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Post by snoggle on Aug 2, 2018 16:33:04 GMT
But to get back to my original point, if passenger numbers are declining then what else do people expect?
How about some demonstrable effort from TfL to make buses run faster, to take measures to reduce congestion, to fix the ridiculous overpadded timetables, to have nicer vehicles, to properly market the bus service to existing and new Londoners as well as visitors? Actually *do* something? That would be a start. Just cutting services is the easy and wrong answer to changing circumstances. If Apple find a competitor has made a really good smartphone they don't stop making I-Phones. They make a better product and market it so that people will stay or switch to them rather than competitors. TfL has no such notion despite the fact there is plenty of competition that is affecting bus services. As you are fond of reminding us "it's hardly rocket science is it?"
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Post by sid on Aug 2, 2018 16:53:20 GMT
But to get back to my original point, if passenger numbers are declining then what else do people expect?
How about some demonstrable effort from TfL to make buses run faster, to take measures to reduce congestion, to fix the ridiculous overpadded timetables, to have nicer vehicles, to properly market the bus service to existing and new Londoners as well as visitors? Actually *do* something? That would be a start. Just cutting services is the easy and wrong answer to changing circumstances. If Apple find a competitor has made a really good smartphone they don't stop making I-Phones. They make a better product and market it so that people will stay or switch to them rather than competitors. TfL has no such notion despite the fact there is plenty of competition that is affecting bus services. As you are fond of reminding us "it's hardly rocket science is it?" Well yes TfL could be doing something to encourage bus travel but I seem to recall the route branding exercise being met with much scepticism on here, it's not going to change things overnight but it's a step in the right direction just as WiFi and USB charging points would be. The main thing is speeding up journey times and eliminating buses being held at stops to regulate the service but until any of this happens there is little point in complaining about cuts in service if they are in keeping with a fall in demand. Oh and if you really want to encourage more fare paying passengers onto buses then I'm afraid free travel for kids and for OAP's before 09.30 has to go.
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Post by gloriouswater on Aug 2, 2018 17:12:10 GMT
The reality is they are ram packed full and leaving passengers behind... until a short time after the cut when people have given up using them. Take my local 225 as an example, which I commuted on back when it had a 15 minute frequency and buses would be ram packed until well after 10pm. Nowadays you have buses coming every 20 minutes, if they feel like running that day, and when they turn up they crawl at barely above walking pace. It's become relatively rare to see a busy 225 outside school hours, and if people saw the route nowadays they wouldn't see why it needed 4 buses an hour in the first place.
I'm glad not to be using the 225 as frequently. None of my direct links to Lewisham are any good - the 47 is stuck in traffic permanently while the 199 goes absolutely everywhere. I usually opt to take a bus a few minutes up the road to New Cross and walk the rest of the way - the sad thing is that's faster. I've not been overtaken by a 225 the last six times I've done that. It's certainly not rocket science that people are abandoning buses in their droves when they're becoming slower, less frequent, and much less reliable.
Anyway my points have been gone over many times before in far better detail by other people on this forum. Just had to add my £0.02 here.
Well if the 225 is ram packed full due to the frequency reduction then fair enough, if the service is just badly run that's another issue.
As for the 47 I had a ride on that one afternoon recently from Lewisham to Bermondsey and I was somewhat surprised just how quiet it was, now I don't expect it to be ram packed full but I would expect more than about half a dozen passengers on the top deck, and it wasn't long ago people on here, myself included, were saying it needed a frequency increase.
But to get back to my original point, if passenger numbers are declining then what else do people expect?
The 47 used to be even worse for crowds than the 225. Buses full at 10pm on a Sunday night was a regular thing. Nowadays it's relatively dead... doesn't help that it's also every 20 minutes on a Sunday now. And this is a major trunk route from the City to several large suburban centres... As the point was in my original post... it's not the decline on these particular routes that has caused the frequency cut, but more the other way round.
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Post by sid on Aug 2, 2018 17:33:53 GMT
Well if the 225 is ram packed full due to the frequency reduction then fair enough, if the service is just badly run that's another issue.
As for the 47 I had a ride on that one afternoon recently from Lewisham to Bermondsey and I was somewhat surprised just how quiet it was, now I don't expect it to be ram packed full but I would expect more than about half a dozen passengers on the top deck, and it wasn't long ago people on here, myself included, were saying it needed a frequency increase.
But to get back to my original point, if passenger numbers are declining then what else do people expect?
