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Post by vjaska on Nov 28, 2021 0:43:30 GMT
I wish I was getting 18k, I'd be absolutely delighted Have you considered a change in career then? not being sarcastic. None taken -o f course but there are perks to staying where I am but whether I stay there or not shouldn't dictate overall conditions across the board
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Post by Alex on Nov 28, 2021 1:03:43 GMT
]So what makes you think they are doing nothing most of the day. So why should a security person be paid £30k to stand around and most of the day do nothing but watching and waiting for something to happen. There is an endless list of examples I can come up with. Sounds like jealousy from my perspective. That reminds me of the quote I heard once about the fire brigade, someone said of the time when there’s nothing going on and they’re in the fire station - what else would they be doing, looking for fires? I agree there’s endless examples, but what’s the harm? Better to have more people in work doing something rather than nothing at all.
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Post by Lukeo on Nov 28, 2021 1:38:17 GMT
The issue is not the wage, but the work/salary ratio. Why is a driver that's in a cab doing nothing most of the day earning such a high amount of money? Footballers have to put in hours of training everyday, bankers work pretty much around the clock so I'd say their pay is more justified. If tube drivers on 50K are working class, what about the retail workers on 18K? So what makes you think they are doing nothing most of the day. So why should a security person be paid £30k to stand around and most of the day do nothing but watching and waiting for something to happen. There is an endless list of examples I can come up with. Sounds like jealousy from my perspective. I think what you're missing here is that tube drivers (not all of them, I know) go on strike every so often and it causes unnecessary inconvenience for a lot of people (e.g. once happened during my uni exams which was very stressful). It essentially makes it seem as though they believe they are worth more than their salary and/or they don't appreciate the salary they are on, which leads to opinions such as they shouldn't be striking because they're paid very well in comparison to other jobs. This isn't a problem with footballers or security people so I don't see the point of your examples.
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Post by snowman on Nov 28, 2021 6:08:28 GMT
Yes, it depends on what in retail they are doing and the hours. I am sure full time retail, there would be no one working this, as that would equate to around just over £4 per hour. The tube driver job is a very difficult job to gain and is one of the easiest jobs to get sacked from. There is a lot of training and regulations that far surpass the standard everyday driving. But would I say it is worth £50k, no. But then that is down to what the unions have achieved over the years. Thanks for answering Getting full time jobs in retail is almost impossible and has been for a few years now - the best you'll get is part time and in some places, you wouldn't even get that hence the 10k figure I gave. You cannot use a part time worker in a salary comparison, unless you make it a full time equivalent. As a rough guide 1700 hours is normal full time contracted hours (about 37-38 hours per week, allowing for bank holidays and 4-5 weeks holiday), so a person on minimum living wage gets £17k. No one full time earns £10k And tube workers don’t get £50k, their salary package is nearer £75k (TfL pays about £15k into pension scheme, and get 2 free annual travel cards, which most people paying 40% tax would need to earn £8k to buy)
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Nov 28, 2021 18:35:42 GMT
The issue is not the wage, but the work/salary ratio. Why is a driver that's in a cab doing nothing most of the day earning such a high amount of money? Footballers have to put in hours of training everyday, bankers work pretty much around the clock so I'd say their pay is more justified. If tube drivers on 50K are working class, what about the retail workers on 18K? So what makes you think they are doing nothing most of the day. So why should a security person be paid £30k to stand around and most of the day do nothing but watching and waiting for something to happen. There is an endless list of examples I can come up with. Sounds like jealousy from my perspective. A security guard stands around and standing burns more calories and has a more negative effect on the body and they're more often than not actually on the front line as opposed to being stuck behind a cab door. Let the drivers have their 50K, you can't take away what you already have given them. But you can get them to do some work without complaining. When was the last time footballers went on strike and when was the last time a banker went on strike? When was the last time a footballer even complained about their wage? I don't see where jealousy comes into this, if I was jealous I'd just attempt to work a way to getting a job there myself. But the fact is these tube drivers who earn 50K are complaining they don't earn enough money, don't want to work just 4 nights a year to aid the general public and then go out of their way to disrupt the general public who often earn a lot less than them. It's downright irritating to many people who earn a lot less when your pay has been docked because someone who earns 50K wants even more money and then proceeds to take their anger out on you. It's just entitlement.
