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Post by DT 11 on Nov 25, 2016 5:17:57 GMT
It may state this, but I have seen a 36 to Peckham standing in Peckham Bus Station before. Ian Armstrong's Website as you have stated above londonbuses.co.uk has the official Route record sheets for most routes. Additionally just because a route passes a turning point used by another route does not necessarily mean other routes will have it as an official turn. Examples: 177 to Thamesmead, Bolier House is only a official turn for the 177. It isn't for the 244, 229, 401, 472 or B11 according to the route records. Catford, Town Centre is on the route record for routes 47, 54, 75, 124, 136, 171, 181, 185, 202, 208, 284, N136, N171, N199. It is not a official turn 160, 320 or 336, However I have seen 320s curtailed at Catford, Town Centre before and go stright around the Gryratory back to Biggin Hill Valley, the 160 uses Hither Green so would have no need to use Catford, Town Centre. The 336 would use Downham. I think this is quite a good subject enviroPB. I would also like to add there are some routes with 1 official turn and some routes with no turns, and some routes with a specific turn just for it. There are some routes with loads of turning points, and some routes using the same turning point and it has different names. Examples 129 to East Greenwich from North Greenwich or Greenwich, Cutty Sark B13 to Avery Hill Road, Halfway Street from Bexleyheath Routes 327 & R9 have no turns according to the route records. 233 to Foots Cray, Ruxley Corner is used by no other route. Just a few things.. Thamesmead Boiler a house is an official turn on the B11 The B13's have a curtailment at Danson Underpass and the 286's also turn at Avery Hill, Halfway Street (they just show Avery Hill on their blinds). For the 'unofficial' turns such as Catford Town Centre on the 320, service controller should have to code such unofficial curtailments as Service Requirement as such curtailments are classed as deductible mileage. About the B11 your right. Didn't think it was www.londonbuses.co.uk/route-records/B11.pdfIt is not official on the route record, having done the B13 it is not on the MDT. www.londonbuses.co.uk/route-records/B13.pdf |
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Post by enviroPB on Nov 25, 2016 20:45:15 GMT
Was a rarity back in the day but always loved seeing a 'Brixton, George Canning' turn on a northbound 2 or southbound 432. This turn was displayed on some buses even after the George Canning became the Hobgoblin (other buses received 'Brixton, Hobgoblin' but I only ever saw it used once). For those wondering, the Hootonanny is the new name for the Hobgoblin & George Canning and the turn is now known as 'Brixton, Morval Road'  109's displaying 'Brixton, Vassall Road' always made me smile seeing as the DLA's were just too late to operate the 109 right up to Trafalgar Square (the turn was for the N109/N159) but nevertheless, this blind display survived right until the final S reg DLA's were withdrawn from TH in 2010. The S reg DLA's were the only DLA's capable of showing this - the later V, X, 52 & 03 reg DLA's at TH didn't receive this blind even though both the N109 & N159 passed Vassall Road. 'Brixton, Lambeth Town Hall' was another common display and a authorised turn for the 109 & 250 which always made me laugh given the next stop was the last stop  Lastly, I remember seeing on the excellent Buses at Work site that 'Brixton Hill, New Park Road' was a turning point - wonder where the stand was and why it's no longer a turning point? Haven't had the greatest browse in south London but I am really surprised by the stands at Vassall Road. If I'm correct, the Camberwell New Road, Brixton Road and Clapham Road routes (bar the 333) all use those stands. Those 8 or 9 odd routes which are very high in PVR; make it crucial for not 1 but 2 bus stands to be erected!!   |
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Post by enviroPB on Nov 25, 2016 20:48:14 GMT
