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Post by stuckonthe486 on Dec 6, 2022 16:56:12 GMT
I don't recall an attempt to cut the service though the service was in flux around 2000 because of the Victoria-Charlton service for the Dome (which then got rejigged into a short-lived stopping service to Plumstead and the Gillingham trains switched to Greenwich for a bit). That said, passengers from Belvedere and Erith have always been messed around and I'm sure the rail industry would brick up Blackheath tunnel given the chance. Those buses to North Greenwich became overloaded very quickly - from Charlton, the fast Millennium Dome bus, the M1, was hugely popular at rush hour. What's not to like about a non-stop bus every five minutes? Then it was replaced with the 486, which was inadequate for years, and people started drifting back to National Rail. And the Jubilee Line Extension was very unreliable in its first couple of years. Buses from that area to North Greenwich are better these days but are inevitably slow because almost every stop they serve after Charlton station is somewhere of high demand and North Greenwich bus station can fall apart on event nights because the road design is a mess (spotted some traffic marshals the other night so maybe, finally, someone's getting to grip with it). Double-running through there isn't going to make Silvertown Tunnel services very attractive, which is why the X239 makes some sense. The design around North Greenwich is certainly nowhere near as good as it should be, but I do feel it should act as the interchange hub for onward cross river travel. I also suspect a bus south towards Grove Park from the O2 when events finish would be well used. While I don't think *everything* should serve North Greenwich, I certainly think there should be a bus from Canary Wharf to North Greenwich, whatever else is or isn't provided. Does seem a bit odd that there'll be communities in east London who can see the O2 but can't reach it by bus, despite the £2bn tunnel on their doorsteps.
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Post by vjaska on Dec 6, 2022 16:57:45 GMT
I don't recall an attempt to cut the service though the service was in flux around 2000 because of the Victoria-Charlton service for the Dome (which then got rejigged into a short-lived stopping service to Plumstead and the Gillingham trains switched to Greenwich for a bit). That said, passengers from Belvedere and Erith have always been messed around and I'm sure the rail industry would brick up Blackheath tunnel given the chance. Those buses to North Greenwich became overloaded very quickly - from Charlton, the fast Millennium Dome bus, the M1, was hugely popular at rush hour. What's not to like about a non-stop bus every five minutes? Then it was replaced with the 486, which was inadequate for years, and people started drifting back to National Rail. And the Jubilee Line Extension was very unreliable in its first couple of years. Buses from that area to North Greenwich are better these days but are inevitably slow because almost every stop they serve after Charlton station is somewhere of high demand and North Greenwich bus station can fall apart on event nights because the road design is a mess (spotted some traffic marshals the other night so maybe, finally, someone's getting to grip with it). Double-running through there isn't going to make Silvertown Tunnel services very attractive, which is why the X239 makes some sense. The design around North Greenwich is certainly nowhere near as good as it should be, but I do feel it should act as the interchange hub for onward cross river travel. I also suspect a bus south towards Grove Park from the O2 when events finish would be well used. Obviously I’m an outsider to all this but I find it rather mad that an express service is going to completely pass by two important interchanges on the way even if you have to double run to serve one or both. I also find it mad it’s serving Orchard Place which surely is better off with a local stopping service like the D3 allowing the X239 to be even more direct. The X239 seems to go against any other express route I’ve seen or used both in and out of London, absolutely baffling IMO
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Post by WH241 on Dec 6, 2022 17:47:04 GMT
The design around North Greenwich is certainly nowhere near as good as it should be, but I do feel it should act as the interchange hub for onward cross river travel. I also suspect a bus south towards Grove Park from the O2 when events finish would be well used. Obviously I’m an outsider to all this but I find it rather mad that an express service is going to completely pass by two important interchanges on the way even if you have to double run to serve one or both. I also find it mad it’s serving Orchard Place which surely is better off with a local stopping service like the D3 allowing the X239 to be even more direct. The X239 seems to go against any other express route I’ve seen or used both in and out of London, absolutely baffling IMO I really do think it should serve such a major interchange like Canning Town but the issue is it would then hit congestion on East India Dock Road / A13 as it heads towards Leamouth. The other option would be a double run to Canning Town station then via the Lower Lea crossing but that would add more time to journeys. The tunnel is located in such a awkward position and as soon as there are issues in either the new tunnel or Blackwall the whole area will be gridlocked even worse than now.
