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Post by borneobus on Jul 12, 2023 7:22:39 GMT
Exactly the same argument with the £350 Million that will go to the NHS from leaving the EU , Thing is a lot of people here in the UK are unfortunately short sighted and see things as "I don't get ex amount of money so why should Tube/Train drivers" , these strikes aren't even about baseline pay it's about pensions and working conditions but people will always bang on about pay and the media owned largely by people who pay literally zero tax here seems to dictate what a large number of people think but most people are too brainwashed too see it , especially sad to see when it's working classes being pitted against eachother or blaming migrants for every single problem but what can you do As for the future though with CBTC/ATO and AI/Mobile ticketing etc over the next 10/15 years there will be major changes to all modes of transport I believe and almost every industry so strikes are going to become more commonplace in a lot of industries. The £350m was a suggestion not a promise, I think it's fair to say that misleading claims were made by both sides in the Brexit campaign. Working classes (do they really exist anymore?) aren't being pitted against each other, train strikes and NHS strikes are seen by many in a totally different light. Was "Taking back control" a suggestion or a promise? (similar to the 350 million quid, that was also on the side of that bus...)
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Post by joefrombow on Jul 12, 2023 7:24:04 GMT
Exactly the same argument with the £350 Million that will go to the NHS from leaving the EU , Thing is a lot of people here in the UK are unfortunately short sighted and see things as "I don't get ex amount of money so why should Tube/Train drivers" , these strikes aren't even about baseline pay it's about pensions and working conditions but people will always bang on about pay and the media owned largely by people who pay literally zero tax here seems to dictate what a large number of people think but most people are too brainwashed too see it , especially sad to see when it's working classes being pitted against eachother or blaming migrants for every single problem but what can you do As for the future though with CBTC/ATO and AI/Mobile ticketing etc over the next 10/15 years there will be major changes to all modes of transport I believe and almost every industry so strikes are going to become more commonplace in a lot of industries. The £350m was a suggestion not a promise, I think it's fair to say that misleading claims were made by both sides in the Brexit campaign. Working classes (do they really exist anymore?) aren't being pitted against each other, train strikes and NHS strikes are seen by many in a totally different light. Misleading yes but it's the same argument if tube drivers are holding up funds that could be used to pay NHS Staff as someone said , and working classes why would you say they don't exist ? And yes but many people also agree a race to the bottom for one group Train drivers or Bus drivers is a race to the bottom for all .
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Post by greenboy on Jul 12, 2023 7:37:49 GMT
The £350m was a suggestion not a promise, I think it's fair to say that misleading claims were made by both sides in the Brexit campaign. Working classes (do they really exist anymore?) aren't being pitted against each other, train strikes and NHS strikes are seen by many in a totally different light. Was "Taking back control" a suggestion or a promise? (similar to the 350 million quid, that was also on the side of that bus...) This was a few years ago now and I don't think we need to go through it all again but I think most people would agree that misleading claims were made by both sides.
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Post by greenboy on Jul 12, 2023 7:42:27 GMT
The £350m was a suggestion not a promise, I think it's fair to say that misleading claims were made by both sides in the Brexit campaign. Working classes (do they really exist anymore?) aren't being pitted against each other, train strikes and NHS strikes are seen by many in a totally different light. Misleading yes but it's the same argument if tube drivers are holding up funds that could be used to pay NHS Staff as someone said , and working classes why would you say they don't exist ? And yes but many people also agree a race to the bottom for one group Train drivers or Bus drivers is a race to the bottom for all . Whether working classes still exist is obviously a matter of opinion and I don't really see this race to the bottom argument. In many European countries most ticket offices were closed long ago as advances in technology meant that they were no longer needed.
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Post by wirewiper on Jul 12, 2023 8:39:35 GMT
Misleading yes but it's the same argument if tube drivers are holding up funds that could be used to pay NHS Staff as someone said , and working classes why would you say they don't exist ? And yes but many people also agree a race to the bottom for one group Train drivers or Bus drivers is a race to the bottom for all . Whether working classes still exist is obviously a matter of opinion and I don't really see this race to the bottom argument. In many European countries most ticket offices were closed long ago as advances in technology meant that they were no longer needed. I don't have any objection with ticket offices closing in principle - but for heaven's sake, not before the current fares structuring and ticketing arrangements have been drastically simplified (which is what TfL did). As they stand they are unnecessarily complicated and some people will be deterred from travelling by train if they do not have the opportunity to talk the options through with a knowledgeable human being. The Government converted all the TOCs to Management Contracts at the start of Covid so they can set fares where they like.
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Post by greenboy on Jul 12, 2023 8:42:49 GMT
Whether working classes still exist is obviously a matter of opinion and I don't really see this race to the bottom argument. In many European countries most ticket offices were closed long ago as advances in technology meant that they were no longer needed. I don't have any objection with ticket offices closing in principle - but for heaven's sake, not before the current fares structuring and ticketing arrangements have been drastically simplified (which is what TfL did). As they stand they are unnecessarily complicated and some people will be deterred from travelling by train if they do not have the opportunity to talk the options through with a knowledgeable human being. The Government converted all the TOCs to Management Contracts at the start of Covid so they can set fares where they like. Yes that's a fair point, I think everyone would agree that ticketing needs to be made a lot simpler.