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Post by capitalomnibus on Nov 28, 2021 21:01:00 GMT
So what makes you think they are doing nothing most of the day. So why should a security person be paid £30k to stand around and most of the day do nothing but watching and waiting for something to happen. There is an endless list of examples I can come up with. Sounds like jealousy from my perspective. A security guard stands around and standing burns more calories and has a more negative effect on the body and they're more often than not actually on the front line as opposed to being stuck behind a cab door. Let the drivers have their 50K, you can't take away what you already have given them. But you can get them to do some work without complaining. When was the last time footballers went on strike and when was the last time a banker went on strike? When was the last time a footballer even complained about their wage? I don't see where jealousy comes into this, if I was jealous I'd just attempt to work a way to getting a job there myself. But the fact is these tube drivers who earn 50K are complaining they don't earn enough money, don't want to work just 4 nights a year to aid the general public and then go out of their way to disrupt the general public who often earn a lot less than them. It's downright irritating to many people who earn a lot less when your pay has been docked because someone who earns 50K wants even more money and then proceeds to take their anger out on you. It's just entitlement. I am sorry, but your attitude towards tube drivers is blatantly disgusting. So because they earn £50k they must do whatever TfL tells them and be submissive. What next, you would want them to be cleaning toilets with their bare hands, or how about take a punch in the face from each passenger when there is a signal failure. Tube drivers are at risk when they crew change or reach the end of the route to go to the next side or putting passengers off. I have known of them being assaulted verbally and physically, same as what has happened to bus drivers. Night work should NOT be compulsory especially if you did NOT sign up for it. Footballer do and have complained about their wage, and at times have threatened to leave to other clubs. If you think they earn to much, then why don't you go for the job yourself. I travelled to work by tube and train on the strike Friday, I could have drove but chose not to. After all, if you are willing to you would.
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Nov 28, 2021 21:41:19 GMT
A security guard stands around and standing burns more calories and has a more negative effect on the body and they're more often than not actually on the front line as opposed to being stuck behind a cab door. Let the drivers have their 50K, you can't take away what you already have given them. But you can get them to do some work without complaining. When was the last time footballers went on strike and when was the last time a banker went on strike? When was the last time a footballer even complained about their wage? I don't see where jealousy comes into this, if I was jealous I'd just attempt to work a way to getting a job there myself. But the fact is these tube drivers who earn 50K are complaining they don't earn enough money, don't want to work just 4 nights a year to aid the general public and then go out of their way to disrupt the general public who often earn a lot less than them. It's downright irritating to many people who earn a lot less when your pay has been docked because someone who earns 50K wants even more money and then proceeds to take their anger out on you. It's just entitlement. I am sorry, but your attitude towards tube drivers is blatantly disgusting. So because they earn £50k they must do whatever TfL tells them and be submissive. What next, you would want them to be cleaning toilets with their bare hands, or how about take a punch in the face from each passenger when there is a signal failure. Tube drivers are at risk when they crew change or reach the end of the route to go to the next side or putting passengers off. I have known of them being assaulted verbally and physically, same as what has happened to bus drivers. Night work should NOT be compulsory especially if you did NOT sign up for it. Footballer do and have complained about their wage, and at times have threatened to leave to other clubs. If you think they earn to much, then why don't you go for the job yourself. I travelled to work by tube and train on the strike Friday, I could have drove but chose not to. After all, if you are willing to you would. I couldn't care less if I have this attitude, I know many members of the public feel the exact same way. I'm sure if it was well publicised how much a tube driver earns then there'd be an uprising. Also yes, if you earn 50K I'd hope you would do what your employer is paying you that sort of money for. It should never be a case where an employee takes away an effectively middle class wage and then also dictates terms to an employer who's paying them that sort of wage. It's laughable you say that tube drivers put themselves at risk when they change drivers which is probably less than 10% of their total shift time, as opposed to around 99% of the total shift time of hospital staff and retail workers. Apart from the very little time they spend changing drivers they spend pretty much the entire journey in a cab. Jobs change, if the tube drivers are refusing to adapt then you'll have to force them to adapt and if that be working through the night for 4 nights out of 365 then so be it. Again if in a retail or hospital setting you refused to follow this you'd be sacked without hesitation. It's funny that they claim it would "wreck" home/life balance. What are the rest of the night workers in other industries to them then? People who have no life? When you pay well in the thousands for your travel each year, and you see people striking for more money when their wages are 50K a year and they get free transport it just screams of total entitlement. The general public who generally earn a lot less than them have places to be and will most likely get their pay docked if they're late to work and then don't make the hours up.
