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Post by snoggle on Dec 17, 2013 23:00:23 GMT
I'm surprised they haven't looked at extending the 17 down to Peckham instead of the 136 up to Elephant. Both routes run at roughly the same frequencies but the 17 would also offer better links into the City. The 343 could be cut back to Elephant and remove what is a traffic bottleneck through Borough and London Bridge, maybe with a small frequency reduction, as the 17 would cover this anyway. It would also remove the current light run loop on the 17 to Borough Station which must be costing an extra bus or two on the PVR, so why not have them providing service? By my reckoning (so probably wrong) the 17 extension and associated 343 cut could be done far cheaper than extending the 136. If the 343 were to be retained through to City Hall then an alternative routing for the 17 could be from Borough along Great Dover Street, Old Kent Road, Albany Road then back onto the 343 route to Peckham. *hides* Moz The comment made to me by someone in a position to know better than I do was that part of the 343 debacle might be solved if another route was to run through North Peckham towards Waterloo thus splitting out the loadings through Peckham to those wanting the City and those wanting to head more generally to the West End or Holborn. I suspect that even just getting as far as Aldwych might help a decent amount as Holborn / Law Courts / Covent Garden are all readily walkable from there. It would also take some pressure off through Waterloo but not result in the route being swamped with commuters wanting to go further than Aldwych. Not sure what the right candidate for extension would be - I'm half tempted to muck about with the 172 given no one has a good word for it. I don't particularly disagree with your 17 idea but the route would need decent recovery time in it given the potential for traffic nastiness through London Bridge and Borough. London Central seem to do OK with the 21 running to Newington Green so a cross City route is not necessarily a bad idea at all. The 17 gets close to Farringdon which will be a major part of town when Thameslink and Crossrail all connect. Getting better links there is no bad idea as it's a bit of an "unsung" bit of the bus network around there.
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Post by M1104 on Dec 18, 2013 3:06:20 GMT
I'm surprised they haven't looked at extending the 17 down to Peckham instead of the 136 up to Elephant. Both routes run at roughly the same frequencies but the 17 would also offer better links into the City. The 343 could be cut back to Elephant and remove what is a traffic bottleneck through Borough and London Bridge, maybe with a small frequency reduction, as the 17 would cover this anyway. It would also remove the current light run loop on the 17 to Borough Station which must be costing an extra bus or two on the PVR, so why not have them providing service? By my reckoning (so probably wrong) the 17 extension and associated 343 cut could be done far cheaper than extending the 136. If the 343 were to be retained through to City Hall then an alternative routing for the 17 could be from Borough along Great Dover Street, Old Kent Road, Albany Road then back onto the 343 route to Peckham. *hides* Moz The comment made to me by someone in a position to know better than I do was that part of the 343 debacle might be solved if another route was to run through North Peckham towards Waterloo thus splitting out the loadings through Peckham to those wanting the City and those wanting to head more generally to the West End or Holborn. I suspect that even just getting as far as Aldwych might help a decent amount as Holborn / Law Courts / Covent Garden are all readily walkable from there. It would also take some pressure off through Waterloo but not result in the route being swamped with commuters wanting to go further than Aldwych. Not sure what the right candidate for extension would be - I'm half tempted to muck about with the 172 given no one has a good word for it. . How about rerouting the 168 via the 343 to Peckham instead?
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Route 136
Dec 18, 2013 3:18:18 GMT
via mobile
Post by vjaska on Dec 18, 2013 3:18:18 GMT
I'm surprised they haven't looked at extending the 17 down to Peckham instead of the 136 up to Elephant. Both routes run at roughly the same frequencies but the 17 would also offer better links into the City. The 343 could be cut back to Elephant and remove what is a traffic bottleneck through Borough and London Bridge, maybe with a small frequency reduction, as the 17 would cover this anyway. It would also remove the current light run loop on the 17 to Borough Station which must be costing an extra bus or two on the PVR, so why not have them providing service? By my reckoning (so probably wrong) the 17 extension and associated 343 cut could be done far cheaper than extending the 136. If the 343 were to be retained through to City Hall then an alternative routing for the 17 could be from Borough along Great Dover Street, Old Kent Road, Albany Road then back onto the 343 route to Peckham. *hides* Moz The comment made to me by someone in a position to know better than I do was that part of the 343 debacle might be solved if another route was to run through North Peckham towards Waterloo thus splitting out the loadings through Peckham to those wanting the City and those wanting to head more generally to the West End or Holborn. I suspect that even just getting as far as Aldwych might help a decent amount as Holborn / Law Courts / Covent Garden are all readily walkable from there. It would also take some pressure off through Waterloo but not result in the route being swamped with commuters wanting to go further than Aldwych. Not sure what the right candidate for extension would be - I'm half tempted to muck about with the 172 given no one has a good word for it. I don't particularly disagree with your 17 idea but the route would need decent recovery time in it given the potential for traffic nastiness through London Bridge and Borough. London Central seem to do OK with the 21 running to Newington Green so a cross City route is not necessarily a bad idea at all. The 17 gets close to Farringdon which will be a major part of town when Thameslink and Crossrail all connect. Getting better links there is no bad idea as it's a bit of an "unsung" bit of the bus network around there. I did suggest a while back a new 443 route which would run between Lewisham & Elephant via the 343. Obviously, you could extend it onwards to Aldwych to meet with what you were describing above.