Hello all. In order to help Alex answer his many queries for bus stands & turning points, I've decided to make this page as I too (and probably a few others) find it very intriguing where bus can and can't turn, where bus stands are hidden, which side roads buses are offically allowed to go down, etc. I would also like to add there are some routes with 1 official turn and some routes with no turns, and some routes with a specific turn just for it. There are some routes with loads of turning points, and some routes using the same turning point and it has different names. Examples 129 to East Greenwich from North Greenwich or Greenwich, Cutty Sark B13 to Avery Hill Road, Halfway Street from Bexleyheath Routes 327 & R9 have no turns according to the route records. 233 to Foots Cray, Ruxley Corner is used by no other route. I'd like to add route 323 to the list. Between the termini of Mile End and Canning Town; the route is only allowed to curtail at East London Mail Centre and is the norm if traffic on both the A12 & A13 get particularly bad. |
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Post by vjaska on Nov 25, 2016 20:49:01 GMT
Was a rarity back in the day but always loved seeing a 'Brixton, George Canning' turn on a northbound 2 or southbound 432. This turn was displayed on some buses even after the George Canning became the Hobgoblin (other buses received 'Brixton, Hobgoblin' but I only ever saw it used once). For those wondering, the Hootonanny is the new name for the Hobgoblin & George Canning and the turn is now known as 'Brixton, Morval Road' 109's displaying 'Brixton, Vassall Road' always made me smile seeing as the DLA's were just too late to operate the 109 right up to Trafalgar Square (the turn was for the N109/N159) but nevertheless, this blind display survived right until the final S reg DLA's were withdrawn from TH in 2010. The S reg DLA's were the only DLA's capable of showing this - the later V, X, 52 & 03 reg DLA's at TH didn't receive this blind even though both the N109 & N159 passed Vassall Road. 'Brixton, Lambeth Town Hall' was another common display and a authorised turn for the 109 & 250 which always made me laugh given the next stop was the last stop Lastly, I remember seeing on the excellent Buses at Work site that 'Brixton Hill, New Park Road' was a turning point - wonder where the stand was and why it's no longer a turning point? Haven't had the greatest browse in south London but I am really surprised by the stands at Vassall Road. If I'm correct, the Camberwell New Road, Brixton Road and Clapham Road routes (bar the 333) all use those stands. Those 8 or 9 odd routes which are very high in PVR; make it crucial for not 1 but 2 bus stands to be erected!! Nowadays, only the P5 stands on Vassall Road and out of service vehicles from Q & SW - P5's display 'Camberwell New Road' as the destination |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2016 21:00:45 GMT
There is a disused alighting point only bus stop / flag on Penge High Street for the Crooked Billet stand. I've never seen any driver use it. Not marked on the road as a bus stop. In practice the main stop outside the utter rubbish post office is used as the alighting point for the 227 short turns. However the 194 drivers always kick everyone off at Penge Sainsburys and run light to/from the stand.
Whitton Church is a good one, quite nicely off route for the 281, and not actually at Whitton Church, but on Whitton Dene. The H22 can use it as well, displaying Whitton Dene rather than Whitton Church , because the H22 doesn't go past Whitton Church !
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Post by jay38a on Nov 25, 2016 22:54:02 GMT
Hello all. In order to help Alex answer his many queries for bus stands & turning points, I've decided to make this page as I too (and probably a few others) find it very intriguing where bus can and can't turn, where bus stands are hidden, which side roads buses are offically allowed to go down, etc. First stop is to head to the London Buses website and select any route of your fancy, and see how many curtailment points are allowed on any 1 route that isn't destination A or B. Then the fun (for me anyway  ) is to head on Google Maps Streetview to see if that stand is still there. For turning points only, I invisage if a bus can make along its allowed path of routing. I should say that not all turning points are made available for EVERY route, but there's still a lot of info to get lost in. Also the fun if you choose a local route; is to recollect if said route has ever had an unscheduled turn but for some reason, hasn't followed protocol via the documents. An example of this would be a stand that's disappeared but not updated in official documents. I should also state that these specs are a couple years out of date. Interesting findings so far: -route 36 isn't allowed to stand in Peckham bus station-turning point only -Plaistow, Bull Road stand has