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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2016 17:41:08 GMT
Spoke to a member of staff from a bus company today regard a proposal for route 25 to be reduced in frequency, and the route 425 to be extended to Ilford, removing the 25 short workings. aparantly this is not Crossrail related.
My understanding prior to the super cycle highway shredding that corridor to bits, was that busiest section on the 25 was between Manor Park and Aldgate. The 25 short workings used to cover a variation of Ilford - St. Paul's / Bank / Holborn Circus before the cycle works dramatically extended head ways, sparking a cut back of the short workings to Mile End.
I know user numbers on the 25 have dropped slightly, however it is still london bustiest bus route and deserves proper bus priority such as dedicated 24-hour bus lanes, not reduced road space and yet again another frequency reduction.
Apologies if this is only a rumour, I am just reaching out to the group to see whether there is any substance in these proposals?
Thanks
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Post by ThinLizzy on Sept 1, 2016 18:30:18 GMT
Spoke to a member of staff from a bus company today regard a proposal for route 25 to be reduced in frequency, and the route 425 to be extended to Ilford, removing the 25 short workings. aparantly this is not Crossrail related. My understanding prior to the super cycle highway shredding that corridor to bits, was that busiest section on the 25 was between Manor Park and Aldgate. The 25 short workings used to cover a variation of Ilford - St. Paul's / Bank / Holborn Circus before the cycle works dramatically extended head ways, sparking a cut back of the short workings to Mile End. I know user numbers on the 25 have dropped slightly, however it is still london bustiest bus route and deserves proper bus priority such as dedicated 24-hour bus lanes, not reduced road space and yet again another frequency reduction. Apologies if this is only a rumour, I am just reaching out to the group to see whether there is any substance in these proposals? Thanks To be honest, sounds a bit like canteen gossip to me. Ridership has probably dropped as a result of Boris Johnson doing everything he could to mess up Londons road network, which has been seen on some Central routes. I very much doubt anything will happen before Crossrail opens in a few years time. |
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Post by snoggle on Sept 1, 2016 19:29:32 GMT
To be honest, sounds a bit like canteen gossip to me. Ridership has probably dropped as a result of Boris Johnson doing everything he could to mess up Londons road network, which has been seen on some Central routes. I very much doubt anything will happen before Crossrail opens in a few years time. Agreed. Given the 25 is just on its new contract and had a consultation about working via the flyover then I'd have expected TfL to have sorted out any pending reorganisation back then. I can see why doing something with the 425 might be attractive to TfL but, as you say, Crossrail will be the trigger for the 25's death knell. |
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Post by sid on Sept 1, 2016 19:32:23 GMT
Spoke to a member of staff from a bus company today regard a proposal for route 25 to be reduced in frequency, and the route 425 to be extended to Ilford, removing the 25 short workings. aparantly this is not Crossrail related. My understanding prior to the super cycle highway shredding that corridor to bits, was that busiest section on the 25 was between Manor Park and Aldgate. The 25 short workings used to cover a variation of Ilford - St. Paul's / Bank / Holborn Circus before the cycle works dramatically extended head ways, sparking a cut back of the short workings to Mile End. I know user numbers on the 25 have dropped slightly, however it is still london bustiest bus route and deserves proper bus priority such as dedicated 24-hour bus lanes, not reduced road space and yet again another frequency reduction. Apologies if this is only a rumour, I am just reaching out to the group to see whether there is any substance in these proposals? Thanks To be honest, sounds a bit like canteen gossip to me. Ridership has probably dropped as a result of Boris Johnson doing everything he could to mess up Londons road network, which has been seen on some Central routes. I very much doubt anything will happen before Crossrail opens in a few years time. Perhaps ridership has dropped off because more people are cycling now that it's so much safer to do so? |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2016 19:48:33 GMT
To be honest, sounds a bit like canteen gossip to me. Ridership has probably dropped as a result of Boris Johnson doing everything he could to mess up Londons road network, which has been seen on some Central routes. I very much doubt anything will happen before Crossrail opens in a few years time. Perhaps ridership has dropped off because more people are cycling now that it's so much safer to do so? I would struggle to believe that cycling has directly taken a huge enough to portion of the 25 demand to trigger any changes. I do remember seeing figure recently around cycle usage and bus ridership still outstrips in by a very large number. Apologies I can't remember that figure off the top of my head, but it was publicly available. Yes more people are cycling, but more people are also shifting to other modes, including their own cars. |
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Post by sid on Sept 1, 2016 20:04:28 GMT
Perhaps ridership has dropped off because more people are cycling now that it's so much safer to do so? I would struggle to believe that cycling has directly taken a huge enough to portion of the 25 demand to trigger any changes. I do remember seeing figure recently around cycle usage and bus ridership still outstrips in by a very large number. Apologies I can't remember that figure off the top of my head, but it was publicly available. Yes more people are cycling, but more people are also shifting to other modes, including their own cars. No problem and what you've suggested does make a lot of sense but as others have alluded to I don't think anything will happen before Crossrail commences. |
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Post by southlondonbus on Sept 1, 2016 21:25:14 GMT
I saw at Ilford the other day the journey time of the 25 was 122 minutes to Oxford circus. If anything would put people off travelling end to end it's a 2 hour journey time.