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Post by Alex on Nov 28, 2021 22:22:46 GMT
When you pay well in the thousands for your travel each year, and you see people striking for more money when their wages are 50K a year and they get free transport it just screams of total entitlement. More money? This has got nothing to do with pay! What it is to do with, is a unagreed change on something that is binding, non-negotiable and contractual. It doesn’t matter if it’s four or forty-four nights a year, it’s not the actual shifts being worked that’s the issue. It’s the way it’s been organised. While I do get the frustration of the public, sadly sometimes industrial action is the only way to get companies to listen. Personally I’d rather workers and companies everywhere had a set up where they could get along all the time but it’s not always going to happen, likewise I’d like to see workers generally have improved conditions and employment packages. I was hoping the fuel tanker drivers would be the first part of the movement for that, and there’s still time
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Post by southlondon413 on Nov 28, 2021 23:02:22 GMT
I am sorry, but your attitude towards tube drivers is blatantly disgusting. So because they earn £50k they must do whatever TfL tells them and be submissive. What next, you would want them to be cleaning toilets with their bare hands, or how about take a punch in the face from each passenger when there is a signal failure. Tube drivers are at risk when they crew change or reach the end of the route to go to the next side or putting passengers off. I have known of them being assaulted verbally and physically, same as what has happened to bus drivers. Night work should NOT be compulsory especially if you did NOT sign up for it. Footballer do and have complained about their wage, and at times have threatened to leave to other clubs. If you think they earn to much, then why don't you go for the job yourself. I travelled to work by tube and train on the strike Friday, I could have drove but chose not to. After all, if you are willing to you would. I couldn't care less if I have this attitude, I know many members of the public feel the exact same way. I'm sure if it was well publicised how much a tube driver earns then there'd be an uprising. Also yes, if you earn 50K I'd hope you would do what your employer is paying you that sort of money for. It should never be a case where an employee takes away an effectively middle class wage and then also dictates terms to an employer who's paying them that sort of wage. It's laughable you say that tube drivers put themselves at risk when they change drivers which is probably less than 10% of their total shift time, as opposed to around 99% of the total shift time of hospital staff and retail workers. Apart from the very little time they spend changing drivers they spend pretty much the entire journey in a cab. Jobs change, if the tube drivers are refusing to adapt then you'll have to force them to adapt and if that be working through the night for 4 nights out of 365 then so be it. Again if in a retail or hospital setting you refused to follow this you'd be sacked without hesitation. It's funny that they claim it would "wreck" home/life balance. What are the rest of the night workers in other industries to them then? People who have no life? When you pay well in the thousands for your travel each year, and you see people striking for more money when their wages are 50K a year and they get free transport it just screams of total entitlement. The general public who generally earn a lot less than them have places to be and will most likely get their pay docked if they're late to work and then don't make the hours up. Talking out your arse. Tube driver salary is well publicised every time something like a strike comes up and everyone grumbles and then forgets because no one really cares that much, we’re British we don’t talk salary as routine conversation. I’ve worked in retail in the past and I’ve refused to do many things I didn’t like as believe or it not managers in retail just like managers in transport know nothing. I have never met a competent manager in my life who knows terms and conditions. Hell I demanded a 2 week notice period in my last retail job when it should have 6 because lower downs hold all the power. You simply cannot fire someone for not doing something if it’s not in their job description. I’ve never had my pay docked or had to make up hours for being late because of you have a reasonable excuse management just don’t care themselves. Let me ask you, would you be okay if your manager came to you and said, without any discussion, you had to do something you have never previously been asked to do, had no interest in doing and would adversely affect your life?
