains could be an answer but the real need is to offer more peak-hour capacity. IIRC the turnback used at Watford Junction cannot accommodate an 8-car train therefore Southern is restricted to 5-cars maximum using a 377/7 unit. The Watford Junction turn back platform can accommodate 12-car trains so length shouldn’t be an issue
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Post by PGAT on May 28, 2024 10:51:42 GMT
I thought Southern had a reserved path for a second train per hour although that may have changed in recent timetables. They were certainly available pre-pandemic as there were several peak extras running. Trains longer than 8 coaches cannot be used because they would block the junction at Clapham Junction
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Post by gwiwer on May 28, 2024 11:10:46 GMT
I thought Southern had a reserved path for a second train per hour although that may have changed in recent timetables. They were certainly available pre-pandemic as there were several peak extras running. Trains longer than 8 coaches cannot be used because they would block the junction at Clapham Junction There were a couple of extras in each peak pre-Covid but AIUI Southern relinquished the paths some of which have now been taken on by LOROL. They may not yet be back to full driver establishment as it has taken significant time to restore the full main line services. Only next week do the Littlehampton-via-Hove services return to half-hourly all day for example. Resourcing what amounts to a single round trip by each crew and unit in the peaks is costly; the timings don't allow for one unit and one crew to make two round trips in the same peak. LOROL used to run four-an-hour on the Willesden - Clapham leg but now manage five at the busiest times. When no Southern service is due it can be quicker to change at Willesden for Wembley Central despite the distance between platforms and the change in levels.
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Post by gwiwer on May 28, 2024 11:13:14 GMT
I thought Southern had a reserved path for a second train per hour although that may have changed in recent timetables. They were certainly available pre-pandemic as there were several peak extras running. Trains longer than 8 coaches cannot be used because they would block the junction at Clapham Junction Even pre-Covid when 8-car trains were used they were not filled to capacity at any time. They were heavily loaded for about the front six but with space in the rear two. This from my own knowledge as former station staff at Clapham. Whilst there were additional trips at that time that no longer run to Watford there are some extras on the Overground service covering most requirements.
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Post by PGAT on May 28, 2024 11:23:43 GMT
Also I have heard news that a direct peak service from Anerley and Penge West to London Bridge will be restored from December
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