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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Jun 7, 2018 23:34:14 GMT
TfL now seem to have updated the bus performance data (not patronage ) Might just be me not being able to find it, but I can't find the area on the TfL website where the patronage numbers are published. Previously a quick Google search of "TfL bus usage" would show it as the first result but that doesn't seem to be the case anymore.
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Post by snoggle on Jun 7, 2018 23:40:38 GMT
TfL now seem to have updated the bus performance data (not patronage ) Might just be me not being able to find it, but I can't find the area on the TfL website where the patronage numbers are published. Previously a quick Google search of "TfL bus usage" would show it as the first result but that doesn't seem to be the case anymore. Still on this page ---> tfl.gov.uk/corporate/publications-and-reports/busesIt is late this year as is the update to the LUL station usage numbers. It's clear TfL have processed all the data for the annual report etc so they should just publish it. If it doesn't appear soon I'll be annoying the General Counsel department about it.
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Jun 8, 2018 11:56:19 GMT
Might just be me not being able to find it, but I can't find the area on the TfL website where the patronage numbers are published. Previously a quick Google search of "TfL bus usage" would show it as the first result but that doesn't seem to be the case anymore. Still on this page ---> tfl.gov.uk/corporate/publications-and-reports/busesIt is late this year as is the update to the LUL station usage numbers. It's clear TfL have processed all the data for the annual report etc so they should just publish it. If it doesn't appear soon I'll be annoying the General Counsel department about it. Thanks for that Hopefully the numbers are out soon, I'm quite looking forward to see how some of my local routes are doing.
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Post by snowman on Jun 26, 2018 13:53:32 GMT
Couldn't see it posted, so here is bus info for period 2 from London datastore
Bus journeys 180.1m (2017 182.3m 2016 181.9m 2015 180.5m 2014 192.8m 2013 188.8m 2012 189.9m) Underground journeys 105.6m (2017 106.1m 2016 105.7m )
So buses continue to be lower than earlier years
How this is affecting revenue will become clearer tomorrow when the papers for the TfL finance committee are uploaded
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Post by snoggle on Jul 30, 2018 20:17:41 GMT
Period 3's patronage numbers have been updated in the London Datastore
Buses 174.3m Tube 105.6m DLR 9.2m Tram 2.3m Overground 14.3m TfL Rail 4.1m
Buses are down 1.5m on same period last year, Tube is up 4m on last year. DLR, Trams and Overground are near enough static. TfL Rail is up 0.7m - probably accounted for my reduced engineering works out east and the adoption of the service out of Paddington. This is the first full period with those numbers included.
So far this year bus patronage is 10m down on the same periods last year. That's looking fairly serious to me.
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Post by redbus on Jul 31, 2018 23:00:51 GMT
Period 3's patronage numbers have been updated in the London Datastore Buses 174.3m Tube 105.6m DLR 9.2m Tram 2.3m Overground 14.3m TfL Rail 4.1m Buses are down 1.5m on same period last year, Tube is up 4m on last year. DLR, Trams and Overground are near enough static. TfL Rail is up 0.7m - probably accounted for my reduced engineering works out east and the adoption of the service out of Paddington. This is the first full period with those numbers included. So far this year bus patronage is 10m down on the same periods last year. That's looking fairly serious to me. I'd like to know how that decrease is spread across areas and routes. Are some places suffering more than others, and if that is the case, then why.
I also find it interesting that tube journeys are up noticeably, whilst other forms of transport are not suffering like the buses. If the cause of the drop in bus journeys were the economy, or people travelling out less, homeworking or internet deliveries then surely the other forms of transport would also be impacted. This suggest to me that buses currently are just not an attractive enough and this needs to be urgently addressed.
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Post by snoggle on Aug 1, 2018 0:12:25 GMT
I'd like to know how that decrease is spread across areas and routes. Are some places suffering more than others, and if that is the case, then why.