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Post by richard on Nov 28, 2021 23:20:51 GMT
I am sorry, but your attitude towards tube drivers is blatantly disgusting. So because they earn £50k they must do whatever TfL tells them and be submissive. What next, you would want them to be cleaning toilets with their bare hands, or how about take a punch in the face from each passenger when there is a signal failure. Tube drivers are at risk when they crew change or reach the end of the route to go to the next side or putting passengers off. I have known of them being assaulted verbally and physically, same as what has happened to bus drivers. Night work should NOT be compulsory especially if you did NOT sign up for it. Footballer do and have complained about their wage, and at times have threatened to leave to other clubs. If you think they earn to much, then why don't you go for the job yourself. I travelled to work by tube and train on the strike Friday, I could have drove but chose not to. After all, if you are willing to you would. I couldn't care less if I have this attitude, I know many members of the public feel the exact same way. I'm sure if it was well publicised how much a tube driver earns then there'd be an uprising. Also yes, if you earn 50K I'd hope you would do what your employer is paying you that sort of money for. It should never be a case where an employee takes away an effectively middle class wage and then also dictates terms to an employer who's paying them that sort of wage. It's laughable you say that tube drivers put themselves at risk when they change drivers which is probably less than 10% of their total shift time, as opposed to around 99% of the total shift time of hospital staff and retail workers. Apart from the very little time they spend changing drivers they spend pretty much the entire journey in a cab. Jobs change, if the tube drivers are refusing to adapt then you'll have to force them to adapt and if that be working through the night for 4 nights out of 365 then so be it. Again if in a retail or hospital setting you refused to follow this you'd be sacked without hesitation. It's funny that they claim it would "wreck" home/life balance. What are the rest of the night workers in other industries to them then? People who have no life? When you pay well in the thousands for your travel each year, and you see people striking for more money when their wages are 50K a year and they get free transport it just screams of total entitlement. The general public who generally earn a lot less than them have places to be and will most likely get their pay docked if they're late to work and then don't make the hours up. You are talking complete BS you don't even have clue about the occupation. Your just the average Jo public that complains all the time about tube drivers. Like I said before they don't just sit there and twiddling there fingers they are there for a safety critical job. You wouldn't want a airplane to have no pilots would you?
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Post by londonbuschannel on Nov 29, 2021 5:46:10 GMT
I am sorry, but your attitude towards tube drivers is blatantly disgusting. So because they earn £50k they must do whatever TfL tells them and be submissive. What next, you would want them to be cleaning toilets with their bare hands, or how about take a punch in the face from each passenger when there is a signal failure. Tube drivers are at risk when they crew change or reach the end of the route to go to the next side or putting passengers off. I have known of them being assaulted verbally and physically, same as what has happened to bus drivers. Night work should NOT be compulsory especially if you did NOT sign up for it. Footballer do and have complained about their wage, and at times have threatened to leave to other clubs. If you think they earn to much, then why don't you go for the job yourself. I travelled to work by tube and train on the strike Friday, I could have drove but chose not to. After all, if you are willing to you would. I couldn't care less if I have this attitude, I know many members of the public feel the exact same way. I'm sure if it was well publicised how much a tube driver earns then there'd be an uprising. Also yes, if you earn 50K I'd hope you would do what your employer is paying you that sort of money for. It should never be a case where an employee takes away an effectively middle class wage and then also dictates terms to an employer who's paying them that sort of wage. It's laughable you say that tube drivers put themselves at risk when they change drivers which is probably less than 10% of their total shift time, as opposed to around 99% of the total shift time of hospital staff and retail workers. Apart from the very little time they spend changing drivers they spend pretty much the entire journey in a cab. Jobs change, if the tube drivers are refusing to adapt then you'll have to force them to adapt and if that be working through the night for 4 nights out of 365 then so be it. Again if in a retail or hospital setting you refused to follow this you'd be sacked without hesitation. It's funny that they claim it would "wreck" home/life balance. What are the rest of the night workers in other industries to them then? People who have no life? When you pay well in the thousands for your travel each year, and you see people striking for more money when their wages are 50K a year and they get free transport it just screams of total entitlement. The general public who generally earn a lot less than them have places to be and will most likely get their pay docked if they're late to work and then don't make the hours up. You seem to be harking about how hospital and retail workers also suffer bad conditions. Rather than put tube drivers down for wanting their own good working conditions, why not advocate for the working conditions of retail and hospital workers. Your general attitude comes off as quite privileged since you seem to be prioritising your slightly delayed journey over the mistreatment of your fellow man. This issue also has nothing to do with how much drivers are paid, but yet you keep bringing it up. Regardless of pay, no one should be forced to work a night shift. Especially when there was already a group of people who WILLINGLY volunteered to do them.