disappeared (for many years now, according to some members) despite it being in the offical document for routes 262, 473 -there are some displays that are meant to only make up for lost mileage & then for the bus to go dead to depot; eg. East Ham, Ron Leighton Way -sometimes a stand exists but operators will choose not to send buses there; eg. Upton Park, Claughton Road (negated due to badly parked cars) -stands that weren't serviceable in the past, rectified & now serviceable, but not reflected/updated in offical documents; eg. Upton Park, Stukeley Road. It would be really interesting to hear if anyone has any knowledge or experience to add to the overall understanding of how a bus route is run. For example; there was an incident right outside Forest Gate police station which blocked Green Street. 58 & 330 drivers wasted no time in using the offical turning point (Romford Road, Ratcliff Road, Finden Road) to head southbound to Upton Park! Okay I'll stop talking now lool. It may state this, but I have seen a 36 to Peckham standing in Peckham Bus Station before. Ian Armstrong's Website as you have stated above londonbuses.co.uk has the official Route record sheets for most routes. Additionally just because a route passes a turning point used by another route does not necessarily mean other routes will have it as an official turn. Examples: 177 to Thamesmead, Bolier House is only a official turn for the 177. It isn't for the 244, 229, 401, 472 or B11 according to the route records. Catford, Town Centre is on the route record for routes 47, 54, 75, 124, 136, 171, 181, 185, 202, 208, 284, N136, N171, N199. It is not a official turn 160, 320 or 336, However I have seen 320s curtailed at Catford, Town Centre before and go stright around the Gryratory back to Biggin Hill Valley, the 160 uses Hither Green so would have no need to use Catford, Town Centre. The 336 would use Downham. I think this is quite a good subject enviroPB. I would also like to add there are some routes with 1 official turn and some routes with no turns, and some routes with a specific turn just for it. There are some routes with loads of turning points, and some routes using the same turning point and it has different names. Examples 129 to East Greenwich from North Greenwich or Greenwich, Cutty Sark B13 to Avery Hill Road, Halfway Street from Bexleyheath Routes 327 & R9 have no turns according to the route records. 233 to Foots Cray, Ruxley Corner is used by no other route. The R9 does have a turning point "Orpington Walnuts Centre" |
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Post by 6HP502C on Nov 26, 2016 2:57:20 GMT
M Penge Crooked Billet used for turns on the 194,197 & 227. Being used frequently at the moment ! The N3 too. It is used once in a blue moon. |
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Post by sid on Nov 26, 2016 21:43:59 GMT
There is a disused alighting point only bus stop / flag on Penge High Street for the Crooked Billet stand. I've never seen any driver use it. Not marked on the road as a bus stop. In practice the main stop outside the sh*tty post office is used as the alighting point for the 227 short turns. However the 194 drivers always kick everyone off at Penge Sainsburys and run light to/from the stand. Whitton Church is a good one, quite nicely off route for the 281, and not actually at Whitton Church, but on Whitton Dene. The H22 can use it as well, displaying Whitton Dene rather than Whitton Church , because the H22 doesn't go past Whitton Church ! The 194, and 358 for that matter, drivers are supposed to turf everyone off at Sainsburys as of course the Crooked Billet stand is off their normal route. Late running 358's often go OOS to Crystal Palace via the 227 route. |
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Post by maximus23 on Nov 26, 2016 23:54:46 GMT
I've always wondered how the 98 gets to the stand in Coverdale road (just off willesden lane) and whether it is an official turning point. I'm happy to be corrected but don't some blinds say WILLESDEN LANE Christchurch?
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Post by Hassaan on Nov 27, 2016 1:14:54 GMT
The curtailment at "Southall, The Green" is only allowed for the 120, 482 and H32, not the 105, 195 or E5.
The 111 can curtail to Heston, and this exists on iBus, but no SPs or ADEs at Hounslow have it on the blinds!
The 474 and N551 can't curtail to Gallions Reach Station, despite passing it. Only the 101, 262 and 366 are allowed to.
