Route 108 extension campaign

[Mokujin]

Dec 15, 2013 8:42:50 GMT DT 11 said:

I like the idea, since Stratford City opened I honestly thought it would be a better terminus for the 108 simply because it avoids delays in Stratford Centre. I think if it went to at Least Stratford International it would be a great thing.

I also think the 108 needs 12m Citaros. I think the DWLs and EDs are starting to get tired. I also think it needs more running time and a frequency increase in the Peaks to reduce curtailments from happening. The link from Lewisham to North Greenwich is very popular and what I find is that, Bexleyheath have 3 services to North Greenwich, Woolwich have 4 (486), Lewisham only have 1 which is single decker which cannot be helped.

North Greenwich also have 1 service to Central London, my beloved 188

[Deleted]

Last time I went through the Blackwall tunnel was when I drove the 108's for Harris Bus.....

Now my memory may not be quite so vivid but I do seem to recall two extremely tight bends in the northbound tunnel that would preclude the use of 12m vehicles. I also recall a couple of left hand turns in Lewisham & Woolwhich, in the Stratford bound direction, that were tight enough in an Excel let alone something as long as 12m.

Maybe I'm wrong but I'm not convinced 12m vehicles are physically practical on the this route.

[Deleted]

Dec 16, 2013 11:40:55 GMT colin said:

Last time I went through the Blackwall tunnel was when I drove the 108's for Harris Bus.....

Now my memory may not be quite so vivid but I do seem to recall two extremely tight bends in the northbound tunnel that would preclude the use of 12m vehicles. I also recall a couple of left hand turns in Lewisham & Woolwhich, in the Stratford bound direction, that were tight enough in an Excel let alone something as long as 12m.

Maybe I'm wrong but I'm not convinced 12m vehicles are physically practical on the this route.

Lorries and coaches of a similar length manage ok, impossible to know without testing one out.

Woolwich? The 108 doesn't go there. No problems around Lewisham but may possibly be around the loop the 108 does at Bow

[TA1]

Dec 16, 2013 15:21:12 GMT @batterseaboy said:

Dec 16, 2013 11:40:55 GMT colin said:

Last time I went through the Blackwall tunnel was when I drove the 108's for Harris Bus.....

Now my memory may not be quite so vivid but I do seem to recall two extremely tight bends in the northbound tunnel that would preclude the use of 12m vehicles. I also recall a couple of left hand turns in Lewisham & Woolwhich, in the Stratford bound direction, that were tight enough in an Excel let alone something as long as 12m.

Maybe I'm wrong but I'm not convinced 12m vehicles are physically practical on the this route.

Lorries and coaches of a similar length manage ok, impossible to know without testing one out.

Woolwich? The 108 doesn't go there. No problems around Lewisham but may possibly be around the loop the 108 does at Bow

Usually the larger vehicles indicated to signify their could be a possibility they will veer out of their lanes through the bends.

I can't see why 12m buses wouldn't fit round the 108, when the jubilee line was closed for engineering work to upgrade the line to ATO. MEC's (Mercedes Benz Citaro's) - rigids. Provide extra capacity on the route if I remember correctly.
Also I've travelled through the Blackwall Tunnel on a Jubliee Line rail replacement - operated by Arriva London Ciatro.

[Mokujin]

I know this may be a silly question but can the Government do anything to enlarge the Tunnel so DDs can pass through when going north or will this be a thing that will happen forever?

[Trident]

Dec 15, 2013 8:42:50 GMT DT 11 said:

I like the idea, since Stratford City opened I honestly thought it would be a better terminus for the 108 simply because it avoids delays in Stratford Centre. I think if it went to at Least Stratford International it would be a great thing.

I also think the 108 needs 12m Citaros. I think the DWLs and EDs are starting to get tired. I also think it needs more running time and a frequency increase in the Peaks to reduce curtailments from happening. The link from Lewisham to North Greenwich is very popular and what I find is that, Bexleyheath have 3 services to North Greenwich, Woolwich have 4 (486), Lewisham only have 1 which is single decker which cannot be helped.

The Stratford gyratory in general flows well throughout the day and busy periods. The times where you are most likely to get delays there is when the Central Line or any other major rail link is shut.

[snoggle]

Dec 16, 2013 16:06:38 GMT Mokujin said:

I know this may be a silly question but can the Government do anything to enlarge the Tunnel so DDs can pass through when going north or will this be a thing that will happen forever?

It's not a government responsibility - it's down to TfL as it's part of their road network. TfL and the Mayor have consulted on river crossings in East London. link

The main ideas seem to be a road tunnel from Silvertown to Greenwich Peninsula and a Galleons Reach ferry service. This would replace the Woolwich Ferry (I believe).

