|
Post by route53 on Dec 4, 2022 18:28:08 GMT
Makes no sense to assume that those from Woolwich and Eltham wouldn’t benefit from cross river bus links.
The 335 and 472 being extended across the river makes far more sense than extending the 129 to Beckton (a journey that can be made via the DLR) a 129 extension would have only made sense had TfL gone ahead with their original plans to reroute the 129 to Peckham while the 177 replaces the 180 to Lewisham.
The 108 is only having a minor change and will still run through Blackwall Tunnel, when really this route needs double deckers and for that to happen it needs to be rerouted via Silvertown tunnel.
The X239 (which should be the X108) should be the route that goes through Blackwall for a faster run to Canary Wharf and should run from Bromley.
The 472 could be extended from North Greenwich to Canary Wharf or Limehouse, while the 335 could have been extended to Beckton (instead of the 129)
Greenwich gets very little out of this transport wise, but as ever using the Liz line as a justification as to why those from Woolwich, Eltham and surrounding areas is starting to become rather tiresome, there are multiple bus and tube cross river links in West London, yet SE London doesn’t get that same look in yet again.
|
|
|
Post by route53 on Dec 4, 2022 18:32:05 GMT
If those Greenwich Labour councillors have an iota of shame (which considering they are Labour they don’t) they should all resign This was touted as a grand scheme to increase usage of public transport. Despite it being a bonkers scheme in the first place owing to using the same approach as the Blackwall tunnel (I await the increased traffic chaos!) Instead of a promised 37.5bph (so a bus in less than 2 min) we now get a heavily watered down 20bph with only 2 routes being created. The 108 is being touted in such a fashion as if it’s a new route being introduced. The X239 will serve all of 2 stops in the entire borough and the 129 extension isn’t exactly great. To add insult to injury both tunnels will now be tolled! Labour councils won’t dare introduce tolls in west London but east London is easy money Sorry I'm confused - Greenwich Council pressed for the tunnel based on better buses so how is it they are being blamed for this when it's clearly TfL who have watered down their own plans by chopping out roughly 17bph and the X239 proposal being laughable at best given an express route is meant to serve the busiest and important stops yet misses both North Greenwich & Canning Town bus stations. Now if Greenwich decided this new proposal is great, then by all mean, your criticism makes perfect sense but until we know that for sure, I don't think they should be criticised for such a thing but maybe I'm probably missing something. This has nothing to do with party politics - it's TfL's fault here. Also, can we stop with the area wars - bad enough that Burnham does it with north vs south without Londoner vs Londoner In a way I can understand the X239 not stopping at North Greenwich or Canning Town, this is I suppose TfL’s way of easing the load off the Jubilee line for cross river travel.
|
|
|
Post by ronnie on Dec 4, 2022 21:27:55 GMT
If those Greenwich Labour councillors have an iota of shame (which considering they are Labour they don’t) they should all resign This was touted as a grand scheme to increase usage of public transport. Despite it being a bonkers scheme in the first place owing to using the same approach as the Blackwall tunnel (I await the increased traffic chaos!) Instead of a promised 37.5bph (so a bus in less than 2 min) we now get a heavily watered down 20bph with only 2 routes being created. The 108 is being touted in such a fashion as if it’s a new route being introduced. The X239 will serve all of 2 stops in the entire borough and the 129 extension isn’t exactly great. To add insult to injury both tunnels will now be tolled! Labour councils won’t dare introduce tolls in west London but east London is easy money Sorry I'm confused - Greenwich Council pressed for the tunnel based on better buses so how is it they are being blamed for this when it's clearly TfL who have watered down their own plans by chopping out roughly 17bph and the X239 proposal being laughable at best given an express route is meant to serve the busiest and important stops yet misses both North Greenwich & Canning Town bus stations. Now if Greenwich decided this new proposal is great, then by all mean, your criticism makes perfect sense but until we know that for sure, I don't think they should be criticised for such a thing but maybe I'm probably missing something. This has nothing to do with party politics - it's TfL's fault here. Also, can we stop with the area wars - bad enough that Burnham does it with north vs south without Londoner vs Londoner Well there was fairly significant local opposition to the tunnel (similar to the LTNs) but the council went roughshod over people. They have (vegan) egg on their faces now, they are in for some rough questioning. Pity the elections are sometime away
|
|
|
Post by evergreenadam on Dec 5, 2022 9:00:06 GMT
