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Post by Unorm on Nov 24, 2015 16:45:13 GMT
So the consultation has come... Route 35 to be 24-hours and have a 7-8 mins frequency (Weekend nights) between Shoreditch and Brixton, and Brixton to Clapham Junction to have a 15 min frequency. Weekday nights frequency to be every 20. Interesting how demand has increased 70-75% since 2010 on weekend nights and TCR to Shoreditch section would be chopped off. consultations.tfl.gov.uk/buses/35-n35
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Post by snoggle on Nov 24, 2015 17:20:23 GMT
So the consultation has come... Route 35 to be 24-hours and have a 7-8 mins frequency (Weekend nights) between Shoreditch and Brixton, and Brixton to Clapham Junction to have a 15 min frequency. Weekday nights frequency to be every 20. Interesting how demand has increased 70-75% since 2010 on weekend nights and Old Street to Shoreditch section would be chopped off. consultations.tfl.gov.uk/buses/35-n35Could they make a bigger mess of things if they tried? They accept people are going to inconvenienced as a result of the lost link beyond Shoreditch but won't do anything about it apart from remove the link and force people to change. Last time I saw N55s on a weekend they were leaving TCR full so don't know where the spare capacity is. The more important issue, not discussed, is what demand there is from Old Street southbound. Why can't the N35 run on to there to properly serve that connection? It surely would not break the bank to run buses on that short distance so the Hoxton / Shoreditch area is fully served even though walking / drunken staggering distances aren't huge. I note the bizarre situation that the night 35 will be considerably more frequent at night between Brixton and Shoreditch than the daytime service. It is also disappointing that the 35 is not seeing any daytime improvements. It carries far more passengers (2.5m per annum more) than route 40 which has a much more frequent daytime service. I'd love to see the calculations that show that the 35 isn't overcrowded in comparison!
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Post by routew15 on Nov 24, 2015 17:54:19 GMT
Lame excuse buses that don't not need to serve the fringes of the route could be curtailed, which is what is going to be done anyways under the new Night 35. Absolutely ridiculous proposal. Hope this idea will be canned along with the 436 & 452 proposals.
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Post by vjaska on Nov 24, 2015 18:47:39 GMT
So the consultation has come... Route 35 to be 24-hours and have a 7-8 mins frequency (Weekend nights) between Shoreditch and Brixton, and Brixton to Clapham Junction to have a 15 min frequency. Weekday nights frequency to be every 20. Interesting how demand has increased 70-75% since 2010 on weekend nights and Old Street to Shoreditch section would be chopped off. consultations.tfl.gov.uk/buses/35-n35Could they make a bigger mess of things if they tried? They accept people are going to inconvenienced as a result of the lost link beyond Shoreditch but won't do anything about it apart from remove the link and force people to change. Last time I saw N55s on a weekend they were leaving TCR full so don't know where the spare capacity is. The more important issue, not discussed, is what demand there is from Old Street southbound. Why can't the N35 run on to there to properly serve that connection? It surely would not break the bank to run buses on that short distance so the Hoxton / Shoreditch area is fully served even though walking / drunken staggering distances aren't huge. I note the bizarre situation that the night 35 will be considerably more frequent at night between Brixton and Shoreditch than the daytime service. It is also disappointing that the 35 is not seeing any daytime improvements. It carries far more passengers (2.5m per annum more) than route 40 which has a much more frequent daytime service. I'd love to see the calculations that show that the 35 isn't overcrowded in comparison! Don't worry, I'll be noting that in the consultation about a frequency increase as its busy between Clapham Junction & Elephant & Castle. Some of this down to the 37 which regularly crumbles resulting in the 35 taking the strain between Brixton & Clapham Junction.
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Post by 6HP502C on Nov 24, 2015 22:16:04 GMT
Having driven the N35 and being a South Londoner who actually uses it to get towards home after nights out, I'm glad another frequency increase will go in. But I'm fundamentally opposed to the routing element proposal in its current form. There are a few points of contention here; - 400 people a night is something like 10% - 12% of passenger trips for the whole route on weekend nights, the greater majority of which would be boarding along Old Street. It's not an insignificant proportion of people to inconvenience - especially when there are no alternative routes linking certain parts of the section in question to South London.
