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Post by danorak on Feb 24, 2017 15:42:33 GMT
The reason cited for cutting the 188 to Elephant is to shorten cycle times and route miles so it will run more reliably. I'd say running to Battersea Park Station via Vauxhall doesn't meet that objective. I'd prefer the 188 to remain in its current form as far as Greenwich with the 'C' taking over the North Greenwich leg. The plans as they stand expect the C10 to take up a lot of the weight in Rotherhithe for journeys to the west - I think it would struggle badly.
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Post by sid on Feb 24, 2017 16:07:27 GMT
The reason cited for cutting the 188 to Elephant is to shorten cycle times and route miles so it will run more reliably. I'd say running to Battersea Park Station via Vauxhall doesn't meet that objective. I'd prefer the 188 to remain in its current form as far as Greenwich with the 'C' taking over the North Greenwich leg. The plans as they stand expect the C10 to take up a lot of the weight in Rotherhithe for journeys to the west - I think it would struggle badly. Is this "shorter cycle times" just an excuse for cutbacks? I think the 188 would provide a useful new link to Vauxhall and Battersea, the current route is too long winded between Tower Bridge and Waterloo anyway. I wouldn't disagree about the 'C route' taking over the North Greenwich section. The C10 really needs double deckers. |
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Post by vjaska on Feb 24, 2017 16:23:57 GMT
The reason cited for cutting the 188 to Elephant is to shorten cycle times and route miles so it will run more reliably. I'd say running to Battersea Park Station via Vauxhall doesn't meet that objective. I'd prefer the 188 to remain in its current form as far as Greenwich with the 'C' taking over the North Greenwich leg. The plans as they stand expect the C10 to take up a lot of the weight in Rotherhithe for journeys to the west - I think it would struggle badly. Kennington Lane, Vauxhall & Nine Elms Lane are far easier to navigate than running into Central London so there would still be a time saving except obviously, not as much as curtailing to Elephant. Agree with the C10 comment - have TfL forgotten that this route has twice received longer buses and multiple frequency increases over a 10 year period and still only barely coping. |
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Post by lwldriver on Feb 24, 2017 16:42:12 GMT
The reason cited for cutting the 188 to Elephant is to shorten cycle times and route miles so it will run more reliably. I'd say running to Battersea Park Station via Vauxhall doesn't meet that objective. I'd prefer the 188 to remain in its current form as far as Greenwich with the 'C' taking over the North Greenwich leg. The plans as they stand expect the C10 to take up a lot of the weight in Rotherhithe for journeys to the west - I think it would struggle badly. Is this "shorter cycle times" just an excuse for cutbacks? I think the 188 would provide a useful new link to Vauxhall and Battersea, the current route is too long winded between Tower Bridge and Waterloo anyway. I wouldn't disagree about the 'C route' taking over the North Greenwich section. The C10 really needs double deckers. The arched bridge in Abbey Street and the trees on Abbey Street, Long Lane and Sutherland Street prevent this. |
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Post by sid on Feb 24, 2017 16:44:55 GMT
Is this "shorter cycle times" just an excuse for cutbacks? I think the 188 would provide a useful new link to Vauxhall and Battersea, the current route is too long winded between Tower Bridge and Waterloo anyway. I wouldn't disagree about the 'C route' taking over the North Greenwich section. The C10 really needs double deckers. The arched bridge in Abbey Street and the trees on Abbey Street, Long Lane and Sutherland Street prevent this. We've had this discussion before, double deckers can pass under the Abbey Street bridge and often do running oos to and from MW, trees are another matter. |
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Post by lwldriver on Feb 24, 2017 16:45:48 GMT
Maybe curtail the 196 at Vauxhall? I'd certainly agree with the 188 to Battersea Park Stn and the 436 to Clapham Junction improving east/west links. I can't see much of a case for saving the 381 though to be honest, a change of bus or the JLE for Guys and Tommys. The problem with curtailing at Vauxhall is lack of space both now & even more so with the upcoming works which will reduce stand space further. It's a shame there isn't room on the Albert Embankment what with all the coaches parking there. In regards to the 381, the problem with that is anyone who is elderly, disabled or unable to walk much probably won't want to change bus or will unlikely use the Tube - personally, hospital provision is very important and whilst certainly not every route can serve one, I'd like to see current ones remain doing so. If it didn't serve two major hospitals, I'd be more sympathetic though effectively cutting the route in half still seems overkill especially given there is some demand along the section being removed. The 381 should remain as it is, for the hospital provision (my Nan for one uses it for Guys and Tommies) and the fact that many passengers use it from Tower Bridge and Bermondsey Station to get to the Rotherhithe Peninsula. I have always wondered about if it can be extended further, maybe to Brockley Rise. |