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Post by enviroPB on Dec 6, 2022 21:25:23 GMT
Finally had a read on the recent proposals. Referencing the South Newham development papers, we have ended up with a watered down set of proposals:
- The DCO (development consent order) minimum has been adopted, some 15bph less than what was promised. I've no idea why the 108's PVR is included in the DCO
- TfL have had some intention of imposing these changes in the east London area for a long time but there was no coordination; e.g. the 262 could've been truncated along with the 129 extension
- Original documentation suggested a route from the north to go to North Greenwich (104), from the south to Canning Town or LCY (129) as well as a 'through route'
- Comments on calculations for peak demand sound awfully similar to those TfL used for justifying leaving just the 366 in the Gallions Reach and East Beckton areas, and there was no rowback on that...
I don't see the point of TfL having these mini consultations; on the X239 around Wood Wharf for example, it is basically a consultation about parking on Yabsley Street. Might as well go forward with that routing and make an easy turning point in the process, and ignore the double run at Leamouth. It's clear to me someone at TfL looked at the N550 routing and thought let's mirror that for the X239. The 108's one mostly affects MG changeovers but will be beneficial for the vast majority of passengers. At least the "express route" will take some demand off the 108 in Blackheath, and if high capacity single deckers weren't the allocation for the route then I would have voiced concerns by the frequency deduction.
The 129 routing north of the river would help locals massively by linking residents to schools and health centres in Britannia Village and Tollgate Road more efficiently, but there's a strong argument that the 129 likely isn't the best route to provide that. Call me a prude but data modeled on responses from residents 6 years ago will not be reflective of the yuppies soon to flood the Docklands area. The 239 should [already] be a normal Bromley South- North Greenwich route but the Westferry Circus stand has already been made out months ago so no going back. The 129 looks great but not really needed past Beckton bus station.
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Post by evergreenadam on Dec 6, 2022 22:49:53 GMT
The X239 should start in Bromley, and it should serve North Greenwich on the way. A similar express route serving Eltham and Bexleyheath would be nice as well. Whilst I like the idea of starting the X239 in Bromley, this would seriously over-bus Bromley to Grove Park unless there were also drastic cuts to the 126 and 261. I can't agree with the X239 being routed via North Greenwich (or Canning Town for that matter) as it is designed to provide fast direct journeys - other routes already link those interchanges. I do wonder though why the 202 has never been extended to North Greenwich. I don't think there are the resources to add another route from Bexleyheath via Eltham, but could 132 be rerouted to Canary Wharf, or is the link to North Greenwich too well established now to break it? Not everyone will be going to Canary Wharf, but those that are can still continue to use the Jubilee Line. I’ve also often thought the 202 should have been extended to North Greenwich but I guess the bus station is full.
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Post by evergreenadam on Dec 6, 2022 22:52:42 GMT
The X239 should start in Bromley, and it should serve North Greenwich on the way. A similar express route serving Eltham and Bexleyheath would be nice as well. But if the point of the route is to serve Canary Wharf commuters/shoppers, why mess around double-running at North Greenwich? There's already a possibility it might do another double-run at Orchard Place. The Wharf will be the main traffic objective, not the O2. If you have a run to North Greenwich, you've also got the question of how much of the Greenwich Peninsula to serve - do you have it going to Ikea? If we take TfL/Khan at face value about building a cross-river bus network (yeah, I know you may need to suspend disbelief for a second) then it has to be that, rather than one that faffs around at North Greenwich, which struggles to cope with what it's got (and its planned replacement may not be much better). Forgive me for going back many years, but Bromley-by-Bow station was a popular destination from Blackheath and Greenwich on the 108 until it was rerouted via the Dome's building site in 1998. It's those sorts of connections that need to be built up if they're serious about building any proper cross-river network. (For what it's worth I'd run it from Bromley but allow it to serve Westcombe Hill before going fast on the A102. It'd be extremely successful.) People from south of the river were using the 108 to get to the District Line?