- The N35 is the only night route in the Old Street area which serves South London (specifically the Elephant, which is a major interchange point at night) - nothing else in the vicinity goes south of London Bridge, unless people are expected to stagger down to Liverpool Street or Farringdon. It starts getting busy at Old Street Station and is usually well loaded before the crowds pile on at Shoreditch High Street station. People who get the Northern Line into this area will find there's no direct route to get them back home, when a useful one has existed for many years.
- The day 35's loop around Shoreditch is inadequate for the market served at night. One of the main leisure areas in Shoreditch is along the Old Street, which would be wholly unserved by the southbound 35 under this proposal. The 35 starts at Shoreditch High Street, a stop that attracts revellers from Brick Lane and Aldgate, areas completely bereft of any night services heading south. Those out in Shoreditch/Hoxton Square would be most likely to use the current stop on the Old Street at Shoreditch Church, which will be lost under the proposal.
The N35 is the fastest bus to nowhere really - faster options are available between the West End/Elephant & Castle and Camberwell/Brixton/Clapham Common/Clapham Junction. Where it is most useful in terms of patronage is where it provides a unique link south from Shoreditch. As such, I'm not opposed to the section between Tottenham Court Road and Old Street being withdrawn. It's an anachronism of the night bus network and carries mostly fresh towards Shoreditch - rather busier westbound but the N55 should be able to cope - that is, when the service isn't disrupted by passenger v driver disputes or vomit related curtailments. If people have to walk too far to a bus stop (and that perception may be affected by alcohol and fatigue) they might not bother with the bus. Although I say this with a degree of jest, there is an element of the travelling public who will decide not to bother and will Uber it home instead. The alternative isn't particularly attractive - waiting for a 43 and interchanging on a windswept London Bridge, possibly having to take a third bus if the 35 or N133 doesn't take you straight home. Given the reliability issues caused by traffic in Shoreditch, the last needed is more minicabs speculatively clogging up those roads! A better idea would be start the night 35 service at the Old Street roundabout. If it can't stand at Old Street station, use the 135 stand. There is a market to be served which is at odds with the Shoreditch loop's bus stopping arrangements currently used by the 35. As for the remainder of the route, buses tend to lose a fair few passengers at Elephant & Castle southbound and are seldom packed heading south from Camberwell. No opposition to frequency cuts on the southern section, although it would be nice if the N35s actually made it to Clapham Junction once in a while - the section south of Clapham Common often does not see the advertised 5 bph service on weekends. The 35 needs an evening frequency increase. It runs every 15(!) minutes after 8pm, so the night bus is actually more frequent on weekends. After about 22:30 on Fridays and Saturdays, the 4bph provided aren't enough, particularly heading south from Shoreditch. The weeknight frequency increase is a nice touch, although it isn't particularly busy (the N68 could really use those buses instead and the 37 needs a 20 minute service too). There are other issues with the N35 which need sorting. The circuitous nature of the route regularly gives rise to a farcical situation where packed buses are ordered to tip out at London Bridge or the Elephant and run with no passengers to a point where the schedule can be picked up. The poor service between Clapham Common and Clapham Junction on weekends is the other. Once Go-Ahead take on the route, I suspect the use of shortcuts will stop happening!
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Post by vjaska on Nov 24, 2015 23:06:26 GMT
Having driven the N35 and being a South Londoner who actually uses it to get towards home after nights out, I'm glad another frequency increase will go in. But I'm fundamentally opposed to the routing element proposal in its current form. There are a few points of contention here; - 400 people a night is something like 10% - 12% of passenger trips for the whole route on weekend nights, the greater majority of which would be boarding along Old Street. It's not an insignificant proportion of people to inconvenience - especially when there are no alternative routes linking certain parts of the section in question to South London.