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Nov 29, 2021 8:21:52 GMT
I couldn't care less if I have this attitude, I know many members of the public feel the exact same way. I'm sure if it was well publicised how much a tube driver earns then there'd be an uprising. Also yes, if you earn 50K I'd hope you would do what your employer is paying you that sort of money for. It should never be a case where an employee takes away an effectively middle class wage and then also dictates terms to an employer who's paying them that sort of wage. It's laughable you say that tube drivers put themselves at risk when they change drivers which is probably less than 10% of their total shift time, as opposed to around 99% of the total shift time of hospital staff and retail workers. Apart from the very little time they spend changing drivers they spend pretty much the entire journey in a cab. Jobs change, if the tube drivers are refusing to adapt then you'll have to force them to adapt and if that be working through the night for 4 nights out of 365 then so be it. Again if in a retail or hospital setting you refused to follow this you'd be sacked without hesitation. It's funny that they claim it would "wreck" home/life balance. What are the rest of the night workers in other industries to them then? People who have no life? When you pay well in the thousands for your travel each year, and you see people striking for more money when their wages are 50K a year and they get free transport it just screams of total entitlement. The general public who generally earn a lot less than them have places to be and will most likely get their pay docked if they're late to work and then don't make the hours up. You seem to be harking about how hospital and retail workers also suffer bad conditions. Rather than put tube drivers down for wanting their own good working conditions, why not advocate for the working conditions of retail and hospital workers. Your general attitude comes off as quite privileged since you seem to be prioritising your slightly delayed journey over the mistreatment of your fellow man. This issue also has nothing to do with how much drivers are paid, but yet you keep bringing it up. Regardless of pay, no one should be forced to work a night shift. Especially when there was already a group of people who WILLINGLY volunteered to do them. I can't do anything about an underfunded NHS can I? This isn't mistreatment that'll have adverse affects on someone's life. I don't get how I'm privileged when I'm not the one complaining about working 4 out of 365 days. That's what privileged is.
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Nov 29, 2021 8:23:02 GMT
I couldn't care less if I have this attitude, I know many members of the public feel the exact same way. I'm sure if it was well publicised how much a tube driver earns then there'd be an uprising. Also yes, if you earn 50K I'd hope you would do what your employer is paying you that sort of money for. It should never be a case where an employee takes away an effectively middle class wage and then also dictates terms to an employer who's paying them that sort of wage. It's laughable you say that tube drivers put themselves at risk when they change drivers which is probably less than 10% of their total shift time, as opposed to around 99% of the total shift time of hospital staff and retail workers. Apart from the very little time they spend changing drivers they spend pretty much the entire journey in a cab. Jobs change, if the tube drivers are refusing to adapt then you'll have to force them to adapt and if that be working through the night for 4 nights out of 365 then so be it. Again if in a retail or hospital setting you refused to follow this you'd be sacked without hesitation. It's funny that they claim it would "wreck" home/life balance. What are the rest of the night workers in other industries to them then? People who have no life? When you pay well in the thousands for your travel each year, and you see people striking for more money when their wages are 50K a year and they get free transport it just screams of total entitlement. The general public who generally earn a lot less than them have places to be and will most likely get their pay docked if they're late to work and then don't make the hours up. You are talking complete BS you don't even have clue about the occupation. Your just the average Jo public that complains all the time about tube drivers. Like I said before they don't just sit there and twiddling there fingers they are there for a safety critical job. You wouldn't want a airplane to have no pilots would you? Notably airplanes are not tube trains, tube trains around the world manage without a driver so no reason London can't.