I also find it interesting that tube journeys are up noticeably, whilst other forms of transport are not suffering like the buses. If the cause of the drop in bus journeys were the economy, or people travelling out less, homeworking or internet deliveries then surely the other forms of transport would also be impacted. This suggest to me that buses currently are just not an attractive enough and this needs to be urgently addressed. We may get a tiny insight when TfL release the 2017/18 bus patronage numbers - hopefully fairly soon. However it's so hard to look at aggregate annual numbers at route level and make even a rough guess as to what sits behind changes. We will need to see if the branding trials have had any impact on usage. I suspect some of what is going on is a reassessment of modal attractiveness by passengers. For some journeys the tube will win out and it will do better than buses when tourist / visitor numbers rise which may sit behind the most recent P3 numbers. The impact of the GTR fiasco may also have boosted tube numbers with people driving from Herts to Stanmore / Cockfosters / Barnet to take the tube. We will need the next 2-3 periods to see what's happening. The other rail borne modes are all static which TfL will probably cite as a success given other TOCs are faring less well and are losing patronage. The generally flat patronage, though, can't be encouraging for TfL as they need every penny. Cycle hire usage is at all time record levels - again the sunny weather helps with this. Also some boroughs are experimenting with dockless hire schemes - that may be affecting modal choice for some people. My bus usage is at an all time low - largely because of the weather. I hate boiling temperatures / burning sun so I've not been anywhere other than essential shopping trips for weeks and I've even scaled some of those back. Also as the bus service gets worse there's little point in using it - for example I've largely stopped using the W11 since they changed the frequency. I only catch it if I know one is due in 1-2 mins at the supermarket. I'm not waiting for 12-15 mins when I can walk to the main road and, in theory [1], wait a far shorter time. My view tends to be that if TfL can't be bothered to offer a decent service or are deliberately making it worse then I can't much be bothered to use it. What's the phrase? - oh yes "you reap what you sow". [1] I say theory because the operation of routes up Chingford Rd is appalling. So much bunching and then large gaps, esp if the 97 is having a (all too regular) bad day. I recently waited 12 mins off peak daytime at the Stadium stop which is ludicrous when there are supposedly 14.5 bph. You should never really have to wait more than 4-4.5 mins (allowing for some variability in the service).
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Post by met120 on Aug 1, 2018 17:36:43 GMT
I'd like to know how that decrease is spread across areas and routes. Are some places suffering more than others, and if that is the case, then why.
I also find it interesting that tube journeys are up noticeably, whilst other forms of transport are not suffering like the buses. If the cause of the drop in bus journeys were the economy, or people travelling out less, homeworking or internet deliveries then surely the other forms of transport would also be impacted. This suggest to me that buses currently are just not an attractive enough and this needs to be urgently addressed. We may get a tiny insight when TfL release the 2017/18 bus patronage numbers - hopefully fairly soon. However it's so hard to look at aggregate annual numbers at route level and make even a rough guess as to what sits behind changes. We will need to see if the branding trials have had any impact on usage. I suspect some of what is going on is a reassessment of modal attractiveness by passengers. For some journeys the tube will win out and it will do better than buses when tourist / visitor numbers rise which may sit behind the most recent P3 numbers. The impact of the GTR fiasco may also have boosted tube numbers with people driving from Herts to Stanmore / Cockfosters / Barnet to take the tube. We will need the next 2-3 periods to see what's happening. The other rail borne modes are all static which TfL will probably cite as a success given other TOCs are faring less well and are losing patronage. The generally flat patronage, though, can't be encouraging for TfL as they need every penny. Cycle hire usage is at all time record levels - again the sunny weather helps with this. Also some boroughs are experimenting with dockless hire schemes - that may be affecting modal choice for some people. My bus usage is at an all time low - largely because of the weather. I hate boiling temperatures / burning sun so I've not been anywhere other than essential shopping trips for weeks and I've even scaled some of those back. Also as the bus service gets worse there's little point in using it - for example I've largely stopped using the W11 since they changed the frequency. I only catch it if I know one is due in 1-2 mins at the supermarket. I'm not waiting for 12-15 mins when I can walk to the main road and, in theory [1], wait a far shorter time. My view tends to be that if TfL can't be bothered to offer a decent service or are deliberately making it worse then I can't much be bothered to use it. What's the phrase? - oh yes "you reap what you sow". [1] I say theory because the operation of routes up Chingford Rd is appalling. So much bunching and then large gaps, esp if the 97 is having a (all too regular) bad day. I recently waited 12 mins off peak daytime at the Stadium stop which is ludicrous when there are supposedly 14.5 bph. You should never really have to wait more than 4-4.5 mins (allowing for some variability in the service). I think they are deliberately withholding the info on individual routes bus patronage especially because they have cut some much bus frequencies under the guise of matching demand. I believe some cuts are reasonably justified but I feel like some others were pre-planned especially after major roadworks. There is nothing attractive about a route that comes every 12-15 mins especially if it’s gonna be consistently regulated during the journey.