The 47 used to be even worse for crowds than the 225. Buses full at 10pm on a Sunday night was a regular thing. Nowadays it's relatively dead... doesn't help that it's also every 20 minutes on a Sunday now. And this is a major trunk route from the City to several large suburban centres... As the point was in my original post... it's not the decline on these particular routes that has caused the frequency cut, but more the other way round.
I would certainly think the 47 deserves more than a x20 minute service Sunday daytimes, in fact that is a day when quite a few services need an increase, but unless we get some sort of reshaping exercise TfL will probably just continue as they are now with uncoordinated reductions seemingly done on a random basis. I would imagine the improved London Overground service will have taken a bit of custom from the 47.
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Post by busaholic on Aug 2, 2018 21:55:10 GMT
The 47 used to be even worse for crowds than the 225. Buses full at 10pm on a Sunday night was a regular thing. Nowadays it's relatively dead... doesn't help that it's also every 20 minutes on a Sunday now. And this is a major trunk route from the City to several large suburban centres... As the point was in my original post... it's not the decline on these particular routes that has caused the frequency cut, but more the other way round.
I would certainly think the 47 deserves more than a x20 minute service Sunday daytimes, in fact that is a day when quite a few services need an increase, but unless we get some sort of reshaping exercise TfL will probably just continue as they are now with uncoordinated reductions seemingly done on a random basis. I would imagine the improved London Overground service will have taken a bit of custom from the 47. I'm genuinely shocked to see the headways on the 47 now, on any day of the week. I used to watch all the buses through Bromley South on a Sunday when visiting my grandfather as a kid in the 1950s/early 60s, and the frequency then was 4-5 minutes Shoreditch through to Bromley Garage. Even later, when this had probably become every 10 minutes on this section, they were certainly every 5 minutes Shoreditch to Surrey Docks, and on to Lewisham and TL for much of the day. The Overground may account for some of the abstraction from Surrey Quays, but what of the rest of the route? I can only assume that TfL. Network Rail at London Bridge, British Gas in the City, etc, have done for all this traffic. EVERY TWENTY MINUTES!! I just can't believe it - the 42, for God's sake, manages every 15 minutes.
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Post by snoggle on Aug 2, 2018 22:21:01 GMT
I can only assume that TfL. Network Rail at London Bridge, British Gas in the City, etc, have done for all this traffic. EVERY TWENTY MINUTES!! I just can't believe it - the 42, for God's sake, manages every 15 minutes. It isn't just the Overground. It's also the Jubilee Line. It had a torrid time when being resignalled so buses along Jamaica Road did very well because of people being so fed up with tube delays. However once the Jubilee Line's signalling worked then demand has fallen away in this area. I would also throw in regular delays through Bermondsey, Rotherhithe Tunnel related traffic jams, the nightmare that has been Lewisham Town Centre for *years* plus Tower Bridge Closure *and* TfL changing between Liv St and Shoreditch terminals (partly a service reliability measure) and you have the perfect recipe for a bus route to be destroyed. What is worse is that a fair number of these schemes and issues are TfL's responsibility or funded by TfL. Another classic case of conflicting and botched objectives, policies and projects cutting across the operation of a key service. The 47 lost 1.89m pass jnys over 3 years - that's a horrendous fall (more than 25%). The 381 has lost 1.4m pass jnys in 2 years, the 188 1.2m over 3 years while the C10 has bucked the trend and kept adding patronage (some of which may be transfers from other routes). I actually think TfL have gone too far in cutting the 47 but they would never concede that point now. The only small saving grace is that with the scale of housing expansion planned in Rotherhithe and Canada Water and the cancelled further upgrade on the Jubilee Line might bring back some purpose to the 47. That's if TfL don't destroy it completely when they eventually get round to rejigging bus routes in this part of SE London. tfl.gov.uk/cdn/static/cms/documents/southeast-riverside-area-review.pdf
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Post by danorak on Aug 2, 2018 23:05:14 GMT
How about some demonstrable effort from TfL to make buses run faster, to take measures to reduce congestion, to fix the ridiculous overpadded timetables, to have nicer vehicles, to properly market the bus service to existing and new Londoners as well as visitors? Actually *do* something? That would be a start. Just cutting services is the easy and wrong answer to changing circumstances. If Apple find a competitor has made a really good smartphone they don't stop making I-Phones. They make a better product and market it so that people will stay or switch to them rather than competitors. TfL has no such notion despite the fact there is plenty of competition that is affecting bus services. As you are fond of reminding us "it's hardly rocket science is it?" Well yes TfL could be doing something to encourage bus travel but I seem to recall the route branding exercise being met with much scepticism on here, it's not going to change things overnight but it's a step in the right direction just as WiFi and USB charging points would be. The main thing is speeding up journey times and eliminating buses being held at stops to regulate the service but until any of this happens there is little point in complaining about cuts in service if they are in keeping with a fall in demand. Oh and if you really want to encourage more fare paying passengers onto buses then I'm afraid free travel for kids and for OAP's before 09.30 has to go. The problem with the route branding was more that it was badly executed in a slapdash fashion, and in some cases by obscuring windows made bus travel less attractive. I'd be all in favour of a proper branding exercise supported by decent maps and publicity. But then that's something else TfL has given up on.