Surely thou if the 25 additional Mile end to ilford section was withdrawn,whilst capacity would be maintained by extending the 425, it would also drop between Ilford and Mile end which I'm sure is a busy section.
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Post by mondraker275 on Sept 2, 2016 8:07:44 GMT
Spoke to a member of staff from a bus company today regard a proposal for route 25 to be reduced in frequency, and the route 425 to be extended to Ilford, removing the 25 short workings. aparantly this is not Crossrail related. My understanding prior to the super cycle highway shredding that corridor to bits, was that busiest section on the 25 was between Manor Park and Aldgate. The 25 short workings used to cover a variation of Ilford - St. Paul's / Bank / Holborn Circus before the cycle works dramatically extended head ways, sparking a cut back of the short workings to Mile End. I know user numbers on the 25 have dropped slightly, however it is still london bustiest bus route and deserves proper bus priority such as dedicated 24-hour bus lanes, not reduced road space and yet again another frequency reduction. Apologies if this is only a rumour, I am just reaching out to the group to see whether there is any substance in these proposals? Thanks The most unlikely aspect of this is the 425 extension. The route will struggle from Ilford to Clapton. It will become as long as the 25. The short workings are currently the most efficient method IMO for the 25. In terms of passenger numbers, I think most people who regularly use the bus are more likely to switch to using an adjacent tube/train line and pay a little extra. Passengers would have to make a completely radical change to go from a public transport user to suddenly commuting by bike because parts of your journey are now segregated. As stats show, as bus passenger numbers have gone down, tube numbers are breaking records. Cycling numbers are going up as well, but they have been for sometime anyway, and the rate is still the same. It is not like there has been a great jump, like you would get from a cycle hire scheme extension. |
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Post by snoggle on Sept 2, 2016 9:28:10 GMT
The most unlikely aspect of this is the 425 extension. The route will struggle from Ilford to Clapton. It will become as long as the 25. The short workings are currently the most efficient method IMO for the 25. In terms of passenger numbers, I think most people who regularly use the bus are more likely to switch to using an adjacent tube/train line and pay a little extra. Passengers would have to make a completely radical change to go from a public transport user to suddenly commuting by bike because parts of your journey are now segregated. As stats show, as bus passenger numbers have gone down, tube numbers are breaking records. Cycling numbers are going up as well, but they have been for sometime anyway, and the rate is still the same. It is not like there has been a great jump, like you would get from a cycle hire scheme extension. I think the situation is actually very complex and it will take a couple of years before anything like a reliable statistical picture emerges - especially on the 25's corridor. There's no doubt that some parts of London have seen a considerable increase in cycling and some reduction in bus usage. The picture has, though, been complicated by rail improvements. I've seen enough commentary to accept that people do eventually reach breaking point and then they move from public transport to cycling. Shoddy rail services and overloaded Tubes are as big a factor as unreliable slow buses in making people swap as anything else. Cost and improved cycling infrastructure will also be significant factors. There are now regular cycle jams - huge queues of cyclists - on the CSHs and longer established cycle routes in the centre. That doesn't happen unless you have some level of modal transfer. I'm not completely convinced that Crossrail is the "magic bullet" that makes the 25 redundant. There are 5 rail corridors in and around the 25's corridor - Central Line, Shenfield Line, DLR, C2C and District Line. At a push you could include the