|
|
Post by enviroPB on Nov 24, 2016 16:54:18 GMT
Hello all. In order to help Alex answer his many queries for bus stands & turning points, I've decided to make this page as I too (and probably a few others) find it very intriguing where bus can and can't turn, where bus stands are hidden, which side roads buses are offically allowed to go down, etc. First stop is to head to the London Buses website and select any route of your fancy, and see how many curtailment points are allowed on any 1 route that isn't destination A or B. Then the fun (for me anyway  ) is to head on Google Maps Streetview to see if that stand is still there. For turning points only, I invisage if a bus can make along its allowed path of routing. I should say that not all turning points are made available for EVERY route, but there's still a lot of info to get lost in. Also the fun if you choose a local route; is to recollect if said route has ever had an unscheduled turn but for some reason, hasn't followed protocol via the documents. An example of this would be a stand that's disappeared but not updated in official documents. I should also state that these specs are a couple years out of date. Interesting findings so far: -route 36 isn't allowed to stand in Peckham bus station-turning point only -Plaistow, Bull Road stand has disappeared (for many years now, according to some members) despite it being in the offical document for routes 262, 473 -there are some displays that are meant to only make up for lost mileage & then for the bus to go dead to depot; eg. East Ham, Ron Leighton Way -sometimes a stand exists but operators will choose not to send buses there; eg. Upton Park, Claughton Road (negated due to badly parked cars) -stands that weren't serviceable in the past, rectified & now serviceable, but not reflected/updated in offical documents; eg. Upton Park, Stukeley Road. It would be really interesting to hear if anyone has any knowledge or experience to add to the overall understanding of how a bus route is run. For example; there was an incident right outside Forest Gate police station which blocked Green Street. 58 & 330 drivers wasted no time in using the offical turning point (Romford Road, Ratcliff Road, Finden Road) to head southbound to Upton Park! Okay I'll stop talking now lool. |
|
|
|
Post by RandomBusesGirl on Nov 24, 2016 16:59:59 GMT
Well I can only mention the route of my expertise - and that's the 308 of course; it appears the old terminus Clapton Park, Millfields ain't a turn despite the old stand being all intact (the closest turn is always Homerton Hospital) and I tried to ask why that is on the little open day at Stratford that Tower Transit held along with Stagecoach Bow - but they didn't quite know either: they said there had to be some underlying cause though.
I can recall the pre-extension 308 always did a return via a bunch of tight residential roads, then rejoined the line of route upon turning back into Chatsworth Road again, and I wonder if that's what would make this turn an issue in any way…
Still, very annoying all 308s only reach Homerton Hospital if something happens at the Lea Bridge roundabout ¬_¬
|
|
|
|
Post by enviroPB on Nov 24, 2016 17:21:37 GMT
Well I can only mention the route of my expertise - and that's the 308 of course; it appears the old terminus Clapton Park, Millfields ain't a turn despite the old stand being all intact (the closest turn is always Homerton Hospital) and I tried to ask why that is on the little open day at Stratford that Tower Transit held along with Stagecoach Bow - but they didn't quite know either: they said there had to be some underlying cause though. I can recall the pre-extension 308 always did a return via a bunch of tight residential roads, then rejoined the line of route upon turning back into Chatsworth Road again, and I wonder if that's what would make this turn an issue in any way… Still, very annoying all 308s only reach Homerton Hospital if something happens at the Lea Bridge roundabout ¬_¬ I think the fact that the 308 had to return via those side roads from Clapton Park meant the drivers were constantly remembering which roads* to go down. Now that it got extended to the Pond, TT aren't willing to take the risk of a driver being lost so probably why it isn't on there anymore. *I have never remembered the side roads the 308 went down when it started from Clapton Park. It always seemed fiddly & confusing to me  |
|
|
|
Post by enviroPB on Nov 24, 2016 17:24:25 GMT
While you're here RandomBusesGirl, have you seen any bus on the stand at Bective Road in Forest Gate? My hunch is that it was meant for the 58 (curtailed from Walthamstow) or routes 101 & W19; as their Aldersbrook turn allows them to come as far down as Bective Road to turn. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2016 17:53:47 GMT
College Park (Letchford Gardens) was an interesting one for me... I knew the 220 did turns north-south there but can 18's not use it as well?