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Post by eggmiester on Nov 27, 2016 2:18:37 GMT
Just a few things.. Thamesmead Boiler a house is an official turn on the B11 The B13's have a curtailment at Danson Underpass and the 286's also turn at Avery Hill, Halfway Street (they just show Avery Hill on their blinds). For the 'unofficial' turns such as Catford Town Centre on the 320, service controller should have to code such unofficial curtailments as Service Requirement as such curtailments are classed as deductible mileage. About the B11 your right. Didn't think it was www.londonbuses.co.uk/route-records/B11.pdfIt is not official on the route record, having done the B13 it is not on the MDT. www.londonbuses.co.uk/route-records/B13.pdfThat B13 route record is slightly out of date, it would have had a new record for the new contract that started in January which may have had the additional turns added. The B13's also have Bexleyheath Library as well on their ENR blinds (having seen one scroll through at Bexleyheath yesterday) Turns can be added or removed mid contract as well normally as a result of a road layout chafe or major development works. Route P12 has just had a turn added at Peckham Rye, which it hasn't had for the past 5 years or so and route 63 gained a Farringdon Street turn in place of its Ludgate Circus turn which it lost some years ago when Stonecutter St was pedestrianised. |
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Post by jay38a on Nov 27, 2016 2:23:37 GMT
There is a disused alighting point only bus stop / flag on Penge High Street for the Crooked Billet stand. I've never seen any driver use it. Not marked on the road as a bus stop. In practice the main stop outside the sh*tty post office is used as the alighting point for the 227 short turns. However the 194 drivers always kick everyone off at Penge Sainsburys and run light to/from the stand. Whitton Church is a good one, quite nicely off route for the 281, and not actually at Whitton Church, but on Whitton Dene. The H22 can use it as well, displaying Whitton Dene rather than Whitton Church , because the H22 doesn't go past Whitton Church ! The 194, and 358 for that matter, drivers are supposed to turf everyone off at Sainsburys as of course the Crooked Billet stand is off their normal route. Late running 358's often go OOS to Crystal Palace via the 227 route. Both are wrong about the 358. Light form Penge to CPP was never done in the 3 years I was at MB and drivers never said anything about it as it's roughly the same time both ways so doesn't make any difference. They use light to and from Elmers End and run via Birkbeck. The turn on the 358 is left at Pawleyne Arms, chuck off at the stop in Croydon Rosd then spin round like the 176 does. |
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Post by DT 11 on Nov 27, 2016 6:01:12 GMT
That B13 route record is slightly out of date, it would have had a new record for the new contract that started in January which may have had the additional turns added. The B13's also have Bexleyheath Library as well on their ENR blinds (having seen one scroll through at Bexleyheath yesterday) Turns can be added or removed mid contract as well normally as a result of a road layout chafe or major development works. Route P12 has just had a turn added at Peckham Rye, which it hasn't had for the past 5 years or so and route 63 gained a Farringdon Street turn in place of its Ludgate Circus turn which it lost some years ago when Stonecutter St was pedestrianised. The two you have stated will only be used when there is two B13 so you will rarely see them, in the event there were severe delays you would have to be around the route to see one they are not on the MDT either only Avery Hill Road is on it. |
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Post by sid on Nov 27, 2016 6:40:25 GMT
The 194, and 358 for that matter, drivers are supposed to turf everyone off at Sainsburys as of course the Crooked Billet stand is off their normal route. Late running 358's often go OOS to Crystal Palace via the 227 route. Both are wrong about the 358. Light form Penge to CPP was never done in the 3 years I was at MB and drivers never said anything about it as it's roughly the same time both ways so doesn't make any difference. They use light to and from Elmers End and run via Birkbeck. The turn on the 358 is left at Pawleyne Arms, chuck off at the stop in Croydon Rosd then spin round like the 176 does. Light from Penge via the 227 was during roadworks at Anerley, obviously not a regular thing then. |
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Post by enviroPB on Nov 28, 2016 1:17:22 GMT
The curtailment at "Southall, The Green" is only allowed for the 120, 482 and H32, not the 105, 195 or E5. The 111 can curtail to Heston, and this exists on iBus, but no SPs or ADEs at Hounslow have it on the blinds! The 474 and N551 can't curtail to Gallions Reach Station, despite passing it. Only the 101, 262 and 366 are allowed to. It has to be said that some night routes simply won't call at all possible curtailment points; a reason could be that residents don't want their beauty sleep disturbed by buses, such as a late VLA roaring down their street lool. Let's take the N550 for example. It does not have any turns in the Isle of Dogs; however mirror route D7 has Canary Wharf, Island Gardens & Cubitt Town. Ignoring Canary Wharf for possible security reasons, route N550 goes past the Island Gardens stand & Cubitt Town turning point but isn't contracted to use them. |
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) is to head on Google Maps Streetview to see if that stand is still there. For turning points only, I invisage if a bus can make along its allowed path of routing. I should say that not all turning points are made available for EVERY route, but there's still a lot of info to get lost in. Also the fun if you choose a local route; is to recollect if said route has ever had an unscheduled turn but for some reason, hasn't followed protocol via the documents. An example of this would be a stand that's disappeared but not updated in official documents. I should also state that these specs are a couple years out of date.