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Post by snoggle on Aug 1, 2018 17:47:04 GMT
I think they are deliberately withholding the info on individual routes bus patronage especially because they have cut some much bus frequencies under the guise of matching demand. I have been in touch with TfL. They have explained why there is a delay relative to previous years. On the basis that they are not telling me enormous fibs then you are incorrect in your view. Previous posts from me elsewhere on the forum explain why there has been a delay. It is also worth saying that TfL's own publication schedule doesn't actually require publication until December each year. It's just that for the last few years they've always emerged in late May / early June. TfL say last year's numbers should, all being well, emerge before the end of August. I expect to get an E mail from them when they are ready to publish.
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Post by vjaska on Aug 2, 2018 12:45:06 GMT
We may get a tiny insight when TfL release the 2017/18 bus patronage numbers - hopefully fairly soon. However it's so hard to look at aggregate annual numbers at route level and make even a rough guess as to what sits behind changes. We will need to see if the branding trials have had any impact on usage. I suspect some of what is going on is a reassessment of modal attractiveness by passengers. For some journeys the tube will win out and it will do better than buses when tourist / visitor numbers rise which may sit behind the most recent P3 numbers. The impact of the GTR fiasco may also have boosted tube numbers with people driving from Herts to Stanmore / Cockfosters / Barnet to take the tube. We will need the next 2-3 periods to see what's happening. The other rail borne modes are all static which TfL will probably cite as a success given other TOCs are faring less well and are losing patronage. The generally flat patronage, though, can't be encouraging for TfL as they need every penny. Cycle hire usage is at all time record levels - again the sunny weather helps with this. Also some boroughs are experimenting with dockless hire schemes - that may be affecting modal choice for some people. My bus usage is at an all time low - largely because of the weather. I hate boiling temperatures / burning sun so I've not been anywhere other than essential shopping trips for weeks and I've even scaled some of those back. Also as the bus service gets worse there's little point in using it - for example I've largely stopped using the W11 since they changed the frequency. I only catch it if I know one is due in 1-2 mins at the supermarket. I'm not waiting for 12-15 mins when I can walk to the main road and, in theory [1], wait a far shorter time. My view tends to be that if TfL can't be bothered to offer a decent service or are deliberately making it worse then I can't much be bothered to use it. What's the phrase? - oh yes "you reap what you sow". [1] I say theory because the operation of routes up Chingford Rd is appalling. So much bunching and then large gaps, esp if the 97 is having a (all too regular) bad day. I recently waited 12 mins off peak daytime at the Stadium stop which is ludicrous when there are supposedly 14.5 bph. You should never really have to wait more than 4-4.5 mins (allowing for some variability in the service). I think they are deliberately withholding the info on individual routes bus patronage especially because they have cut some much bus frequencies under the guise of matching demand. I believe some cuts are reasonably justified but I feel like some others were pre-planned especially after major roadworks. There is nothing attractive about a route that comes every 12-15 mins especially if it’s gonna be consistently regulated during the journey. Out of interest, which cuts are, according to yourself, reasonably justified because I'm struggling to see extremely few justified cuts, if any at all.
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Post by sid on Aug 2, 2018 13:07:15 GMT
I think they are deliberately withholding the info on individual routes bus patronage especially because they have cut some much bus frequencies under the guise of matching demand. I believe some cuts are reasonably justified but I feel like some others were pre-planned especially after major roadworks. There is nothing attractive about a route that comes every 12-15 mins especially if it’s gonna be consistently regulated during the journey. Out of interest, which cuts are, according to yourself, reasonably justified because I'm struggling to see extremely few justified cuts, if any at all. Pretty much all of them are justified I'd say including the 264 and 484 which I thought were cuts too far. The only one that hasn't been justified as far as I'm aware is the C11 and possibly the 106? I know this is a bus forum but reality is that fewer passengers inevitably means fewer buses.