|
|
|
|
Post by DT 11 on Nov 24, 2016 18:33:05 GMT
Hello all. In order to help Alex answer his many queries for bus stands & turning points, I've decided to make this page as I too (and probably a few others) find it very intriguing where bus can and can't turn, where bus stands are hidden, which side roads buses are offically allowed to go down, etc. First stop is to head to the London Buses website and select any route of your fancy, and see how many curtailment points are allowed on any 1 route that isn't destination A or B. Then the fun (for me anyway ) is to head on Google Maps Streetview to see if that stand is still there. For turning points only, I invisage if a bus can make along its allowed path of routing. I should say that not all turning points are made available for EVERY route, but there's still a lot of info to get lost in. Also the fun if you choose a local route; is to recollect if said route has ever had an unscheduled turn but for some reason, hasn't followed protocol via the documents. An example of this would be a stand that's disappeared but not updated in official documents. I should also state that these specs are a couple years out of date. Interesting findings so far: -route 36 isn't allowed to stand in Peckham bus station-turning point only -Plaistow, Bull Road stand has disappeared (for many years now, according to some members) despite it being in the offical document for routes 262, 473 -there are some displays that are meant to only make up for lost mileage & then for the bus to go dead to depot; eg. East Ham, Ron Leighton Way -sometimes a stand exists but operators will choose not to send buses there; eg. Upton Park, Claughton Road (negated due to badly parked cars) -stands that weren't serviceable in the past, rectified & now serviceable, but not reflected/updated in offical documents; eg. Upton Park, Stukeley Road. It would be really interesting to hear if anyone has any knowledge or experience to add to the overall understanding of how a bus route is run. For example; there was an incident right outside Forest Gate police station which blocked Green Street. 58 & 330 drivers wasted no time in using the offical turning point (Romford Road, Ratcliff Road, Finden Road) to head southbound to Upton Park! Okay I'll stop talking now lool. It may state this, but I have seen a 36 to Peckham standing in Peckham Bus Station before. Ian Armstrong's Website as you have stated above londonbuses.co.uk has the official Route record sheets for most routes. Additionally just because a route passes a turning point used by another route does not necessarily mean other routes will have it as an official turn. Examples: 177 to Thamesmead, Bolier House is only a official turn for the 177. It isn't for the 244, 229, 401, 472 or B11 according to the route records. Catford, Town Centre is on the route record for routes 47, 54, 75, 124, 136, 171, 181, 185, 202, 208, 284, N136, N171, N199. It is not a official turn 160, 320 or 336, However I have seen 320s curtailed at Catford, Town Centre before and go stright around the Gryratory back to Biggin Hill Valley, the 160 uses Hither Green so would have no need to use Catford, Town Centre. The 336 would use Downham. I think this is quite a good subject enviroPB. I would also like to add there are some routes with 1 official turn and some routes with no turns, and some routes with a specific turn just for it. There are some routes with loads of turning points, and some routes using the same turning point and it has different names. Examples 129 to East Greenwich from North Greenwich or Greenwich, Cutty Sark B13 to Avery Hill Road, Halfway Street from Bexleyheath Routes 327 & R9 have no turns according to the route records. 233 to Foots Cray, Ruxley Corner is used by no other route. |
|
|
|
Post by enviroPB on Nov 24, 2016 18:44:10 GMT
College Park (Letchford Gardens) was an interesting one for me... I knew the 220 did turns north-south there but can 18's not use it as well? Apparently not. The document date for route 18 is 2012 (so articulation operation ceased) and Letchford Gardens is not listed as an offical turn. Like TL1 just stated, just because a route goes by a turning point doesn't mean it is allowed to use the turn. |
|
|
|
Post by Unorm on Nov 24, 2016 18:54:06 GMT
West Norwood's Myton Road (for 322) which has never been used probably since the former 2 was replaced by 322, instead West Norwood turns are done by curtailing at every other route's Norwood Road/Robson Road southbound stop and dead running to probably 68's Ernest Avenue stand, instead of terminating/starting at Martell Road as stated by documents.
|
|
|
|
Post by RandomBusesGirl on Nov 24, 2016 18:56:11 GMT
While you're here RandomBusesGirl, have you seen any bus on the stand at Bective Road in Forest Gate? My hunch is that it was meant for the 58 (curtailed from Walthamstow) or routes 101 & W19; as their Aldersbrook turn allows them to come as far down as Bective Road to turn. Bective Road is actually a 330 stand, but hardly ever used. 508 made more use of it when it materialised xD |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2016 20:51:40 GMT
College Park (Letchford Gardens) was an interesting one for me... I knew the 220 did turns north-south there but can 18's not use it as well? Apparently not. The document date for route 18 is 2012 (so articulation operation ceased) and Letchford Gardens is not listed as an offical turn. Like TL1 just stated, just because a route goes by a turning point doesn't mean it is allowed to use the turn. Thanks for the info, though I am already aware that not all routes use all turns 👍🏽 |
|
|
|
Post by Lewis J.N. on Nov 24, 2016 21:47:08 GMT
My local route, the 114, has had a few anomalies in recent years. Every single curtailment point includes:
- Mill Hill / Bunn's Lane, which hasn't been used in decades.