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Post by sid on Feb 24, 2017 16:52:20 GMT
The problem with curtailing at Vauxhall is lack of space both now & even more so with the upcoming works which will reduce stand space further. It's a shame there isn't room on the Albert Embankment what with all the coaches parking there. In regards to the 381, the problem with that is anyone who is elderly, disabled or unable to walk much probably won't want to change bus or will unlikely use the Tube - personally, hospital provision is very important and whilst certainly not every route can serve one, I'd like to see current ones remain doing so. If it didn't serve two major hospitals, I'd be more sympathetic though effectively cutting the route in half still seems overkill especially given there is some demand along the section being removed. The 381 should remain as it is, for the hospital provision (my Nan for one uses it for Guys and Tommies) and the fact that many passengers use it from Tower Bridge and Bermondsey Station to get to the Rotherhithe Peninsula. I have always wondered about if it can be extended further, maybe to Brockley Rise. I'm not sure if that is enough to justify its retention, in my experience loadings are generally light west of Rotherhithe and the C10 does offer an alternative to Tommys. |
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Post by vjaska on Feb 24, 2017 18:08:27 GMT
The 381 should remain as it is, for the hospital provision (my Nan for one uses it for Guys and Tommies) and the fact that many passengers use it from Tower Bridge and Bermondsey Station to get to the Rotherhithe Peninsula. I have always wondered about if it can be extended further, maybe to Brockley Rise. I'm not sure if that is enough to justify its retention, in my experience loadings are generally light west of Rotherhithe and the C10 does offer an alternative to Tommys. The 381 can get fairly busy west of Rotherhithe - not rammed solid but certainly not light. I used to do the route end to end after college to ride the 54 reg Volvos back when they were in a good condition. |
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Post by snoggle on Dec 16, 2018 0:09:40 GMT
As a result of a post in another thread I found two papers relating to possible changes in Enfield Borough.
TfL reviewed access to Chase Farm Hospital and North Middlesex Hospital and also how to serve employment and redevelopment areas. Chase Farm Hospital is to have 500 homes built on part of the site so there's a double reason for access there. However TfL were only able to justify one proposal related to hospitals - to extend the W10 to North Middlesex Hospital via Firs Lane and some other unserved roads. Buses would run every 30 mins Monday to Saturday. This option is apparently still under consideration by TfL but there are concerns about resident opposition about buses on new roads.
For the Meridian Water link there were several proposals many of which are likely to proceed subject to stand space being provided.
- extend the 341 from Angel Road Superstores through Meridian Water to stand at a new stand near Cooks Ferry Roundabout. This is a pretty cheap option but there are concerns about the length of the route and reliability.
- the 192 would remain unchanged
- a brand new daily route, running x10 M-S peaks and daytimes (other freqs unspecified), from Tottenham Hale to Meridian Water (Cooks Ferry). This is because the 192 is full in the peaks by the time it reaches Tescos so more capacity is needed.
- the 444 would be diverted at Montagu Road to run round to Tescos then through Meridian Water to Cooks Ferry and back to existing route. Also a pretty cheap option to implement.
- The 34 would not be diverted as too many links would be broken and journey times extended.
- The W6 would be extended to Picketts Lock in place of the W8.
- The W8 would be extended to Meridian Water via Meridian Way (so turns right to go south rather than left to go to Picketts Lock). A second phase could see the W8 extened to Walthamstow although this would be an expensive option.
There is also mention of creating a busway on the old track bed of the line that used to link the WA main line to Edmonton Green. The 192 might be diverted over that.
These plans were from 2015 so may well have been superseded or reworked but interesting nonetheless.
