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Post by southlondonbus on Mar 30, 2019 10:15:53 GMT
Can they seriously stop using the term ‘bus congestion’ - your a transport provider for goodness sake! Although it won’t matter, TfL could of easily got around this by splitting the route into two sections thus meaning people could get the second bus free and still improving reliability. That way a link would still be maintained from Oxford Circus across the City to maybe Bow Church or even Stratford. From Ilford, Aldgate is probably an acceptable terminus tbh like with the 155, 333, 363 and 468 at Elephant. |
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Post by sid on Mar 30, 2019 12:19:23 GMT
Can they seriously stop using the term ‘bus congestion’ - your a transport provider for goodness sake! Although it won’t matter, TfL could of easily got around this by splitting the route into two sections thus meaning people could get the second bus free and still improving reliability. The eastern end of Oxford Street was, and to some extent still is, often gridlocked with buses. What else would you call it other than bus congestion? As for the fare, I can understand people not being pleased but perhaps they should count themselves lucky to have had the opportunity to travel from Ilford to Oxford Circus for £1.50 for as long as they have? A lot of routes were split up long before hopper fare was introduced and passengers had to pay twice for the privilege of having to change buses. I do think though that the 25 should have continued to Oxford Circus until Crossrail opened but after that it may as well be cut back to Aldgate outside of peak hours. |
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Post by southlondonbus on Mar 30, 2019 12:25:29 GMT
Tbh to still be able to travel from Ilford right into the City is still pretty good when you think of the 115 only to Aldgate and the 476 only to Euston (soon to be Kings Cross).
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Post by busaholic on Mar 30, 2019 18:28:37 GMT
It's taken some while for the penny to drop, hasn't it? I was banging on about this almost from the time I joined the forum, well before its implementation. The reporting is only half accurate, but that's to be expected. I note TfL's weasel words relating to the number of passengers using the route from east of Whitechapel to Oxford Circus. That's using (current, not past) and to the final stop, never mind all those who got off between City Thameslink and one stop east of OC.If I were a local campaigner I'd ask for clarification from TfL, not that it'll make an iota of difference to the result, but these things shouldn't be accepted without protest. |
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Post by redbus on Mar 30, 2019 19:18:16 GMT
Can they seriously stop using the term ‘bus congestion’ - your a transport provider for goodness sake! Although it won’t matter, TfL could of easily got around this by splitting the route into two sections thus meaning people could get the second bus free and still improving reliability. The eastern end of Oxford Street was, and to some extent still is, often gridlocked with buses. What else would you call it other than bus congestion? As for the fare, I can understand people not being pleased but perhaps they should count themselves lucky to have had the opportunity to travel from Ilford to Oxford Circus for £1.50 for as long as they have? A lot of routes were split up long before hopper fare was introduced and passengers had to pay twice for the privilege of having to change buses. I do think though that the 25 should have continued to Oxford Circus until Crossrail opened but after that it may as well be cut back to Aldgate outside of peak hours. Let's call a spade a spade. What has happened is that the amount of road space and possible traffic throughput has been reduced significantly. In the specific case of Oxford Street where general traffic is not allowed, there can't be a large reduction in traffic as a result of the lower possible traffic throughput without reducing buses, result so called 'bus congestion'. So there are choices between the number of buses and the way changes are made to road junctions and layouts. Many of the 'improvements' do have a cost and that is undoubtedly one of the reasons for the fall in bus patronage and now a reduction in the number of buses to solve 'bus congestion'. In this post I am not trying to say what is right, just to say that when considering these types of improvements, the corresponding costs need to be properly considered and so far they have not been.
You are right that in the past bus routes were cut in half without too much care of the increased cost to passengers, but that was the past, expectations have moved on since then. Moreover the Mayor via TfL said there should not be an increased cost to passengers from the 25 curtailment due to the hopper fare, that was never promised in the past. People who land up paying twice as a result have every right to complain.
As for saying people are lucky to have travelled to Oxford Circus for so long for £1.50, be careful for what you wish for, are you suggesting that fares should rise? £1.50 doesn't just take you long distances, it also is the fare for one stop which is expensive. Are you suggesting we revert back to a distance based fare system instead of a flat fare?
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Post by sid on Mar 30, 2019 19:34:28 GMT
The eastern end of Oxford Street was, and to some extent still is, often gridlocked with buses. What else would you call it other than bus congestion? As for the fare, I can understand people not being pleased but perhaps they should count themselves lucky to have had the opportunity to travel from Ilford to Oxford Circus for £1.50 for as long as they have? A lot of routes were split up long before hopper fare was introduced and passengers had to pay twice for the privilege of having to change buses. I do think though that the 25 should have continued to Oxford Circus until Crossrail opened but after that it may as well be cut back to Aldgate outside of peak hours. Let's call a spade a spade. What has happened is that the amount of road space and possible traffic throughput has been reduced significantly. In the specific case of Oxford Street where general traffic is not allowed, there can't be a large reduction in traffic as a result of the lower possible traffic throughput without reducing buses, result so called 'bus congestion'. So there are choices between the number of buses and the way changes are made to road junctions and layouts. Many of the 'improvements' do have a cost and that is undoubtedly one of the reasons for the fall in bus patronage and now a reduction in the number of buses to solve 'bus congestion'. In this post I am not trying to say what is right, just to say that when considering these types of improvements, the corresponding costs need to be properly considered and so far they have not been.
You are right that in the past bus routes were cut in half without too much care of the increased cost to passengers, but that was the past, expectations have moved on since then. Moreover the Mayor via TfL said there should not be an increased cost to passengers from the 25 curtailment due to the hopper fare, that was never promised in the past. People who land up paying twice as a result have every right to complain.