Makes no sense to assume that those from Woolwich and Eltham wouldn’t benefit from cross river bus links. The 335 and 472 being extended across the river makes far more sense than extending the 129 to Beckton (a journey that can be made via the DLR) a 129 extension would have only made sense had TfL gone ahead with their original plans to reroute the 129 to Peckham while the 177 replaces the 180 to Lewisham. The 108 is only having a minor change and will still run through Blackwall Tunnel, when really this route needs double deckers and for that to happen it needs to be rerouted via Silvertown tunnel. The X239 (which should be the X108) should be the route that goes through Blackwall for a faster run to Canary Wharf and should run from Bromley. The 472 could be extended from North Greenwich to Canary Wharf or Limehouse, while the 335 could have been extended to Beckton (instead of the 129) Greenwich gets very little out of this transport wise, but as ever using the Liz line as a justification as to why those from Woolwich, Eltham and surrounding areas is starting to become rather tiresome, there are multiple bus and tube cross river links in West London, yet SE London doesn’t get that same look in yet again. The economics of public transport provision in south east London is getting very complicated and raises lots of controversial issues. First it was abstraction from Southeastern train services as a result of the Jubilee line at North Greenwich - which required extra expenditure on feeder bus routes. Then it was abstraction from Southeastern as a result of Crossrail at Woolwich and Abbey Wood, again requiring expenditure on feeder bus routes. Now it’s abstraction from Southeastern and the DLR via Lewisham to send people via a bus route to Canary Wharf. I’ve no idea how the journey times would compare for Grove Park or Blackheath to Canary Wharf journeys at peak times, but the potential for delays from traffic congestion must be enormous and I would love to know what the subsidy per bus passenger mile on that route will be, especially given the highly peaked nature of any demand. I don’t know what happens if the bus routes through the Silvertown Tunnel experience poor levels of demand, will the conditions of the permission require them to run in perpetuity anyway? Now Southeastern are proposing service cuts without consultation citing falling demand for their services as a result of Crossrail and post pandemic working from home, leaving areas furthest from the Thames with worse public transport options than before. Somehow I doubt that negative impact was taken into account as it’s not TfL’s revenue that is being affected. Robbing Peter to pay Paul?
|
|
|
Post by ronnie on Dec 5, 2022 10:04:36 GMT
Makes no sense to assume that those from Woolwich and Eltham wouldn’t benefit from cross river bus links. The 335 and 472 being extended across the river makes far more sense than extending the 129 to Beckton (a journey that can be made via the DLR) a 129 extension would have only made sense had TfL gone ahead with their original plans to reroute the 129 to Peckham while the 177 replaces the 180 to Lewisham. The 108 is only having a minor change and will still run through Blackwall Tunnel, when really this route needs double deckers and for that to happen it needs to be rerouted via Silvertown tunnel. The X239 (which should be the X108) should be the route that goes through Blackwall for a faster run to Canary Wharf and should run from Bromley. The 472 could be extended from North Greenwich to Canary Wharf or Limehouse, while the 335 could have been extended to Beckton (instead of the 129) Greenwich gets very little out of this transport wise, but as ever using the Liz line as a justification as to why those from Woolwich, Eltham and surrounding areas is starting to become rather tiresome, there are multiple bus and tube cross river links in West London, yet SE London doesn’t get that same look in yet again. The economics of public transport provision in south east London is getting very complicated and raises lots of controversial issues. First it was abstraction from Southeastern train services as a result of the Jubilee line at North Greenwich - which required extra expenditure on feeder bus routes. Then it was abstraction from Southeastern as a result of Crossrail at Woolwich and Abbey Wood, again requiring expenditure on feeder bus routes. Now it’s abstraction from Southeastern and the DLR via Lewisham to send people via a bus route to Canary Wharf. I’ve no idea how the journey times would compare for Grove Park or Blackheath to Canary Wharf journeys at peak times, but the potential for delays from traffic congestion must be enormous and I would love to know what the subsidy per bus passenger mile on that route will be, especially given the highly peaked nature of any demand. I don’t know what happens if the bus routes through the Silvertown Tunnel experience poor levels of demand, will the conditions of the permission require them to run in perpetuity anyway? Now Southeastern are proposing service cuts without consultation citing falling demand for their services as a result of Crossrail and post pandemic working from home, leaving areas furthest from the Thames with worse public transport options than before. Somehow I doubt that negative impact was taken into account as it’s not TfL’s revenue that is being affected. Robbing Peter to pay Paul? I struggle to see how the X239 will run reliably considering it’s non-stop nature between sun-in-the-sands and Canary Wharf (selfishly I can walk to both the stops it has in the borough of Greenwich). The 132 is on diversion more than half the time in the morning peaks (and nowadays on the weekend as well) using the 335 LOR. I know as I use the 132/335/108 to get to North Greenwich - the A102 is clogged like crazy. I once made the mistake of using the car and A102 in the morning peak to get to North Greenwich (was off work that day and had some stuff to pick up - took me 20+ min to angerstein roundabout!) I thus expect the X239 to be on diversion half the time in the morning peaks using the 108/335 LOR - thus missing the only 2 stops in the entire borough it’s meant to serve. It’s an express route so not sure how stopping arrangements will be plus how do you tell passengers at the Shooter’s Hill road / kidbrooke park road stop that their bus May never come? The cynic in me is of the view that 20bph may be introduced at the beginning only to have the frequency cuts by stealth unleashed shortly post. Don’t see this as being more than 5-6bph in the long run for either the x239 or 129 Frankly if most London boroughs weren’t so Labour friendly one would get some decent changes. We ended up being taken for a (delayed) ride all the time!