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Post by ADH45258 on Dec 16, 2018 8:22:05 GMT
As a result of a post in another thread I found two papers relating to possible changes in Enfield Borough. TfL reviewed access to Chase Farm Hospital and North Middlesex Hospital and also how to serve employment and redevelopment areas. Chase Farm Hospital is to have 500 homes built on part of the site so there's a double reason for access there. However TfL were only able to justify one proposal related to hospitals - to extend the W10 to North Middlesex Hospital via Firs Lane and some other unserved roads. Buses would run every 30 mins Monday to Saturday. This option is apparently still under consideration by TfL but there are concerns about resident opposition about buses on new roads. For the Meridian Water link there were several proposals many of which are likely to proceed subject to stand space being provided. - extend the 341 from Angel Road Superstores through Meridian Water to stand at a new stand near Cooks Ferry Roundabout. This is a pretty cheap option but there are concerns about the length of the route and reliability. - the 192 would remain unchanged - a brand new daily route, running x10 M-S peaks and daytimes (other freqs unspecified), from Tottenham Hale to Meridian Water (Cooks Ferry). This is because the 192 is full in the peaks by the time it reaches Tescos so more capacity is needed. - the 444 would be diverted at Montagu Road to run round to Tescos then through Meridian Water to Cooks Ferry and back to existing route. Also a pretty cheap option to implement. - The 34 would not be diverted as too many links would be broken and journey times extended. - The W6 would be extended to Picketts Lock in place of the W8. - The W8 would be extended to Meridian Water via Meridian Way (so turns right to go south rather than left to go to Picketts Lock). A second phase could see the W8 extened to Walthamstow although this would be an expensive option. There is also mention of creating a busway on the old track bed of the line that used to link the WA main line to Edmonton Green. The 192 might be diverted over that. These plans were from 2015 so may well have been superseded or reworked but interesting nonetheless. With the 341 reliability issue, the 341 could instead be cut back slightly to Northumberland Park Station, with the 476 then extended to Meridian Water via Angel Road. |
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Post by Red Dragon on Dec 16, 2018 9:58:48 GMT
As a result of a post in another thread I found two papers relating to possible changes in Enfield Borough. <snip> - The W6 would be extended to Picketts Lock in place of the W8. <snip> These plans were from 2015 so may well have been superseded or reworked but interesting nonetheless. The W6 plan would only work with at least another 3 vehicles added to the PVR realistically. Reliability is poor, to the extent where there are many runs which passengers actually think are scheduled to run short as they always run late and get turned short at Hedge Lane. It's not unknown for 6/9 buses to be stuck at Edmonton Green, and ridiculous situations such as 20 min gap, 1 bus turned at the Cambridge Roundabout, three buses turned at Hedge Lane then a 40 minute gap (i.e. a wait of 1h20m for a through bus to Southgate) occur regularly. Loadings are also insanely variable. I get the same bus towards Edmonton Green every morning and loading can vary from less than five people to full and standing, even if it's running to time and the previous bus did as well. The parallel 121 always arrives just before it so it is all dedicated passengers. This means that the buses which just get rammed out of the blue randomly lose time. Running times are so variable that without an increased frequency, additional stand time would appear to be the only solution (especially in the PM peaks). |
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Post by snoggle on Dec 16, 2018 12:07:06 GMT
With the 341 reliability issue, the 341 could instead be cut back slightly to Northumberland Park Station, with the 476 then extended to Meridian Water via Angel Road. In theory yes but TfL like the option of extending the 341 because it gives useful cross Tottenham links that the 476 would not provide. There are also established travel patterns on the 341. Let's face it - there are masses of buses on the main N-S corridor so interchange is easy and wait times minimal if you want to travel south of Tottenham Garage. TfL are keen to provide a mix of service access from a range of directions to / from Meridian Water for both the new residents but also people elsewhere who will travel in to the area to work. There is still a decent amount of industry in the area. |
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Post by ADH45258 on Dec 16, 2018 12:51:51 GMT
With the 341 reliability issue, the 341 could instead be cut back slightly to Northumberland Park Station, with the 476 then extended to Meridian Water via Angel Road. In theory yes but TfL like the option of extending the 341 because it gives useful cross Tottenham links that the 476 would not provide. There are also established travel patterns on the 341. Let's face it - there are masses of buses on the main N-S corridor so interchange is easy and wait times minimal if you want to travel south of Tottenham Garage. TfL are keen to provide a mix of service access from a range of directions to / from Meridian Water for both the new residents but also people elsewhere who will travel in to the area to work. There is still a decent amount of industry in the area. Though the 476 would provide some similar links to Tottenham, Newington Green and Angel. |
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Post by snoggle on Dec 16, 2018 13:48:15 GMT
In theory yes but TfL like the option of extending the 341 because it gives useful cross Tottenham links that the 476 would not provide. There are also established travel patterns on the 341. Let's face it - there are masses of buses on the main N-S corridor so interchange is easy and wait times minimal if you want to travel south of Tottenham Garage. TfL are keen to provide a mix of service access from a range of directions to / from Meridian Water for both the new residents but also people elsewhere who will travel in to the area to work. There is still a decent amount of industry in the area. Though the 476 would provide some similar links to Tottenham, Newington Green and Angel. So what? I am quoting what TfL have said in their report where the value was on ensuring east to west links which the 341 provides through West Green, St Anns and Green Lanes. They did not consider the 476 as an option so there's little point in speculating about something that was not considered. |
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Post by redexpress on Dec 16, 2018 20:04:49 GMT
- extend the 341 from Angel Road Superstores through Meridian Water to stand at a new stand near Cooks Ferry Roundabout. This is a pretty cheap option but there are concerns about the length of the route and reliability. These plans were from 2015 so may well have been superseded or reworked but interesting nonetheless. With the 341 reliability issue, the 341 could instead be cut back slightly to Northumberland Park Station, with the 476 then extended to Meridian Water via Angel Road. Remember the 341 is due to take over the 4's shorter terminal working at Waterloo, which should save a few minutes. The planned rerouting via Farringdon may also save a small amount of time although that might depend on how long it takes to turn right at Ludgate Circus. These changes - which weren't in the pipeline in 2015 - may well save enough time to allow the short extension to Meridian Water. |
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