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Post by capitalomnibus on Jul 12, 2023 14:21:25 GMT
How do you justify the statement "tube drivers earn more than they should?" Because he's read a few too many copies of the Daily Mail More likely the Guardian or Daily Mirror
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Post by capitalomnibus on Jul 12, 2023 14:24:37 GMT
Agree that NHS staff are underpaid, that isn't the issue of tube drivers however. Both are roles with unique skill that require appropriate wages. Bare in mind on the mainline railway there's actually a shortage of drivers in some parts because it's been a struggle to replace retiring drivers....and some think wage cuts will sort that. Crackers. I’m sorry but if nearly 60k is not appropriate what is! It’s an absolute joke that they think it’s acceptable to strike and keep demanding more money! The NHS staff deserve the increases they have been striking for! The same applies for lots of other jobs who have had very modest pay increases. I thought this strike was over pensions though
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Post by WH241 on Jul 12, 2023 14:26:23 GMT
Because he's read a few too many copies of the Daily Mail More likely the Guardian or Daily Mirror The Guardian is what the person making the initial comment reads! The forum can be very left wing when it comes to striking and workers rights.
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Post by capitalomnibus on Jul 12, 2023 14:30:20 GMT
Oh look another round of pitting the working class against each other, but no disdain towards Fatcat CEO's who are earning £2k an hour. Not sure why anyone on here is looking down their noses at any other occupation. My wages and fares don't go hand in hand either... Obviously, the daily mail will tell you otherwise, then you'll come on the internet and be a keyboard warrior... Anyway, I look forward to reading more armchair comments. Nothing to do with pitting the working class against each other, it is REALITY. People are not foolish and have woken up and smelt the coffee. A lot of chav papers like the Guardian or Daily Mirror like to dictate lies from the reality. End of the day, we do not have hundreds of fat cat CEO's as you put it earning £2k an hour in one company!
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Post by capitalomnibus on Jul 12, 2023 14:38:02 GMT
It’s not about being a keyboard warrior! But do you really think the majority will have sympathy? We are in the most of a cost of living crisis here you literally see people waiting in supermarkets for food to be reduced. I am pretty sure tube and train drivers have managed a lot better on 60k than others. I would love to know what you consider a fair increase would be! O and I don’t read the Daily Mail before you say it. Once again, I've not directed my message at you, but once again you've taken it as a personal attack, you've done this for years on this forum under all your other aliases it's really boring. Again, I'm not sure I need support, the RDG is trying to impose quite ridiculous changes, which I consider to be dangerous to passengers and we're seeing it with maintenance being cut back, ESR's and TSR's being imposed for cracked rails, or buckled rails. Fewer carriages are available for passengers because longer trains are too expensive to run. I respect everyone's career path, and can't fathom why wages are always a vocal point, wages went up after the cessation of BR and the introduction of privatization, I know many of my colleagues wouldn't drive if the salary was what it was under BR days. I'm fulfilling a boyhood dream and I'm always encouraging others to join the industry. But the days of BR, even LUL pay was lower, especially back in the 70's. I am sure if BR was around now, the pay would have been more for train drivers, due to its easier to get wage increases out of government owned companies, hence what happened with LUL. There are reasons why many government owned companies are also made private, is to cut down on costs, and keep wages lower. The bus industry in London is a prime example of that.