Jubilee Line. Despite all of that rail capacity - and it's been increased multiple fold over the years - the 25 has continued to see growth. Now OK the CSH works in East London plus Aldgate plus Crossrail works have done nothing for the route's performance over the last 18 months but it ain't dead yet. The price differential between bus and rail is enormous at peak times and we have to accept that for a significant number of peple that differential is financially material. We also need to recognise that there have been enormous population increases in Newham and Tower Hamlets and that is now creeping out to Redbridge and we've yet to see the real impact of Crossrail on where people choose to live. There is simply too much transport demand and too many drivers of that demand on the 25's corridor for it to suddenly collapse because TfL open a tunnel and run some longer trains. The frequency of the Shenfield line isn't going up in the peaks after Crossrail opens so nowt's changing in terms of service volume. All the trains will be stoppers so some people will have longer journeys from further out. You might have more room to crush inside a new Class 345 and you don't have the interchange time penalty if you want a stop on Crossrail's route but let's step back from the huge Crossrail hype and consider that not much is happening in East London that allows the dismantling and reduction of route 25. |
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Post by rmz19 on Sept 2, 2016 11:42:12 GMT
While it's feasible, if anything, extending the 425 to Ilford wouldn't be that beneficial to the 25 anyway, it would provide extra capacity along a part of the 25 route that is already served with the frequent 86 alongside. Rather, it's the Central London - Stratford Section that needs extra capacity and this is factoring in Crossrail as I believe the 25 won't be dramatically affected as everyone makes it out to be. Having an overlapping route between Holborn and Mile End (at which point it diverges elsewhere) would help alot more. Additionally, cutting the 205 to Baker Street and extending it to Stratford alongside the 25 would provide much needed assistance and the latter could be given a modest frequency decrease.
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Sept 2, 2016 12:02:36 GMT
What I feel will happen is that the 25 could potentially be made slightly worse by Crossrail, the main reason people don't use the tube and opt for the 25 is because it can save them an extra few pounds. The tube fare from Ilford to Oxford Circus in the peaks is £3.90 opposed to £1.50 on the bus. You save £2, but over the course of a 4 week period (working 5 days a week) you will save £40, that could be the equivalent spent on breakfast every week.
You also have the issue over when people come out of a Crossrail train after a long day at work, will they be bothered to walk home? Especially when the 25 will be stopping right outside the station and it will possibly take them closer to their home.
What I feel TfL should have done with the 25 is make no changes to the route and put it on a 5 year contract with new Hybrid buses. The current contract will expire in 2019, and with Crossrail still in early months it will hardly be enough to determine how the ridership patterns are changing across the route. Obviously some people might switch from the bus to Crossrail overnight, but in a few months switch back to the bus as Crossrail hasn't worked out for them the way they hoped.
I agree with @rmz-19 with the fact that another route needs to help the 25 straight from central London, however the 205 might not be the route mainly as I've seen it carrying its own crowds to Paddington, as well as being the last link East London has to the area. Personally I would restructure route 425 to operate between Stratford and London Bridge Station. I would also be tempted to extend route 115 deeper into central London to indirectly help the 25s corridor out, as one of the 25s biggest problems is the lack of bus links from central London to East London (currently the only ones are the 25 and 388 from the area). I'd be tempted to say Bank would be a good turning point for the 115.