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Post by busaholic on Aug 2, 2018 23:39:38 GMT
I can only assume that TfL. Network Rail at London Bridge, British Gas in the City, etc, have done for all this traffic. EVERY TWENTY MINUTES!! I just can't believe it - the 42, for God's sake, manages every 15 minutes. It isn't just the Overground. It's also the Jubilee Line. It had a torrid time when being resignalled so buses along Jamaica Road did very well because of people being so fed up with tube delays. However once the Jubilee Line's signalling worked then demand has fallen away in this area. I would also throw in regular delays through Bermondsey, Rotherhithe Tunnel related traffic jams, the nightmare that has been Lewisham Town Centre for *years* plus Tower Bridge Closure *and* TfL changing between Liv St and Shoreditch terminals (partly a service reliability measure) and you have the perfect recipe for a bus route to be destroyed. What is worse is that a fair number of these schemes and issues are TfL's responsibility or funded by TfL. Another classic case of conflicting and botched objectives, policies and projects cutting across the operation of a key service. The 47 lost 1.89m pass jnys over 3 years - that's a horrendous fall (more than 25%). The 381 has lost 1.4m pass jnys in 2 years, the 188 1.2m over 3 years while the C10 has bucked the trend and kept adding patronage (some of which may be transfers from other routes). I actually think TfL have gone too far in cutting the 47 but they would never concede that point now. The only small saving grace is that with the scale of housing expansion planned in Rotherhithe and Canada Water and the cancelled further upgrade on the Jubilee Line might bring back some purpose to the 47. That's if TfL don't destroy it completely when they eventually get round to rejigging bus routes in this part of SE London. tfl.gov.uk/cdn/static/cms/documents/southeast-riverside-area-review.pdfI could cry about all this, I really could. It's thirty years almost to the day since I left Lewisham, and I don't go back, or to Eltham where I grew up. I follow what goes on, as far as practicable, mostly from afar but occasionally from not too far down the road. The Jubilee, DLR and the Overground have obviously made a difference to travel patterns in S.E. London over those thirty years, just as Crossrail will to the Woolwich/Thamesmead/Bexleyheath axis soon, but as far as journeys to central London from Lewisham and Catford etc go there really have been no noticeable rail improvements, indeed some worsening of service from some accounts. Routes like the 36 group, the 21 and the 47 were so vital and still could be, I feel, if some commonsense were to break out. If I live to be 100, I shan't see the Bakerloo at Lewisham, I know in my bones. Just reading in Coach and Bus Week that the 36 bus route between Leeds and Harrogate runs every 10 minutes for most of the day now, even though it doesn't take local passengers in Leeds: soon be more regular than London's 36! Already more frequent than our 11- now that's truly unbelievable!
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Post by rmz19 on Aug 3, 2018 2:36:04 GMT
Regarding the 47, despite the route's patronage decline, a cut to x12-15 mins on Sundays might be understandable, but x20 mins is just d*mn well outrageous. Give enthusiasts a job at TFL, at least we would have more sense and logic in managing services than TFL do judging by the ridiculous cuts lately.