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Nov 29, 2021 8:25:56 GMT
I couldn't care less if I have this attitude, I know many members of the public feel the exact same way. I'm sure if it was well publicised how much a tube driver earns then there'd be an uprising. Also yes, if you earn 50K I'd hope you would do what your employer is paying you that sort of money for. It should never be a case where an employee takes away an effectively middle class wage and then also dictates terms to an employer who's paying them that sort of wage. It's laughable you say that tube drivers put themselves at risk when they change drivers which is probably less than 10% of their total shift time, as opposed to around 99% of the total shift time of hospital staff and retail workers. Apart from the very little time they spend changing drivers they spend pretty much the entire journey in a cab. Jobs change, if the tube drivers are refusing to adapt then you'll have to force them to adapt and if that be working through the night for 4 nights out of 365 then so be it. Again if in a retail or hospital setting you refused to follow this you'd be sacked without hesitation. It's funny that they claim it would "wreck" home/life balance. What are the rest of the night workers in other industries to them then? People who have no life? When you pay well in the thousands for your travel each year, and you see people striking for more money when their wages are 50K a year and they get free transport it just screams of total entitlement. The general public who generally earn a lot less than them have places to be and will most likely get their pay docked if they're late to work and then don't make the hours up. Talking out your arse. Tube driver salary is well publicised every time something like a strike comes up and everyone grumbles and then forgets because no one really cares that much, we’re British we don’t talk salary as routine conversation. I’ve worked in retail in the past and I’ve refused to do many things I didn’t like as believe or it not managers in retail just like managers in transport know nothing. I have never met a competent manager in my life who knows terms and conditions. Hell I demanded a 2 week notice period in my last retail job when it should have 6 because lower downs hold all the power. You simply cannot fire someone for not doing something if it’s not in their job description. I’ve never had my pay docked or had to make up hours for being late because of you have a reasonable excuse management just don’t care themselves. Let me ask you, would you be okay if your manager came to you and said, without any discussion, you had to do something you have never previously been asked to do, had no interest in doing and would adversely affect your life? That's what happens in many workplaces, people get forced to do many things not in their job description. I'm sure at Sainsburys manning scan and shop wasn't part of the JD of employees 5 years ago, that didn't mean employees threw a fit when it was introduced and refused to work as they'd have been sacked. What adverse affect is 4 shifts out of 365 days a year?
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Post by ThinLizzy on Nov 29, 2021 10:30:07 GMT
Talking out your arse. Tube driver salary is well publicised every time something like a strike comes up and everyone grumbles and then forgets because no one really cares that much, we’re British we don’t talk salary as routine conversation. I’ve worked in retail in the past and I’ve refused to do many things I didn’t like as believe or it not managers in retail just like managers in transport know nothing. I have never met a competent manager in my life who knows terms and conditions. Hell I demanded a 2 week notice period in my last retail job when it should have 6 because lower downs hold all the power. You simply cannot fire someone for not doing something if it’s not in their job description. I’ve never had my pay docked or had to make up hours for being late because of you have a reasonable excuse management just don’t care themselves. Let me ask you, would you be okay if your manager came to you and said, without any discussion, you had to do something you have never previously been asked to do, had no interest in doing and would adversely affect your life? That's what happens in many workplaces, people get forced to do many things not in their job description. I'm sure at Sainsburys manning scan and shop wasn't part of the JD of employees 5 years ago, that didn't mean employees threw a fit when it was introduced and refused to work as they'd have been sacked. What adverse affect is 4 shifts out of 365 days a year? The problem with 4 night shifts per year is they are probably outside their contracted hours. The other issue adding night shifts to a roster is fatigue levels. Rail workers work under the rules of the Transport and General Works Act 1992, and in doing so, must ensure they are not suffering from fatigue. To work under the influence of alcohol, drugs or whilst fatigued is a criminal offence. With respect to those working in Sainsburys, working on Self Scan or Click and Collect whilst fatigued is very different to being a safety critical employee at the front of a train carrying 1000 people and drifting in and out of "alertness" The vast vast majority of people working on the rails (including me) take our responsibilities very seriously. If this had been about money I'd be less supportive, but things about terms and conditions of the workplace are really important. W It was one day. One day when 60% of the tube was running anyway. One day when people would have to go a different way.
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