|
|
|
Post by vjaska on Dec 5, 2022 11:58:33 GMT
Sorry I'm confused - Greenwich Council pressed for the tunnel based on better buses so how is it they are being blamed for this when it's clearly TfL who have watered down their own plans by chopping out roughly 17bph and the X239 proposal being laughable at best given an express route is meant to serve the busiest and important stops yet misses both North Greenwich & Canning Town bus stations. Now if Greenwich decided this new proposal is great, then by all mean, your criticism makes perfect sense but until we know that for sure, I don't think they should be criticised for such a thing but maybe I'm probably missing something. This has nothing to do with party politics - it's TfL's fault here. Also, can we stop with the area wars - bad enough that Burnham does it with north vs south without Londoner vs Londoner Well there was fairly significant local opposition to the tunnel (similar to the LTNs) but the council went roughshod over people. They have (vegan) egg on their faces now, they are in for some rough questioning. Pity the elections are sometime away There was significant opposition in my own borough including from myself however, it's a completely separate issue to the tunnel The economics of public transport provision in south east London is getting very complicated and raises lots of controversial issues. First it was abstraction from Southeastern train services as a result of the Jubilee line at North Greenwich - which required extra expenditure on feeder bus routes. Then it was abstraction from Southeastern as a result of Crossrail at Woolwich and Abbey Wood, again requiring expenditure on feeder bus routes. Now it’s abstraction from Southeastern and the DLR via Lewisham to send people via a bus route to Canary Wharf. I’ve no idea how the journey times would compare for Grove Park or Blackheath to Canary Wharf journeys at peak times, but the potential for delays from traffic congestion must be enormous and I would love to know what the subsidy per bus passenger mile on that route will be, especially given the highly peaked nature of any demand. I don’t know what happens if the bus routes through the Silvertown Tunnel experience poor levels of demand, will the conditions of the permission require them to run in perpetuity anyway? Now Southeastern are proposing service cuts without consultation citing falling demand for their services as a result of Crossrail and post pandemic working from home, leaving areas furthest from the Thames with worse public transport options than before. Somehow I doubt that negative impact was taken into account as it’s not TfL’s revenue that is being affected. Robbing Peter to pay Paul? Frankly if most London boroughs weren’t so Labour friendly one would get some decent changes. We ended up being taken for a (delayed) ride all the time! Again, this really has nothing to do with it and there is absolutely no guarantee you would get decent changes if your borough was less Labour friendly. Sometimes, the grass isn't greener on the other side.