- Burnt Oak Station, which wasn't on the official route record until last year.
- Burnt Oak Broadway, was on the blinds in the 1990s / early 2000s but then 'Broadway' was covered up when the turn changed to the station. Nowadays buses simply say 'Burnt Oak'
- Queensbury Station, which as far as I'm aware has always been there.
- Kenton Library, which was on the official route record but for some reason removed last year when BntOk/S.Rslp were added. The new Metroline blinds don't even feature it on there, but I have heard it has happened since they took the operation over.
- Kenton Station, which hasn't appeared in years.
- Northwick Park Station, was a Sovereign addition since the 183 has an official turn point there but the 114 does not. Very rare for a 114 to turn there and never showed on iBus (as it wasn't on the route record). Hasn't happened since UX took over.
- Harrow Bus Station, has always been there, although buses nowadays just say 'Harrow' unfortunately!
- Roxeth, Shaftesbury Circle, was more a 140 turn and hasn't been used in decades.
- South Harrow Station, has always been there, in fact before they standardised the service many buses where scheduled to turn there.
- Eastcote Lane / Eastcote Arms, became 'Field End Road / Victoria Road' in 2009, has always been there.
- South Ruislip / Black Bull, another (like Burnt Oak) was another which disappeared from the record in 2009 but reappeared last year. The Metroline blinds even feature the 'Black Bull' bit which is fantastic!
- Ruislip Lido, the old Summer Sunday extension, which I personally believe should come back because the H13s are rammed!
Other interesting stands I think, which are only there for curtailment purposes, are Yeading / Willowtree Lane, Bushey Heath / Alpine and Bath Road / Nobel Drive. The former looks odd because the stand sits up a little side road and I've never seen anything turn there. I once subbed a bus with a friend of mine on the 258 at Bushey Heath / Alpine too, so I've a shot of a little out-of-place 640!
|
|
|
|
Post by Alex on Nov 24, 2016 21:53:19 GMT
Hello all. In order to help Alex answer his many queries for bus stands & turning points, I've decided to make this page as I too (and probably a few others) find it very intriguing where bus can and can't turn, where bus stands are hidden, which side roads buses are offically allowed to go down, etc. Only a fast reply as still without wifi, being very careful at the moment....... Yes! I recall that yourself (Enviro), Thin Lizzy and I touched on the idea of a dedicated curtailment point thread when discussing Stukeley Road. I did toy with the idea of starting the dedicated thread myself, then decided against it and started the one about the 93. Starting this gets the thumbs up from me! Turning points are an interesting one as some are very obscure and can be a lot more long winded than you might first imagine! When I'm back on wifi more I'll think of some stuff to ask on here, at the min my data is just going, going, going (can't even get wifi on the tube now as I wiped my passwords on holiday doing a settings reset - my ex landlords Virgin password going with it), my own Virgin Media appointment (the condition of the ex NTL wires means I can't do the self install) is not until the 9th December : (( But well done Enviro and I'd agree the subject should get good activity.......I know what you mean about Google Maps, I've stumbled across some places while out on walks/bike rides too which is pretty fun : ) |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2016 22:07:15 GMT
My favourite is Twickenham Albany stand. Nowadays only used on rugby days for the split 281 service.
Another one is the temporary stand on the day of the Ride London event in Normansfield Rd Teddington for the 281 & 285.
Hanworth Fir Road, used to used by 111 short trips and briefly daily on the R70.
Penge Crooked Billet used for turns on the 194,197 & 227. Being used frequently at the moment !