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Post by vjaska on Sept 2, 2016 12:47:07 GMT
What I feel will happen is that the 25 could potentially be made slightly worse by Crossrail, the main reason people don't use the tube and opt for the 25 is because it can save them an extra few pounds. The tube fare from Ilford to Oxford Circus in the peaks is £3.90 opposed to £1.50 on the bus. You save £2, but over the course of a 4 week period (working 5 days a week) you will save £40, that could be the equivalent spent on breakfast every week. You also have the issue over when people come out of a Crossrail train after a long day at work, will they be bothered to walk home? Especially when the 25 will be stopping right outside the station and it will possibly take them closer to their home. What I feel TfL should have done with the 25 is make no changes to the route and put it on a 5 year contract with new Hybrid buses. The current contract will expire in 2019, and with Crossrail still in early months it will hardly be enough to determine how the ridership patterns are changing across the route. Obviously some people might switch from the bus to Crossrail overnight, but in a few months switch back to the bus as Crossrail hasn't worked out for them the way they hoped. I agree with @rmz-19 with the fact that another route needs to help the 25 straight from central London, however the 205 might not be the route mainly as I've seen it carrying its own crowds to Paddington, as well as being the last link East London has to the area. Personally I would restructure route 425 to operate between Stratford and London Bridge Station. I would also be tempted to extend route 115 deeper into central London to indirectly help the 25s corridor out, as one of the 25s biggest problems is the lack of bus links from central London to East London (currently the only ones are the 25 and 388 from the area). I'd be tempted to say Bank would be a good turning point for the 115. A couple of things: What replaces the 425 north of Mile End? I don't think it would of been sensible to convert the 25 to hybrids given the fairly young age of the VN's and the fact there would 60 odd buses to find homes for - I felt TfL achieved the right result in reviewing it in 2019. The 115 would personally be better off being extended to London Bridge creating a new link into East London. |
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Post by vjaska on Sept 2, 2016 12:48:52 GMT
While it's feasible, if anything, extending the 425 to Ilford wouldn't be that beneficial to the 25 anyway, it would provide extra capacity along a part of the 25 route that is already served with the frequent 86 alongside. Rather, it's the Central London - Stratford Section that needs extra capacity and this is factoring in Crossrail as I believe the 25 won't be dramatically affected as everyone makes it out to be. Having an overlapping route between Holborn and Mile End (at which point it diverges elsewhere) would help alot more. Additionally, cutting the 205 to Baker Street and extending it to Stratford alongside the 25 would provide much needed assistance and the latter could be given a modest frequency decrease. The Ilford to Stratford section is still incredibly busy even at weekends and I personally feel a third route will still be needed alongside the 25 or 425 & the 86. |
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Sept 2, 2016 12:56:27 GMT
A couple of things: What replaces the 425 north of Mile End? I don't think it would of been sensible to convert the 25 to hybrids given the fairly young age of the VN's and the fact there would 60 odd buses to find homes for - I felt TfL achieved the right result in reviewing it in 2019. The 115 would personally be better off being extended to London Bridge creating a new link into East London. I knew I forgot something  the 425 should be replaced by a new route running from Bow Church, or even another from Stratford (the more the merrier  ) Regardless the 25 will end up displacing 60 or so buses, if the route is reviewed in 2019 I feel that the review will be a much more short term view that will be put on for long term and not allowing for a proper study into the way the Elizabeth line affects ridership patterns. The Elizabeth line will only be fully operational in May 2019, the 25s result is due in June 2019 and TfL will probably end up guessing how ridership is to change rather than properly investigating it and they are more likely to make a mistake in the changes that are to happen to the route. |
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Post by sid on Sept 2, 2016 14:59:43 GMT
A couple of things: What replaces the 425 north of Mile End? I don't think it would of been sensible to convert the 25 to hybrids given the fairly young age of the VN's and the fact there would 60 odd buses to find homes for - I felt TfL achieved the right result in reviewing it in 2019. The 115 would personally be better off being extended to London Bridge creating a new link into East London. I knew I forgot something the 425 should be replaced by a new route running from Bow Church, or even another from Stratford (the more the merrier ) Regardless the 25 will end up displacing 60 or so buses, if the route is reviewed in 2019 I feel that the review will be a much more short term view that will be put on for long term and not allowing for a proper study into the way the Elizabeth line affects ridership patterns. The Elizabeth line will only be fully operational in May 2019, the 25s result is due in June 2019 and TfL will probably end up guessing how ridership is to change rather than properly investigating it and they are more likely to make a mistake in the changes that are to happen to the route. I suppose the 60 odd buses displaced is just a gamble TT took when they took on the route? I can't see TfL just leaving the 25 as it is when Crossrail starts in full, how could they justify the expense? I suspect there will be some coercion to get passengers off buses and onto the rails  ! |
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the 425 should be replaced by a new route running from Bow Church, or even another from Stratford (the more the merrier 
)