|
|
|
Post by stuckonthe486 on Dec 5, 2022 15:28:05 GMT
|
|
|
Post by route53 on Dec 6, 2022 12:45:34 GMT
Makes no sense to assume that those from Woolwich and Eltham wouldn’t benefit from cross river bus links. The 335 and 472 being extended across the river makes far more sense than extending the 129 to Beckton (a journey that can be made via the DLR) a 129 extension would have only made sense had TfL gone ahead with their original plans to reroute the 129 to Peckham while the 177 replaces the 180 to Lewisham. The 108 is only having a minor change and will still run through Blackwall Tunnel, when really this route needs double deckers and for that to happen it needs to be rerouted via Silvertown tunnel. The X239 (which should be the X108) should be the route that goes through Blackwall for a faster run to Canary Wharf and should run from Bromley. The 472 could be extended from North Greenwich to Canary Wharf or Limehouse, while the 335 could have been extended to Beckton (instead of the 129) Greenwich gets very little out of this transport wise, but as ever using the Liz line as a justification as to why those from Woolwich, Eltham and surrounding areas is starting to become rather tiresome, there are multiple bus and tube cross river links in West London, yet SE London doesn’t get that same look in yet again. The economics of public transport provision in south east London is getting very complicated and raises lots of controversial issues. First it was abstraction from Southeastern train services as a result of the Jubilee line at North Greenwich - which required extra expenditure on feeder bus routes. Then it was abstraction from Southeastern as a result of Crossrail at Woolwich and Abbey Wood, again requiring expenditure on feeder bus routes. Now it’s abstraction from Southeastern and the DLR via Lewisham to send people via a bus route to Canary Wharf. I’ve no idea how the journey times would compare for Grove Park or Blackheath to Canary Wharf journeys at peak times, but the potential for delays from traffic congestion must be enormous and I would love to know what the subsidy per bus passenger mile on that route will be, especially given the highly peaked nature of any demand. I don’t know what happens if the bus routes through the Silvertown Tunnel experience poor levels of demand, will the conditions of the permission require them to run in perpetuity anyway? Now Southeastern are proposing service cuts without consultation citing falling demand for their services as a result of Crossrail and post pandemic working from home, leaving areas furthest from the Thames with worse public transport options than before. Somehow I doubt that negative impact was taken into account as it’s not TfL’s revenue that is being affected. Robbing Peter to pay Paul? Spot on all accounts. I recall they tried to cut the level of trains on the Woolwich line around the time the Jubilee line was extended to North Greenwich and Stratford, they were unsuccessful then, because people switched back to the Woolwich line after a few months, and now with the latest cuts, it’s as if South East London can never get the multiple links other parts of London has, no one would dare reduce the Central and Jubilee lines between Stratford and the West End just because there’s the Elizabeth line there now.
|
|
|
Post by stuckonthe486 on Dec 6, 2022 13:38:44 GMT
I recall they tried to cut the level of trains on the Woolwich line around the time the Jubilee line was extended to North Greenwich and Stratford, they were unsuccessful then, because people switched back to the Woolwich line after a few months, and now with the latest cuts, it’s as if South East London can never get the multiple links other parts of London has, no one would dare reduce the Central and Jubilee lines between Stratford and the West End just because there’s the Elizabeth line there now. I don't recall an attempt to cut the service though the service was in flux around 2000 because of the Victoria-Charlton service for the Dome (which then got rejigged into a short-lived stopping service to Plumstead and the Gillingham trains switched to Greenwich for a bit). That said, passengers from Belvedere and Erith have always been messed around and I'm sure the rail industry would brick up Blackheath tunnel given the chance. Those buses to North Greenwich became overloaded very quickly - from Charlton, the fast Millennium Dome bus, the M1, was hugely popular at rush hour. What's not to like about a non-stop bus every five minutes? Then it was replaced with the 486, which was inadequate for years, and people started drifting back to National Rail. And the Jubilee Line Extension was very unreliable in its first couple of years. Buses from that area to North Greenwich are better these days but are inevitably slow because almost every stop they serve after Charlton station is somewhere of high demand and North Greenwich bus station can fall apart on event nights because the road design is a mess (spotted some traffic marshals the other night so maybe, finally, someone's getting to grip with it). Double-running through there isn't going to make Silvertown Tunnel services very attractive, which is why the X239 makes some sense.
|
|
|
Post by Dillon95 on Dec 6, 2022 13:43:21 GMT
The X239 should start in Bromley, and it should serve North Greenwich on the way. A similar express route serving Eltham and Bexleyheath would be nice as well.
|
|
|
Post by stuckonthe486 on Dec 6, 2022 13:57:39 GMT
The X239 should start in Bromley, and it should serve North Greenwich on the way. A similar express route serving Eltham and Bexleyheath would be nice as well. But if the point of the route is to serve Canary Wharf commuters/shoppers, why mess around double-running at North Greenwich? There's already a possibility it might do another double-run at Orchard Place. The Wharf will be the main traffic objective, not the O2. If you have a run to North Greenwich, you've also got the question of how much of the Greenwich Peninsula to serve - do you have it going to Ikea? If we take TfL/Khan at face value about building a cross-river bus network (yeah, I know you may need to suspend disbelief for a second) then it has to be that, rather than one that faffs around at North Greenwich, which struggles to cope with what it's got (and its planned replacement may not be much better). Forgive me for going back many years, but Bromley-by-Bow station was a popular destination from Blackheath and Greenwich on the 108 until it was rerouted via the Dome's building site in 1998. It's those sorts of connections that need to be built up if they're serious about building any proper cross-river network. (For what it's worth I'd run it from Bromley but allow it to serve Westcombe Hill before going fast on the A102. It'd be extremely successful.)