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Post by sw11simon on Dec 18, 2013 10:04:21 GMT
The comment made to me by someone in a position to know better than I do was that part of the 343 debacle might be solved if another route was to run through North Peckham towards Waterloo thus splitting out the loadings through Peckham to those wanting the City and those wanting to head more generally to the West End or Holborn. I suspect that even just getting as far as Aldwych might help a decent amount as Holborn / Law Courts / Covent Garden are all readily walkable from there. It would also take some pressure off through Waterloo but not result in the route being swamped with commuters wanting to go further than Aldwych. Not sure what the right candidate for extension would be - I'm half tempted to muck about with the 172 given no one has a good word for it. . How about rerouting the 168 via the 343 to Peckham instead? The 168 extension was suggested formally, I believe by Valerie Shawcross (I was party to some of the 343 lobbying when I worked at Camberwell 2-4 years ago) but TfL turned in down on cost and reliability grounds (i.e. would make the route too long). The 17 would probably be more expensive to extend than the 136... It would likely need longer comparative running time over busier roads and light running to and from the south as well as the north. I would imagine most light running on the 17 is currently to and from Archway. Extending the 136 to Elephant would not change the structure of the route in this way, and most buses would start and finish at Grove Park. Ideally, a west end link is desired through North Peckham - a side complaint is that the 343 does not really go where people want to go. However, Elephant offers lots of capacity on the 12/453 so Elephant will suffice under the current regime of savings, and increasing capacity is the main aim. I'm going to guess it is likely to stand alongside the 155/363/468, there is generally space there apart from quiet mornings.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2013 12:29:26 GMT
The North Peckham area could also do with some more local links to Walworth Road, Camberwell Green and Kings College Hospital
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Post by overgroundcommuter on Dec 18, 2013 12:47:01 GMT
The North Peckham area could also do with some more local links to Walworth Road, Camberwell Green and Kings College Hospital There's an indirect link to Walworth Road by getting off the bus at the opposite end of East Street on the 42/343 and walking along East Street or the 343 stops at the end of Walworth Road at the Elephant end and it's a short walk to the main shops. Agree about Kings. Incidentally there isn't really a direct bus link from Peckham to Kings at all, the 345 stops the closest in Coldharbour Lane from Peckham Road, but again it's a change of bus from the 343 in Peckham or the 42 in Albany Road which does serve Kings directly.
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Post by danorak on Dec 18, 2013 12:51:13 GMT
I always liked the idea of transferring some journeys off the 12 to run via the 343 routeing & terminating at Peckham (under a new number). This would have enabled a reduction over the Dulwich - Peckham section, but as the 12 was recently reduced, I think that moment has passed. If the 136 plan is what we all surmise, then it's quite an imaginative solution.
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Post by M1104 on Dec 18, 2013 13:04:17 GMT
The North Peckham area could also do with some more local links to Walworth Road, Camberwell Green and Kings College Hospital That could be done by rerouting the 40 from Walworth Road via Albany Road, Wells Way, Southampton Way, Peckham Road and Camberwell Church Street then back onto its original routing on to Dulwich Library.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2013 15:43:42 GMT
The North Peckham area could also do with some more local links to Walworth Road, Camberwell Green and Kings College Hospital That could be done by rerouting the 40 from Walworth Road via Albany Road, Wells Way, Southampton Way, Peckham Road and Camberwell Church Street then back onto its original routing on to Dulwich Library. Yes I like that idea, and as the 40 would provide the link to London Bridge the 343 could be rerouted after E&C into the west end
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Post by overgroundcommuter on Dec 18, 2013 20:53:55 GMT
A couple of issues with the Route 40 suggestion. A reduction in capacity between Camberwell Green and the Elephant via Camberwell Road would put pressure on the 35 for journeys to London Bridge, it'd also increase journey times from East Dulwich to London Bridge, along with adding extra passengers on the 176 as it'd be the only direct route between Denmark Hill and Dulwich. Route 176 is already busy as it is and the 40 allows some extra capacity in that area. Also Peckham Road/Camberwell Church Street would see buses going to Dulwich Library in both directions along a long section of road.