- The N35 is the only night route in the Old Street area which serves South London (specifically the Elephant, which is a major interchange point at night) - nothing else in the vicinity goes south of London Bridge, unless people are expected to stagger down to Liverpool Street or Farringdon. It starts getting busy at Old Street Station and is usually well loaded before the crowds pile on at Shoreditch High Street station. People who get the Northern Line into this area will find there's no direct route to get them back home, when a useful one has existed for many years.
- The day 35's loop around Shoreditch is inadequate for the market served at night. One of the main leisure areas in Shoreditch is along the Old Street, which would be wholly unserved by the southbound 35 under this proposal. The 35 starts at Shoreditch High Street, a stop that attracts revellers from Brick Lane and Aldgate, areas completely bereft of any night services heading south. Those out in Shoreditch/Hoxton Square would be most likely to use the current stop on the Old Street at Shoreditch Church, which will be lost under the proposal.
The N35 is the fastest bus to nowhere really - faster options are available between the West End/Elephant & Castle and Camberwell/Brixton/Clapham Common/Clapham Junction. Where it is most useful in terms of patronage is where it provides a unique link south from Shoreditch. As such, I'm not opposed to the section between Tottenham Court Road and Old Street being withdrawn. It's an anachronism of the night bus network and carries mostly fresh towards Shoreditch - rather busier westbound but the N55 should be able to cope - that is, when the service isn't disrupted by passenger v driver disputes or vomit related curtailments. If people have to walk too far to a bus stop (and that perception may be affected by alcohol and fatigue) they might not bother with the bus. Although I say this with a degree of jest, there is an element of the travelling public who will decide not to bother and will Uber it home instead. The alternative isn't particularly attractive - waiting for a 43 and interchanging on a windswept London Bridge, possibly having to take a third bus if the 35 or N133 doesn't take you straight home. Given the reliability issues caused by traffic in Shoreditch, the last needed is more minicabs speculatively clogging up those roads! A better idea would be start the night 35 service at the Old Street roundabout. If it can't stand at Old Street station, use the 135 stand. There is a market to be served which is at odds with the Shoreditch loop's bus stopping arrangements currently used by the 35. As for the remainder of the route, buses tend to lose a fair few passengers at Elephant & Castle southbound and are seldom packed heading south from Camberwell. No opposition to frequency cuts on the southern section, although it would be nice if the N35s actually made it to Clapham Junction once in a while - the section south of Clapham Common often does not see the advertised 5 bph service on weekends. The 35 needs an evening frequency increase. It runs every 15(!) minutes after 8pm, so the night bus is actually more frequent on weekends. After about 22:30 on Fridays and Saturdays, the 4bph provided aren't enough, particularly heading south from Shoreditch. The weeknight frequency increase is a nice touch, although it isn't particularly busy (the N68 could really use those buses instead and the 37 needs a 20 minute service too). There are other issues with the N35 which need sorting. The circuitous nature of the route regularly gives rise to a farcical situation where packed buses are ordered to tip out at London Bridge or the Elephant and run with no passengers to a point where the schedule can be picked up. The poor service between Clapham Common and Clapham Junction on weekends is the other. Once Go-Ahead take on the route, I suspect the use of shortcuts will stop happening! I can only really comment in regards of the N35 that the 37 is often picking up the slack of the big nightlife scene between Clapham Junction and Brixton when N35's go missing. The 20 minute frequency you propose for the 37 is certainly needed.
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Post by snoggle on Nov 24, 2015 23:47:20 GMT
Having driven the N35 and being a South Londoner who actually uses it to get towards home after nights out, I'm glad another frequency increase will go in. But I'm fundamentally opposed to the routing element proposal in its current form. There are a few points of contention here; I trust you will be responding to the consultation with your eloquent observations. TfL might pay attention to you.