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Post by WH241 on Dec 7, 2022 9:18:30 GMT
But if the point of the route is to serve Canary Wharf commuters/shoppers, why mess around double-running at North Greenwich? There's already a possibility it might do another double-run at Orchard Place. The Wharf will be the main traffic objective, not the O2. If you have a run to North Greenwich, you've also got the question of how much of the Greenwich Peninsula to serve - do you have it going to Ikea? If we take TfL/Khan at face value about building a cross-river bus network (yeah, I know you may need to suspend disbelief for a second) then it has to be that, rather than one that faffs around at North Greenwich, which struggles to cope with what it's got (and its planned replacement may not be much better). Forgive me for going back many years, but Bromley-by-Bow station was a popular destination from Blackheath and Greenwich on the 108 until it was rerouted via the Dome's building site in 1998. It's those sorts of connections that need to be built up if they're serious about building any proper cross-river network. (For what it's worth I'd run it from Bromley but allow it to serve Westcombe Hill before going fast on the A102. It'd be extremely successful.) People from south of the river were using the 108 to get to the District Line? I assume it was a way for passengers to connect to the Underground before the Jubilee line was extended in 1999.
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Post by busman on Dec 7, 2022 10:11:40 GMT
The design around North Greenwich is certainly nowhere near as good as it should be, but I do feel it should act as the interchange hub for onward cross river travel. I also suspect a bus south towards Grove Park from the O2 when events finish would be well used. Obviously I’m an outsider to all this but I find it rather mad that an express service is going to completely pass by two important interchanges on the way even if you have to double run to serve one or both. I also find it mad it’s serving Orchard Place which surely is better off with a local stopping service like the D3 allowing the X239 to be even more direct. The X239 seems to go against any other express route I’ve seen or used both in and out of London, absolutely baffling IMO Destinations south of the O2 are well served from North Greenwich. The x239 skipping North Greenwich really isn’t that big a deal. It actually provides a genuine alternative to the Jubilee Line to Canary Wharf for commuters and leisure travellers from Shooters Hill, Blackheath and beyond. Not sure how often it cam be said that bus travel offers an attractive alternative to tube travel. Having the x239 stop anywhere in between negates the cross river benefits it brings. I would argue for an alternative all-stops cross river through route that connects local areas either side of the river with destinations deeper north and south, instead of slowing down the x239 to do that job.