|
|
|
Post by wirewiper on Dec 6, 2022 14:02:07 GMT
The X239 should start in Bromley, and it should serve North Greenwich on the way. A similar express route serving Eltham and Bexleyheath would be nice as well. Whilst I like the idea of starting the X239 in Bromley, this would seriously over-bus Bromley to Grove Park unless there were also drastic cuts to the 126 and 261. I can't agree with the X239 being routed via North Greenwich (or Canning Town for that matter) as it is designed to provide fast direct journeys - other routes already link those interchanges. I do wonder though why the 202 has never been extended to North Greenwich. I don't think there are the resources to add another route from Bexleyheath via Eltham, but could 132 be rerouted to Canary Wharf, or is the link to North Greenwich too well established now to break it? Not everyone will be going to Canary Wharf, but those that are can still continue to use the Jubilee Line.
|
|
|
Post by stuckonthe486 on Dec 6, 2022 14:08:56 GMT
The X239 should start in Bromley, and it should serve North Greenwich on the way. A similar express route serving Eltham and Bexleyheath would be nice as well. Whilst I like the idea of starting the X239 in Bromley, this would seriously over-bus Bromley to Grove Park unless there were also drastic cuts to the 126 and 261. I can't agree with the X239 being routed via North Greenwich (or Canning Town for that matter) as it is designed to provide fast direct journeys - other routes already link those interchanges. I do wonder though why the 202 has never been extended to North Greenwich. I've been caught in loads of long queues outside Grove Park station for buses to Bromley - I think it'd do okay. Not sure how long an end-to-end trip would take, but for CW commuters from Bromley North, one bus ride might be more attractive (and would certainly be cheaper) than two changes of train. Bromley-Blackheath would also be a really popular connection.
|
|
|
Post by greenboy on Dec 6, 2022 15:54:14 GMT
The X239 should start in Bromley, and it should serve North Greenwich on the way. A similar express route serving Eltham and Bexleyheath would be nice as well. Whilst I like the idea of starting the X239 in Bromley, this would seriously over-bus Bromley to Grove Park unless there were also drastic cuts to the 126 and 261. I can't agree with the X239 being routed via North Greenwich (or Canning Town for that matter) as it is designed to provide fast direct journeys - other routes already link those interchanges. I do wonder though why the 202 has never been extended to North Greenwich. I don't think there are the resources to add another route from Bexleyheath via Eltham, but could 132 be rerouted to Canary Wharf, or is the link to North Greenwich too well established now to break it? Not everyone will be going to Canary Wharf, but those that are can still continue to use the Jubilee Line. The X239 could possibly be extended non stop to Bromley, useful rail connection at Bromley South, but I agree that there's no need for it to serve North Greenwich or Canning Town.
|
|
|
Post by danorak on Dec 6, 2022 16:31:56 GMT
I recall they tried to cut the level of trains on the Woolwich line around the time the Jubilee line was extended to North Greenwich and Stratford, they were unsuccessful then, because people switched back to the Woolwich line after a few months, and now with the latest cuts, it’s as if South East London can never get the multiple links other parts of London has, no one would dare reduce the Central and Jubilee lines between Stratford and the West End just because there’s the Elizabeth line there now. I don't recall an attempt to cut the service though the service was in flux around 2000 because of the Victoria-Charlton service for the Dome (which then got rejigged into a short-lived stopping service to Plumstead and the Gillingham trains switched to Greenwich for a bit). That said, passengers from Belvedere and Erith have always been messed around and I'm sure the rail industry would brick up Blackheath tunnel given the chance. Those buses to North Greenwich became overloaded very quickly - from Charlton, the fast Millennium Dome bus, the M1, was hugely popular at rush hour. What's not to like about a non-stop bus every five minutes? Then it was replaced with the 486, which was inadequate for years, and people started drifting back to National Rail. And the Jubilee Line Extension was very unreliable in its first couple of years. Buses from that area to North Greenwich are better these days but are inevitably slow because almost every stop they serve after Charlton station is somewhere of high demand and North Greenwich bus station can fall apart on event nights because the road design is a mess (spotted some traffic marshals the other night so maybe, finally, someone's getting to grip with it). Double-running through there isn't going to make Silvertown Tunnel services very attractive, which is why the X239 makes some sense. The design around North Greenwich is certainly nowhere near as good as it should be, but I do feel it should act as the interchange hub for onward cross river travel. I also suspect a bus south towards Grove Park from the O2 when events finish would be well used.
|
|