|
|
|
|
Post by eggmiester on Nov 24, 2016 23:28:27 GMT
Hello all. In order to help Alex answer his many queries for bus stands & turning points, I've decided to make this page as I too (and probably a few others) find it very intriguing where bus can and can't turn, where bus stands are hidden, which side roads buses are offically allowed to go down, etc. First stop is to head to the London Buses website and select any route of your fancy, and see how many curtailment points are allowed on any 1 route that isn't destination A or B. Then the fun (for me anyway ) is to head on Google Maps Streetview to see if that stand is still there. For turning points only, I invisage if a bus can make along its allowed path of routing. I should say that not all turning points are made available for EVERY route, but there's still a lot of info to get lost in. Also the fun if you choose a local route; is to recollect if said route has ever had an unscheduled turn but for some reason, hasn't followed protocol via the documents. An example of this would be a stand that's disappeared but not updated in official documents. I should also state that these specs are a couple years out of date. Interesting findings so far: -route 36 isn't allowed to stand in Peckham bus station-turning point only -Plaistow, Bull Road stand has disappeared (for many years now, according to some members) despite it being in the offical document for routes 262, 473 -there are some displays that are meant to only make up for lost mileage & then for the bus to go dead to depot; eg. East Ham, Ron Leighton Way -sometimes a stand exists but operators will choose not to send buses there; eg. Upton Park, Claughton Road (negated due to badly parked cars) -stands that weren't serviceable in the past, rectified & now serviceable, but not reflected/updated in offical documents; eg. Upton Park, Stukeley Road. It would be really interesting to hear if anyone has any knowledge or experience to add to the overall understanding of how a bus route is run. For example; there was an incident right outside Forest Gate police station which blocked Green Street. 58 & 330 drivers wasted no time in using the offical turning point (Romford Road, Ratcliff Road, Finden Road) to head southbound to Upton Park! Okay I'll stop talking now lool. It may state this, but I have seen a 36 to Peckham standing in Peckham Bus Station before. Ian Armstrong's Website as you have stated above londonbuses.co.uk has the official Route record sheets for most routes. Additionally just because a route passes a turning point used by another route does not necessarily mean other routes will have it as an official turn. Examples: 177 to Thamesmead, Bolier House is only a official turn for the 177. It isn't for the 244, 229, 401, 472 or B11 according to the route records. Catford, Town Centre is on the route record for routes 47, 54, 75, 124, 136, 171, 181, 185, 202, 208, 284, N136, N171, N199. It is not a official turn 160, 320 or 336, However I have seen 320s curtailed at Catford, Town Centre before and go stright around the Gryratory back to Biggin Hill Valley, the 160 uses Hither Green so would have no need to use Catford, Town Centre. The 336 would use Downham. I think this is quite a good subject enviroPB. I would also like to add there are some routes with 1 official turn and some routes with no turns, and some routes with a specific turn just for it. There are some routes with loads of turning points, and some routes using the same turning point and it has different names. Examples 129 to East Greenwich from North Greenwich or Greenwich, Cutty Sark B13 to Avery Hill Road, Halfway Street from Bexleyheath Routes 327 & R9 have no turns according to the route records. 233 to Foots Cray, Ruxley Corner is used by no other route. Just a few things.. Thamesmead Boiler a house is an official turn on the B11 The B13's have a curtailment at Danson Underpass and the 286's also turn at Avery Hill, Halfway Street (they just show Avery Hill on their blinds). For the 'unofficial' turns such as Catford Town Centre on the 320, service controller should have to code such unofficial curtailments as Service Requirement as such curtailments are classed as deductible mileage. |
|
|
|
Post by vjaska on Nov 25, 2016 1:47:52 GMT
Was a rarity back in the day but always loved seeing a 'Brixton, George Canning' turn on a northbound 2 or southbound 432. This turn was displayed on some buses even after the George Canning became the Hobgoblin (other buses received 'Brixton, Hobgoblin' but I only ever saw it used once). For those wondering, the Hootonanny is the new name for the Hobgoblin & George Canning and the turn is now known as 'Brixton, Morval Road'  109's displaying 'Brixton, Vassall Road' always made me smile seeing as the DLA's were just too late to operate the 109 right up to Trafalgar Square (the turn was for the N109/N159) but nevertheless, this blind display survived right until the final S reg DLA's were withdrawn from TH in 2010. The S reg DLA's were the only DLA's capable of showing this - the later V, X, 52 & 03 reg DLA's at TH didn't receive this blind even though both the N109 & N159 passed Vassall Road. 'Brixton, Lambeth Town Hall' was another common display and a authorised turn for the 109 & 250 which always made me laugh given the next stop was the last stop  Lastly, I remember seeing on the excellent Buses at Work site that 'Brixton Hill, New Park Road' was a turning point - wonder where the stand was and why it's no longer a turning point? |
|
) is to head on Google Maps Streetview to see if that stand is still there. For turning points only, I invisage if a bus can make along its allowed path of routing. I should say that not all turning points are made available for EVERY route, but there's still a lot of info to get lost in. Also the fun if you choose a local route; is to recollect if said route has ever had an unscheduled turn but for some reason, hasn't followed protocol via the documents. An example of this would be a stand that's disappeared but not updated in official documents. I should also state that these specs are a couple years out of date.