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Post by capitalomnibus on Jul 12, 2023 14:47:54 GMT
Hello there, my first post of the year - I usually just read bits and pieces on the forum but I’ll make an exception for this thread. The strikes mentioned are not principally about pay or just the driver grade as some posts on here seem to indicate. There’s quite a few issues running in tandem which include pension changes, a proposed new attendance at work policy, changes to driver rostering & agreements and changes to station staff numbers and coverage. There are many other areas of complaint on multiple levels which add to the concerns people have presently. Now, you could think that this is the nature of any business and sometimes things need to change - however - the organisation themselves have quite widely publicised that their post-pandemic recovery is much better than they thought, and they’re in a position to make a surplus at the end of this financial year. That’s a surplus on the current model which indicates there is enough money going around and begs the question of why anything actually needs to change? What would the public see from these changes and corresponding saved money? Well, the organisation definitely won’t reduce fares so it’ll be a more expensive outlay for a worse service, with less station staff (there aren’t enough now) and a more unsafe environment on stations & trains. The proposed trains cover model is totally unworkable with the removal of any recovery margins/measures meaning that after any delays/incidents the train service will be decimated. A lot of the trains will be in depots because the required staff won’t be there, even normal everyday issues would see the potential for drastically reduced services. What’s being proposed would completely ruin the lives of many staff, the flexible coverage model for trains that’s been drafted would cause so much stress and fatigue (akin to a model that was proposed and kicked out on British Rail way back in 1982 - if it wasn’t acceptable 40 years ago how can it be how?) and stations with increasing passenger numbers would have less staff. The train service disruption would have further knock on effects to stress levels for those in control rooms and of course create an even more volatile environment for station staff. Things are not easy now with coverage so tight and with everything being turned upside down - including all agreements and recognised practices being put in the bin - this is causing much upset and the ballot returns have reflected this. When you add the proposed attendance procedure, where someone is classed as being long-term sick after just seven days (yes, that’s right - anything above a self cert) this would cause tremendous pressure and affect the health of many many people. RMT is heavily involved with the ‘Enough is Enough’ campaign. I can imagine there are people out there who see other jobs having harsh conditions, hours, pay rates and workplace practices and wonder why rail workers should be different. The thing is they shouldn’t be and that’s what Enough is Enough is all about, and why the government didn’t want RMT to win the main line rail dispute and set a precedent for people everywhere to expect better. Enough is Enough have employed economists to carry out studies to prove what most people know anyway - that there is enough money in this country but it’s all in the wrong places. Models have shown that a redistribution exercise to benefit a far wider group of people is perfectly feasible and would be workable to implement. Industrial action such as discussed on this thread is representative of the mood over the whole country and I see a lot of support between people of different industries. I have in-laws on the buses in London and my mother as well as my wife both work for the NHS, so I see the battles taking place and am constantly saddened at the conditions for many people. We’ve had a race-to-the-bottom culture for too long now due to corporate greed and a lot of people in this country have their eyes open to it now and agree there needs to be a change. I’d support anyone taking action in any industry right now as the ‘Broken Britain’ tag is very very true with many in horrible situations not of their own making. People everywhere really have had enough. Can you elaborate on some of the things you said like: Attendance at work policy Changes to driver rostering What is changing for staff working on the underground and rail I'm not anti train driver but I do think that our railways are in decline partly due to the issues of cutting station staff. However train drivers earn a considerable amount of money especially comparing to bus drivers, who I'd say has an easier job than driving a bus. Most professions don't pay £60k a year. Regarding the NHS it's been overwhelmed ever since Covid and even without the virus the situation is still bad. My mum works in the NHS, she works 12 hour days and sometimes nights. I know that train drivers also do shift patterns like starting at 5am and finishing at 1.30am. it's not the easiest job in the world. But there is not anywhere as much train drivers as bus drivers in the country. Plus buses do not generate anywhere near the revenue as trains.
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Post by TA1 on Jul 12, 2023 15:41:17 GMT
Oh look another round of pitting the working class against each other, but no disdain towards Fatcat CEO's who are earning £2k an hour. Not sure why anyone on here is looking down their noses at any other occupation. My wages and fares don't go hand in hand either... Obviously, the daily mail will tell you otherwise, then you'll come on the internet and be a keyboard warrior... Anyway, I look forward to reading more armchair comments. Nothing to do with pitting the working class against each other, it is REALITY. People are not foolish and have woken up and smelt the coffee. A lot of chav papers like the Guardian or Daily Mirror like to dictate lies from the reality. End of the day, we do not have hundreds of fat cat CEO's as you put it earning £2k an hour in one company! The pitting together of the working class has been occurring on this very forum for nearly year now. What's the REALITY? You have both hundreds of Fat Cat Ceo's and MP's earning much more than train drivers and other railway workers, but it's us many have a problem with...
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Post by southlondon413 on Jul 12, 2023 15:46:12 GMT
Nothing to do with pitting the working class against each other, it is REALITY. People are not foolish and have woken up and smelt the coffee. A lot of chav papers like the Guardian or Daily Mirror like to dictate lies from the reality. End of the day, we do not have hundreds of fat cat CEO's as you put it earning £2k an hour in one company! The pitting together of the working class has been occurring on this very forum for nearly year now. What's the REALITY? You have both hundreds of Fat Cat Ceo's and MP's earning much more than train drivers and other railway workers, but it's us many have a problem with... I thin you need to move away from this “Fat Cat CEO” mentality. The overwhelming majority of CEOs have worked from the bottom to the very top of their chosen career, they haven’t just walked into those roles from university or just off the street. They are fully responsible for every success and ultimately liable for every failure of their companies so like you they are worthy of a decent salary to represent a lifetime of hard work. They aren’t the enemy when they answer to shareholders and investors like banks or funds like pension companies.
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Post by greenboy on Jul 12, 2023 16:21:42 GMT
Nothing to do with pitting the working class against each other, it is REALITY. People are not foolish and have woken up and smelt the coffee. A lot of chav papers like the Guardian or Daily Mirror like to dictate lies from the reality. End of the day, we do not have hundreds of fat cat CEO's as you put it earning £2k an hour in one company! The pitting together of the working class has been occurring on this very forum for nearly year now. What's the REALITY? You have both hundreds of Fat Cat Ceo's and MP's earning much more than train drivers and other railway workers, but it's us many have a problem with... There is no united working class, different people will have different opinions on things, and aren't these references to 'fat cats' just a smokescreen?
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