I know there are areas where routes going to to the same destination in both directions, such as the 122 and 202 to Crystal Palace in Kirkdale, yet it only affects two stops.
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Route 136
Dec 18, 2013 22:52:24 GMT
via mobile
Post by vjaska on Dec 18, 2013 22:52:24 GMT
A couple of issues with the Route 40 suggestion. A reduction in capacity between Camberwell Green and the Elephant via Camberwell Road would put pressure on the 35 for journeys to London Bridge, it'd also increase journey times from East Dulwich to London Bridge, along with adding extra passengers on the 176 as it'd be the only direct route between Denmark Hill and Dulwich. Route 176 is already busy as it is and the 40 allows some extra capacity in that area. Also Peckham Road/Camberwell Church Street would see buses going to Dulwich Library in both directions along a long section of road. I know there are areas where routes going to to the same destination in both directions, such as the 122 and 202 to Crystal Palace in Kirkdale, yet it only affects two stops. The 185 follows the 176 between Camberwell Green & Forest Hill so it wouldn't be the only direct route between Denmark Hill & Dulwich.
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Post by M1104 on Dec 19, 2013 0:13:47 GMT
A couple of issues with the Route 40 suggestion. A reduction in capacity between Camberwell Green and the Elephant via Camberwell Road would put pressure on the 35 for journeys to London Bridge, it'd also increase journey times from East Dulwich to London Bridge, along with adding extra passengers on the 176 as it'd be the only direct route between Denmark Hill and Dulwich. Route 176 is already busy as it is and the 40 allows some extra capacity in that area. Also Peckham Road/Camberwell Church Street would see buses going to Dulwich Library in both directions along a long section of road. I know there are areas where routes going to to the same destination in both directions, such as the 122 and 202 to Crystal Palace in Kirkdale, yet it only affects two stops. The 40 would still be running between Denmark Hill and Dulwich and yes there would be a capacity reduction but it would not be from Camberwell all the way to the Elephant but rather from Camberwell Green to the stops by John Ruskin Street.
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Post by overgroundcommuter on Dec 19, 2013 0:17:11 GMT
A couple of issues with the Route 40 suggestion. A reduction in capacity between Camberwell Green and the Elephant via Camberwell Road would put pressure on the 35 for journeys to London Bridge, it'd also increase journey times from East Dulwich to London Bridge, along with adding extra passengers on the 176 as it'd be the only direct route between Denmark Hill and Dulwich. Route 176 is already busy as it is and the 40 allows some extra capacity in that area. Also Peckham Road/Camberwell Church Street would see buses going to Dulwich Library in both directions along a long section of road. I know there are areas where routes going to to the same destination in both directions, such as the 122 and 202 to Crystal Palace in Kirkdale, yet it only affects two stops. The 185 follows the 176 between Camberwell Green & Forest Hill so it wouldn't be the only direct route between Denmark Hill & Dulwich. It'd still be a reduction in capacity between Elephant and Dulwich by re-routing the 40.
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Post by overgroundcommuter on Dec 19, 2013 0:21:33 GMT
A couple of issues with the Route 40 suggestion. A reduction in capacity between Camberwell Green and the Elephant via Camberwell Road would put pressure on the 35 for journeys to London Bridge, it'd also increase journey times from East Dulwich to London Bridge, along with adding extra passengers on the 176 as it'd be the only direct route between Denmark Hill and Dulwich. Route 176 is already busy as it is and the 40 allows some extra capacity in that area. Also Peckham Road/Camberwell Church Street would see buses going to Dulwich Library in both directions along a long section of road. I know there are areas where routes going to to the same destination in both directions, such as the 122 and 202 to Crystal Palace in Kirkdale, yet it only affects two stops. The 40 would still be running between Denmark Hill and Dulwich and yes there would be a capacity reduction but it would not be from Camberwell to Elephant but rather from Camberwell Green to the junction of John Ruskin Street. With much longer journey times for those affected south of Denmark Hill. It could be argued that the section between Denmark Hill and Dulwich on the 40 is the least used part of the route, yet is popular in the morning peak.
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Post by snoggle on Jan 13, 2014 12:31:45 GMT
And here folks is the official consultation on extending the 136 to E&C. Consultation Linkbasically it extends the 136 as predicted with Peckham Bus Station not being served. 1 bus will be removed from the 343's peak service.
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