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Post by busaholic on Aug 2, 2018 13:22:21 GMT
Out of interest, which cuts are, according to yourself, reasonably justified because I'm struggling to see extremely few justified cuts, if any at all. Pretty much all of them are justified I'd say including the 264 and 484 which I thought were cuts too far. The only one that hasn't been justified as far as I'm aware is the C11 and possibly the 106? I know this is a bus forum but reality is that fewer passengers inevitably means fewer buses. ...which means fewer passengers, which means fewer buses.... repeat ad infinitum.
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Post by sid on Aug 2, 2018 13:31:18 GMT
Pretty much all of them are justified I'd say including the 264 and 484 which I thought were cuts too far. The only one that hasn't been justified as far as I'm aware is the C11 and possibly the 106? I know this is a bus forum but reality is that fewer passengers inevitably means fewer buses. ...which means fewer passengers, which means fewer buses.... repeat ad infinitum. It doesn't necessarily work like that. Unless buses are ram packed full and leaving intending passengers behind, as in the C11, what reasoned argument is there? I mean if you were running a private hire business and you suffered a drop in trade you would then put fewer cars out on the road wouldn't you? Honestly it really isn't rocket science.
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Post by gloriouswater on Aug 2, 2018 14:47:01 GMT
...which means fewer passengers, which means fewer buses.... repeat ad infinitum. It doesn't necessarily work like that. Unless buses are ram packed full and leaving intending passengers behind, as in the C11, what reasoned argument is there? I mean if you were running a private hire business and you suffered a drop in trade you would then put fewer cars out on the road wouldn't you? Honestly it really isn't rocket science. The reality is they are ram packed full and leaving passengers behind... until a short time after the cut when people have given up using them. Take my local 225 as an example, which I commuted on back when it had a 15 minute frequency and buses would be ram packed until well after 10pm. Nowadays you have buses coming every 20 minutes, if they feel like running that day, and when they turn up they crawl at barely above walking pace. It's become relatively rare to see a busy 225 outside school hours, and if people saw the route nowadays they wouldn't see why it needed 4 buses an hour in the first place.
I'm glad not to be using the 225 as frequently. None of my direct links to Lewisham are any good - the 47 is stuck in traffic permanently while the 199 goes absolutely everywhere. I usually opt to take a bus a few minutes up the road to New Cross and walk the rest of the way - the sad thing is that's faster. I've not been overtaken by a 225 the last six times I've done that. It's certainly not rocket science that people are abandoning buses in their droves when they're becoming slower, less frequent, and much less reliable.
Anyway my points have been gone over many times before in far better detail by other people on this forum. Just had to add my £0.02 here.
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Post by sid on Aug 2, 2018 14:56:58 GMT
It doesn't necessarily work like that. Unless buses are ram packed full and leaving intending passengers behind, as in the C11, what reasoned argument is there? I mean if you were running a private hire business and you suffered a drop in trade you would then put fewer cars out on the road wouldn't you? Honestly it really isn't rocket science. The reality is they are ram packed full and leaving passengers behind... until a short time after the cut when people have given up using them. Take my local 225 as an example, which I commuted on back when it had a 15 minute frequency and buses would be ram packed until well after 10pm. Nowadays you have buses coming every 20 minutes, if they feel like running that day, and when they turn up they crawl at barely above walking pace. It's become relatively rare to see a busy 225 outside school hours, and if people saw the route nowadays they wouldn't see why it needed 4 buses an hour in the first place.
I'm glad not to be using the 225 as frequently. None of my direct links to Lewisham are any good - the 47 is stuck in traffic permanently while the 199 goes absolutely everywhere. I usually opt to take a bus a few minutes up the road to New Cross and walk the rest of the way - the sad thing is that's faster. I've not been overtaken by a 225 the last six times I've done that. It's certainly not rocket science that people are abandoning buses in their droves when they're becoming slower, less frequent, and much less reliable.
Anyway my points have been gone over many times before in far better detail by other people on this forum. Just had to add my £0.02 here.
Well if the 225 is ram packed full due to the frequency reduction then fair enough, if the service is just badly run that's another issue.
As for the 47 I had a ride on that one afternoon recently from Lewisham to Bermondsey and I was somewhat surprised just how quiet it was, now I don't expect it to be ram packed full but I would expect more than about half a dozen passengers on the top deck, and it wasn't long ago people on here, myself included, were saying it needed a frequency increase.
But to get back to my original point, if passenger numbers are declining then what else do people expect?
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