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Post by sid on Aug 3, 2018 7:09:36 GMT
Well yes TfL could be doing something to encourage bus travel but I seem to recall the route branding exercise being met with much scepticism on here, it's not going to change things overnight but it's a step in the right direction just as WiFi and USB charging points would be. The main thing is speeding up journey times and eliminating buses being held at stops to regulate the service but until any of this happens there is little point in complaining about cuts in service if they are in keeping with a fall in demand. Oh and if you really want to encourage more fare paying passengers onto buses then I'm afraid free travel for kids and for OAP's before 09.30 has to go. The problem with the route branding was more that it was badly executed in a slapdash fashion, and in some cases by obscuring windows made bus travel less attractive. I'd be all in favour of a proper branding exercise supported by decent maps and publicity. But then that's something else TfL has given up on. I agree that the route branding could be a whole lot better and there seem to be far to many branded buses on wrong routes in the Hayes scheme, not in Barkingside though.
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Post by sid on Aug 3, 2018 7:17:11 GMT
I would certainly think the 47 deserves more than a x20 minute service Sunday daytimes, in fact that is a day when quite a few services need an increase, but unless we get some sort of reshaping exercise TfL will probably just continue as they are now with uncoordinated reductions seemingly done on a random basis. I would imagine the improved London Overground service will have taken a bit of custom from the 47. I'm genuinely shocked to see the headways on the 47 now, on any day of the week. I used to watch all the buses through Bromley South on a Sunday when visiting my grandfather as a kid in the 1950s/early 60s, and the frequency then was 4-5 minutes Shoreditch through to Bromley Garage. Even later, when this had probably become every 10 minutes on this section, they were certainly every 5 minutes Shoreditch to Surrey Docks, and on to Lewisham and TL for much of the day. The Overground may account for some of the abstraction from Surrey Quays, but what of the rest of the route? I can only assume that TfL. Network Rail at London Bridge, British Gas in the City, etc, have done for all this traffic. EVERY TWENTY MINUTES!! I just can't believe it - the 42, for God's sake, manages every 15 minutes. I can also remember the heyday of the 47 through to Bromley and Farnborough and I agree a x20 minute service on Sunday is ridiculous, as a random comparison even the 466 out to the wilds of Caterham gets a x15min service on Sunday. The Lewisham to Catford section is a bit over bussed though and rather than deal with that TfL just slash the whole service on the 47, this is why I think we need a complete overhaul of services rather than piecemeal uncoordinated changes.
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Post by snoggle on Aug 3, 2018 9:36:36 GMT
Regarding the 47, despite the route's patronage decline, a cut to x12-15 mins on Sundays might be understandable, but x20 mins is just d*mn well outrageous. Give enthusiasts a job at TFL, at least we would have more sense and logic in managing services than TFL do judging by the ridiculous cuts lately. Most of them have been sacked or, wisely, took the money and left. I suspect in the "bright young things rule the world" TfL of today enthusiasm would be frowned upon.
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Post by sid on Aug 3, 2018 9:51:33 GMT
Regarding the 47, despite the route's patronage decline, a cut to x12-15 mins on Sundays might be understandable, but x20 mins is just d*mn well outrageous. Give enthusiasts a job at TFL, at least we would have more sense and logic in managing services than TFL do judging by the ridiculous cuts lately. Most of them have been sacked or, wisely, took the money and left. I suspect in the "bright young things rule the world" TfL of today enthusiasm would be frowned upon. I suspect it would be a case of 'welcome to the real world' for many.
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Post by snoggle on Aug 3, 2018 10:08:33 GMT
Just reading in Coach and Bus Week that the 36 bus route between Leeds and Harrogate runs every 10 minutes for most of the day now, even though it doesn't take local passengers in Leeds: soon be more regular than London's 36! Already more frequent than our 11- now that's truly unbelievable! H&D's route 36 shows what you can do if (a) you recognise the value and potential of your routes (b) you recognise you're in the market for the long term and (c) are prepared to speculate to accumulate. The management have done a very good job at progressively building and improving route 36's service and quality. People do respond. It is demonstrably clear that TfL really have zero idea about how the value of their network, its potential and the crying need to market it properly. This is when failing to recognise that you need competence and effort beyond a purely analytical approach costs you dearly.
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Post by rmz19 on Aug 3, 2018 11:07:04 GMT
Most of them have been sacked or, wisely, took the money and left. I suspect in the "bright young things rule the world" TfL of today enthusiasm would be frowned upon. I suspect it would be a case of 'welcome to the real world' for many. What 'real world'? The world of waiting for an undesirable amount of time for a bus to come as a result of these cuts and it being nearly impossible to board it, then having to wait ages for the next one to come until it gets to the point where one gives up on using buses altogether? If that's the 'real world' then it's very concerning and unfortunately it seems to be heading towards that direction. More sense should be knocked into the powers that be in TFL...
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