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Post by First Hayes on Nov 25, 2015 1:12:43 GMT
One Word For The Weekend N35 'AWFUL!!' I've Driven It Many Times, And Personally, If The '35' Was Extended To OldStreetStation, This 24 Hour Route Wouldn't Be 'Too Bad'
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Post by 6HP502C on Nov 25, 2015 1:49:36 GMT
Having driven the N35 and being a South Londoner who actually uses it to get towards home after nights out, I'm glad another frequency increase will go in. But I'm fundamentally opposed to the routing element proposal in its current form. There are a few points of contention here; I trust you will be responding to the consultation with your eloquent observations. TfL might pay attention to you. For the first time I will submit a response - I feel strongly about this as a well used link is going to be withdrawn without replacement and there are no other routes in the vicinity (~900 metres) of Old Street Station that go to Elephant & Castle, or anywhere south of London Bridge or Waterloo. Old Street needs a night service towards the south to cater for the hordes of people who travel into the area on the Northern Line and Overground. More people get on at Shoreditch Fire Station and Shoreditch Church - the reason given for removing the service from these stops isn't very compelling at all. There's nothing to prevent this night 35 starting from Old Street. It'll be interesting to see just how many people respond to the consultation. Passenger feedback on the night bus network seems to be very thin on the ground, with problem routes like the N35 seeing no complaints about crowding over several years. Compared to the day network, the proportion of people using night buses is tiny and only a fraction of those are regular users who rely on them other than infrequent trips. I only hope the scheme is rethought to take into account those 400 people who do use the route west of Shoreditch.
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Post by 6HP502C on Nov 25, 2015 1:58:31 GMT
I can only really comment in regards of the N35 that the 37 is often picking up the slack of the big nightlife scene between Clapham Junction and Brixton when N35's go missing. The 20 minute frequency you propose for the 37 is certainly needed. There is that, but it has got its own band of longer distance travellers who tend to fill the upper deck on their way to the Bussey Building or some other attraction in Peckham. I think we're quite lucky, having the 37 and 345 to provide a service where the N35 fails to do so!
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Post by vjaska on Nov 25, 2015 2:01:11 GMT
I can only really comment in regards of the N35 that the 37 is often picking up the slack of the big nightlife scene between Clapham Junction and Brixton when N35's go missing. The 20 minute frequency you propose for the 37 is certainly needed. There is that, but it has got its own band of longer distance travellers who tend to fill the upper deck on their way to the Bussey Building or some other attraction in Peckham. I think we're quite lucky, having the 37 and 345 to provide a service where the N35 fails to do so! That's true although the problem with the 345 is it too 'round the houses' between Clapham Junction & Brixton as well as not serving the excellent pubs & bars on the P5 section of Coldharbour Lane & also the Electric (or Fridge Bar to others) - probably why the 37 at night can be quite busy.
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Post by M1104 on Nov 25, 2015 12:20:53 GMT
Having driven the N35 and being a South Londoner who actually uses it to get towards home after nights out, I'm glad another frequency increase will go in. But I'm fundamentally opposed to the routing element proposal in its current form. There are a few points of contention here; - 400 people a night is something like 10% - 12% of passenger trips for the whole route on weekend nights, the greater majority of which would be boarding along Old Street. It's not an insignificant proportion of people to inconvenience - especially when there are no alternative routes linking certain parts of the section in question to South London.
- The N35 is the only night route in the Old Street area which serves South London (specifically the Elephant, which is a major interchange point at night) - nothing else in the vicinity goes south of London Bridge, unless people are expected to stagger down to Liverpool Street or Farringdon. It starts getting busy at Old Street Station and is usually well loaded before the crowds pile on at Shoreditch High Street station. People who get the Northern Line into this area will find there's no direct route to get them back home, when a useful one has existed for many years.
- The day 35's loop around Shoreditch is inadequate for the market served at night. One of the main leisure areas in Shoreditch is along the Old Street, which would be wholly unserved by the southbound 35 under this proposal. The 35 starts at Shoreditch High Street, a stop that attracts revellers from Brick Lane and Aldgate, areas completely bereft of any night services heading south. Those out in Shoreditch/Hoxton Square would be most likely to use the current stop on the Old Street at Shoreditch Church, which will be lost under the proposal.