As for saying people are lucky to have travelled to Oxford Circus for so long for £1.50, be careful for what you wish for, are you suggesting that fares should rise? £1.50 doesn't just take you long distances, it also is the fare for one stop which is expensive. Are you suggesting we revert back to a distance based fare system instead of a flat fare?
No I've not said anything about increasing fares or bringing back a distance based fare system but for people to have the temerity to complain that they can no longer do Ilford to Oxford Circus for £1.50..........well! Numerous routes have been reduced in length over the years and I don't really see what's different about the 25 although as I said I think it should have been retained to Oxford Circus until Crossrail opens. |
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Post by vjaska on Mar 30, 2019 21:54:22 GMT
Can they seriously stop using the term ‘bus congestion’ - your a transport provider for goodness sake! Although it won’t matter, TfL could of easily got around this by splitting the route into two sections thus meaning people could get the second bus free and still improving reliability. The eastern end of Oxford Street was, and to some extent still is, often gridlocked with buses. What else would you call it other than bus congestion? As for the fare, I can understand people not being pleased but perhaps they should count themselves lucky to have had the opportunity to travel from Ilford to Oxford Circus for £1.50 for as long as they have? A lot of routes were split up long before hopper fare was introduced and passengers had to pay twice for the privilege of having to change buses. I do think though that the 25 should have continued to Oxford Circus until Crossrail opened but after that it may as well be cut back to Aldgate outside of peak hours. It is gridlocked with buses because the road layout is a joke with endless traffic lights and reduced road space with results in actual real congestion which usually comes from other vehicles. This is not the fault of buses. |
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Post by snoggle on Mar 30, 2019 22:13:34 GMT
It is gridlocked with buses because the road layout is a joke with endless traffic lights and reduced road space with results in actual real congestion which usually comes from other vehicles. This is not the fault of buses. Last couple of times I've been in Oxford Street [1] there were hardly any buses in view - certainly on the eastern section. The concept of "gridock" caused by buses on Oxford St is laughable. Caused by zillions of taxis and private hire / Uber vehicles (that shouldn't even be there) well then perhaps there's an argument there. [1] usual comment about low number of visits meaning my sample size may not be representative. |
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Post by sid on Mar 30, 2019 22:47:29 GMT
The eastern end of Oxford Street was, and to some extent still is, often gridlocked with buses. What else would you call it other than bus congestion? As for the fare, I can understand people not being pleased but perhaps they should count themselves lucky to have had the opportunity to travel from Ilford to Oxford Circus for £1.50 for as long as they have? A lot of routes were split up long before hopper fare was introduced and passengers had to pay twice for the privilege of having to change buses. I do think though that the 25 should have continued to Oxford Circus until Crossrail opened but after that it may as well be cut back to Aldgate outside of peak hours. It is gridlocked with buses because the road layout is a joke with endless traffic lights and reduced road space with results in actual real congestion which usually comes from other vehicles. This is not the fault of buses. It's nothing to do with the road layout, since bus numbers have been reduced congestion has eased considerably. |
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Mar 30, 2019 22:54:40 GMT
It is gridlocked with buses because the road layout is a joke with endless traffic lights and reduced road space with results in actual real congestion which usually comes from other vehicles. This is not the fault of buses. It's nothing to do with the road layout, since bus numbers have been reduced congestion has eased considerably. Has it? I go through there almost everyday and all the space left by buses has just been filled by black cabs. |
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Post by sid on Mar 30, 2019 23:13:04 GMT
It's nothing to do with the road layout, since bus numbers have been reduced congestion has eased considerably. Has it? I go through there almost everyday and all the space left by buses has just been filled by black cabs. Not from what I've seen and I've linked photos of how much clearer it is, the only particular problem with black cabs is the cab rank outside Selfridges. |
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Post by redbus on Mar 31, 2019 17:37:00 GMT
Has it? I go through there almost everyday and all the space left by buses has just been filled by black cabs. Not from what I've seen and I've linked photos of how much clearer it is, the only particular problem with black cabs is the cab rank outside Selfridges. Parts of Oxford Street are definitely clearer, although to be fair there are times when congestion returns due to other traffic, primarily taxis. It is therefore not consistent.
What has happened over the years is that the road layout has changed, and more specifically traffic light phasing. This has led to an overall reduction in possible traffic throughput, and given a major part of the traffic was buses, bus 'congestion' was the result. We do need to separate the root cause and symptoms.
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Post by southlondonbus on Mar 31, 2019 18:18:59 GMT
I'm a bit surprised TFL haven't thinned out Selfridges to Marble Arch yet. Probably lack to stand space at Marble Arch but with the 189 back to Marble Arch and the 113 proposed to divert there again, there is the 2, 13, 74, 113, 189 and 274 from there to Baker Street.
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Post by rif153 on Mar 31, 2019 18:47:59 GMT
I'm a bit surprised TFL haven't thinned out Selfridges to Marble Arch yet. Probably lack to stand space at Marble Arch but with the 189 back to Marble Arch and the 113 proposed to divert there again, there is the 2, 13, 74, 113, 189 and 274 from there to Baker Street. I was just thinking that myself, I expect one of the 2 and 74 to be cut back to Marble Arch at some point but as you say, stand space at Marble Arch is the problem. I think they may just have to maintain the status quo unless they find a new northern terminus for one of the routes. A lot of pressure is being pushed on the stands at Marble Arch with only the 159 releasing stand space. This leads me to the conclusion that TFL will leave the 2 and 74 alone for now and instead cut to 30 back to Baker Street to create stand space for the 113. |
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Post by southlondonbus on Mar 31, 2019 18:50:36 GMT
With the 23/332 not now going to Lancaster Gate as planned, there may be stand space there that would be used by something from Marble Arch (137, 189 or 113).
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