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Post by ronnie on Dec 7, 2022 10:44:55 GMT
Obviously I’m an outsider to all this but I find it rather mad that an express service is going to completely pass by two important interchanges on the way even if you have to double run to serve one or both. I also find it mad it’s serving Orchard Place which surely is better off with a local stopping service like the D3 allowing the X239 to be even more direct. The X239 seems to go against any other express route I’ve seen or used both in and out of London, absolutely baffling IMO Destinations south of the O2 are well served from North Greenwich. There x239 skipping North Greenwich really isn’t that big a deal. It actually provides a genuine alternative to the Jubilee Line to Canary Wharf for commuters and leisure travellers from Shooters Hill, Blackheath and beyond. Not sure how often it cam be said that bus travel offers an attractive alternative to tube travel. Having the x239 stop anywhere in between negates the cross river benefits it brings. I would argue for an alternative all-stops cross river through route that connects local areas either side of the river with destinations deeper north and south, instead of slowing down the x239 to do that job. Yes I get the logic of why the X239 is planned to be the way it is but it will be a tough one to operate in the morning peaks The other all-stops route is definitely needed
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Post by stuckonthe486 on Dec 7, 2022 11:24:48 GMT
But if the point of the route is to serve Canary Wharf commuters/shoppers, why mess around double-running at North Greenwich? There's already a possibility it might do another double-run at Orchard Place. The Wharf will be the main traffic objective, not the O2. If you have a run to North Greenwich, you've also got the question of how much of the Greenwich Peninsula to serve - do you have it going to Ikea? If we take TfL/Khan at face value about building a cross-river bus network (yeah, I know you may need to suspend disbelief for a second) then it has to be that, rather than one that faffs around at North Greenwich, which struggles to cope with what it's got (and its planned replacement may not be much better). Forgive me for going back many years, but Bromley-by-Bow station was a popular destination from Blackheath and Greenwich on the 108 until it was rerouted via the Dome's building site in 1998. It's those sorts of connections that need to be built up if they're serious about building any proper cross-river network. (For what it's worth I'd run it from Bromley but allow it to serve Westcombe Hill before going fast on the A102. It'd be extremely successful.) People from south of the river were using the 108 to get to the District Line? I used to live very close to Westcombe Park station and used the 108 to reach the Hammersmith & City and Central lines - used to commute to various places around there during the 90s (obviously changing at Mile End for the Central if needed), and there was little difference time-wise between using the train to London Bridge or wherever and changing. Obviously traffic-dependent - if the roads were gridlocked I'd get the train. And if the roads were clear and the trains were up the spout, I'd get the bus. Would sometimes wait at the bottom of the approach to Westcombe Park station to see what came first! With no North Greenwich, no Greenwich Peninsula retail strip, the 108 ran along Woolwich Road, Blackwall Lane, then did a left towards the tunnel, and then straight up the northern A102 (as it was) to Bromley-by-Bow. Took about 15-20 minutes from Westcombe Park to Bromley-by-Bow. It was extremely handy, especially in times of rail distruption. I live fairly close by now and if that connection still existed I'd probably still use it from time to time.
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Post by northlondon83 on Dec 8, 2022 8:21:30 GMT
I would extend the 202 from Blackheath to North Greenwich, then withdraw between Lee and Crystal Palace, and extend it to Bromley North, on top of the X239 (to be renumbered x202 in this case)
I would then introduce a new route 239 operating on the 202 lor between Crystal Palace and Lee Green, then extended to Lewisham, to partly replace the 202
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Post by cl54 on Dec 8, 2022 9:37:16 GMT
Having thought about this - seems quite underwhelming and disappointing which is typical of most things in the mayor’s tenure. Overpromise, under deliver, only the Lycra louts are happy From 37.5bph to 15bph - emerging market politicians skim less than this guy Regarding the changes: - 108: minor change, nothing worth writing home about. In case people havnt picked up this will drop in frequency to every 12 min (from current 10) which I think does a massive disservice to the royal standard / westCombe park corridor (and beyond) given the disruptions this route typically suffers. Morning commute just got messier - 129: running this every 8 min is going to be a monumental challenge given the very empty cycle lane which has killed off. I expect severe bunching on this. Wasn’t this cut back from 10 min to 12 min a few weeks back? Don’t think demand has increased in the interim and at best an every 10ml min frequency seems justified (which I believe will happen sooner rather than later as part of a sneaky cutback). Very imaginative route to get it to, where else, beckton. At least it’s not going to East Ham - X239: another missed opportunity. I overall love the concept and have some sympathies as to the route (more below) but goes by the wrong route. At the south it should terminate at Bromley south (where the 126 stands currently). I struggle to see how it will work reliably in the morning peaks at every 8 min without severe bunching - has anyone stood at Blackheath to see the traffic? It’s normally bumper to bumper the entire time. Not to forget the 132 is on diversion through 335 LOR half the time in the morning so inevitably this will meet the same fate. The lack of interchange at North Greenwich is very disappointing (selfishly I would have jumped on to this) - my guess is that tfl didn’t want to cannibalise riders from the 108/335 onto this as else people in that corridor will skip at 12 min 108 / 12-15 min 335 to crowd onto a 8-min X239! So no new links frankly. At least an extended 304/241/330 to North Greenwich / Charlton / Eltham would have created some new popular links but hey who cares. I am also fully sure that frequencies will be watered down stealthily to every 10 min at the onset! Trains at North Greenwich are already very crowded. The number of housing units under construction nearby at the moment will add pressure. I can see why the X239 will bypass it. The bus station at North Greenwich is beyond full at the moment. At busy times buses are now standing on the entry road. If the above station development progresses a new bus station site is proposed. Maybe this could be larger. Charlton has a very small turning point at the station. TfL have proposed selling this for housing. Can't see anywhere else where buses could stand with facilities for drivers. Eltham station might be able to accommodate more buses but it is before the High Street. The alternative roads used at the moment are pretty crowded.