The 35 needs an evening frequency increase. It runs every 15(!) minutes after 8pm, so the night bus is actually more frequent on weekends. After about 22:30 on Fridays and Saturdays, the 4bph provided aren't enough, particularly heading south from Shoreditch. I never realised the late evening 35 was every 15 minutes , yet the 156 by then is every 12 minutes and carries mostly fresh air.
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Post by Nathan on Nov 25, 2015 12:33:27 GMT
One Word For The Weekend N35 'AWFUL!!' I've Driven It Many Times, And Personally, If The '35' Was Extended To OldStreetStation, This 24 Hour Route Wouldn't Be 'Too Bad' Would there really be any point? Shoreditch is only a few mins walk away.
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Post by 6HP502C on Nov 26, 2015 21:09:03 GMT
One Word For The Weekend N35 'AWFUL!!' I've Driven It Many Times, And Personally, If The '35' Was Extended To OldStreetStation, This 24 Hour Route Wouldn't Be 'Too Bad' Would there really be any point? Shoreditch is only a few mins walk away. Old Street Station is a 900+ metre walk from the nearest bus stops towards Elephant & Castle (Shoreditch High Street Station or Liverpool Street). There isn't even a same stop interchange available between the N55 and the 35 towards Clapham Junction. Extra walks and/or additional interchange penalties aren't particularly attractive during the day, let alone at night. People who never use the route or night buses in general may well be inclined to say "tough". Unfortunately, I suspect the consultation won't receive many responses. Virtually nobody puts in official written complaints about crowding on night buses - people just accept the status quo. The route has been bursting at the seams for a few years, but I'll bet money that not a single person has put an official written complaint in through the TfL website - nobody had when I worked on the frequency increase scheme 18 or so months ago! So although those affected don't seem to have a voice, it should be known the service is used and appreciated between Old Street and Shoreditch! Things have genuinely been looking up for the increasingly busy night bus network, with the fantastic schemes that have been going in over the last few years. Even certain 24 houring related cuts (N52, N76 for example) haven't been so controversial, because there were reasonable alternative routes available (and the N76 was one of, if not the most horrendously unreliable night route in recent years!) The frequency increase south of Shoreditch is most welcome indeed. But I'd personally appeal to TfL to retain the service as far west as Old Street Station, because it is well used and there are no alternative routes in the area which cater for people wishing to get into South London. Or at least wait for the City branch of the Northern Line to go Night Tube (and it isn't even proposed yet!)
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Post by sid on Nov 26, 2015 21:51:41 GMT
Would there really be any point? Shoreditch is only a few mins walk away. Old Street Station is a 900+ metre walk from the nearest bus stops towards Elephant & Castle (Shoreditch High Street Station or Liverpool Street). There isn't even a same stop interchange available between the N55 and the 35 towards Clapham Junction. Extra walks and/or additional interchange penalties aren't particularly attractive during the day, let alone at night. People who never use the route or night buses in general may well be inclined to say "tough". Unfortunately, I suspect the consultation won't receive many responses. Virtually nobody puts in official written complaints about crowding on night buses - people just accept the status quo. The route has been bursting at the seams for a few years, but I'll bet money that not a single person has put an official written complaint in through the TfL website - nobody had when I worked on the frequency increase scheme 18 or so months ago! So although those affected don't seem to have a voice, it should be known the service is used and appreciated between Old Street and Shoreditch! Things have genuinely been looking up for the increasingly busy night bus network, with the fantastic schemes that have been going in over the last few years. Even certain 24 houring related cuts (N52, N76 for example) haven't been so controversial, because there were reasonable alternative routes available (and the N76 was one of, if not the most horrendously unreliable night route in recent years!) The frequency increase south of Shoreditch is most welcome indeed. But I'd personally appeal to TfL to retain the service as far west as Old Street Station, because it is well used and there are no alternative routes in the area which cater for people wishing to get into South London. I very much agree, nobody complains because they think rightly or wrongly that nobody is interested. I suspect this will just go ahead regardless all for the sake of a 24 hour 35 rather than an N35!! From my random observations the daytime service seems ok as it is?
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