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Post by stuckonthe486 on Dec 8, 2022 14:49:54 GMT
Charlton has a very small turning point at the station. TfL have proposed selling this for housing. Can't see anywhere else where buses could stand with facilities for drivers. Have they? I don't think it's theirs to sell. Greenwich Council commissioned something a few years ago that suggested housing could be built there, but it went nowhere.
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Post by route53 on Dec 11, 2022 15:55:03 GMT
People from south of the river were using the 108 to get to the District Line? I used to live very close to Westcombe Park station and used the 108 to reach the Hammersmith & City and Central lines - used to commute to various places around there during the 90s (obviously changing at Mile End for the Central if needed), and there was little difference time-wise between using the train to London Bridge or wherever and changing. Obviously traffic-dependent - if the roads were gridlocked I'd get the train. And if the roads were clear and the trains were up the spout, I'd get the bus. Would sometimes wait at the bottom of the approach to Westcombe Park station to see what came first! With no North Greenwich, no Greenwich Peninsula retail strip, the 108 ran along Woolwich Road, Blackwall Lane, then did a left towards the tunnel, and then straight up the northern A102 (as it was) to Bromley-by-Bow. Took about 15-20 minutes from Westcombe Park to Bromley-by-Bow. It was extremely handy, especially in times of rail distruption. I live fairly close by now and if that connection still existed I'd probably still use it from time to time. Very easy to forget that the 108 used to run along Woolwich Road pre North Greenwich/Peninsula shops. I could see why many from Blackheath and Greenwich would head to Bromley by Bow pre Jubilee/DLR.
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Post by wirewiper on Dec 11, 2022 16:36:54 GMT
I used to live very close to Westcombe Park station and used the 108 to reach the Hammersmith & City and Central lines - used to commute to various places around there during the 90s (obviously changing at Mile End for the Central if needed), and there was little difference time-wise between using the train to London Bridge or wherever and changing. Obviously traffic-dependent - if the roads were gridlocked I'd get the train. And if the roads were clear and the trains were up the spout, I'd get the bus. Would sometimes wait at the bottom of the approach to Westcombe Park station to see what came first! With no North Greenwich, no Greenwich Peninsula retail strip, the 108 ran along Woolwich Road, Blackwall Lane, then did a left towards the tunnel, and then straight up the northern A102 (as it was) to Bromley-by-Bow. Took about 15-20 minutes from Westcombe Park to Bromley-by-Bow. It was extremely handy, especially in times of rail distruption. I live fairly close by now and if that connection still existed I'd probably still use it from time to time. Very easy to forget that the 108 used to run along Woolwich Road pre North Greenwich/Peninsula shops. I could see why many from Blackheath and Greenwich would head to Bromley by Bow pre Jubilee/DLR. It's also easy to forget that the 108 used to run to Eltham rather than Blackheath Village and Lewisham. Funny, of all the fantasy route ideas that appear on this forum it never seems to be suggested that Eltham needs to be linked to Stratford!
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