The problem is that everyone agrees the existing river crossings are overloaded but no one can agree on how to expand capacity. Some boroughs want better cross river links using a bridge but none of them want the extra traffic that would inevitably arise or the pollution. Bexley Council, in particular, are vehemently against any bridge or tunnel crossing that would mean more traffic in their borough. Given that the political make up of Bexley Council is very unlikely to change this means you have a council that will never agree to the construction of extra link roads on the south side of the Thames. They are apparently in support of the proposed ferry service.

Ken Livingstone tried to get the Thames Gateway Bridge built but it faced massive opposition - particularly on environmental grounds. That bridge would have included bus and cycle lanes, a pedestrian crossing and provision for a future DLR link as well as a dual carriageway. Boris cancelled it within months of taking office and we've had 4 years of no action until the recent consultations. There are recent rumours that a bridge option is being reconsidered. I think Greenwich Council are now so fed up with the delays that they're considering building the tunnel themselves.

[snowman]

Dec 16, 2013 16:06:38 GMT Mokujin said:

I know this may be a silly question but can the Government do anything to enlarge the Tunnel so DDs can pass through when going north or will this be a thing that will happen forever?

It would be hugely disruptive to enlarge the tunnel. Would have to be closed during the work. It would be much easier to bore a new tunnel alongside. It would be possible to alter the approaches so that old tunnel is reached by a diveunder for cars from the middle lanes so it could be made tidal flow at peaks for smaller vehicles.

An engineering friend advises me that one of the TBMs from the Plumsted-North Woolwich crossrail tunnel could be used. It would need a new cutterhead section but existing backup sections could be reused (they have more than enough life in them before scrapping) Effectively allows job to be done on cheap compared to fully new TBM but no one has will toake it happen

[twobellstogo]

Dec 16, 2013 17:45:17 GMT snoggle said:

. They are apparently in support of the proposed ferry service.

Yes, but it's pretty grudging support, there are many within the council who would rather there be no extra crossings whatsoever.

[Deleted]

The 108 was one route where the Articulated 'bendy' citaro's could have come into their own! I use this route regularly to go south of the water from Poplar and if it is a no Jubilee line weekend the buses are packed. I do not believe putting the route to the Olympic park would be the best move as it is an unreliable service due to the 'pipe' and the difficulties that poses.

incidentally the stops at Blackwall Tunnel/East India Dock Road in each direction have no wheelchair access to street level! I wonder if anyone has ever alighted in wheelchair and found that they have been trapped there until the next 108 shows up?

[6HP502C]

Operators are given a specification and have a choice of buses to buy. If the new contract specifies 70 capacity single deckers, or however many people a 12m bus can hold, they won't necessarily be Citaros. 12m single deckers present certain structural challenges which make them expensive to buy, operate and maintain in comparison to SDs less than 11m.

I think that due to the physical constraint on the 108 precluding the use of DDs, it is something that might be worth looking into when the contract is up for renewal, in the unlikely event that 12m buses haven't already been tested.

I suspect splitting the route would break too many links to make it worthwhile.

[snoggle]

Dec 20, 2013 10:18:37 GMT 6HP502C said:

Operators are given a specification and have a choice of buses to buy. If the new contract specifies 70 capacity single deckers, or however many people a 12m bus can hold, they won't necessarily be Citaros. 12m single deckers present certain structural challenges which make them expensive to buy, operate and maintain in comparison to SDs less than 11m.

I think that due to the physical constraint on the 108 precluding the use of DDs, it is something that might be worth looking into when the contract is up for renewal, in the unlikely event that 12m buses haven't already been tested.

I suspect splitting the route would break too many links to make it worthwhile.

What are the "structural challenges" you are referring to? Obviously a 12m single decker will be somewhat heavier but that also tends to give them a more compliant, comfortable ride quality than lightweight, shorter single deckers. The simple point to make here is that buses less than 11m in length are all very well until you get to the point that there is no more capacity left and people are getting left behind. This is increasingly the case in London. The 108 also has a few stretches where the extra power and acceleration of a Citaro (or similar) would be beneficial in getting back into the traffic flow - e.g. on the A12. Clearly Citaros can get through the Blackwall Tunnel in both directions - the only really tight turns I can think of are near Westcombe Park but I'm not a bus driver so who knows if a 12m rigid can get round there or not.

[southeastlondonbus]

Dec 20, 2013 19:34:31 GMT snoggle said:

Dec 20, 2013 10:18:37 GMT 6HP502C said:

Operators are given a specification and have a choice of buses to buy. If the new contract specifies 70 capacity single deckers, or however many people a 12m bus can hold, they won't necessarily be Citaros. 12m single deckers present certain structural challenges which make them expensive to buy, operate and maintain in comparison to SDs less than 11m.

I think that due to the physical constraint on the 108 precluding the use of DDs, it is something that might be worth looking into when the contract is up for renewal, in the unlikely event that 12m buses haven't already been tested.

I suspect splitting the route would break too many links to make it worthwhile.

What are the "structural challenges" you are referring to? Obviously a 12m single decker will be somewhat heavier but that also tends to give them a more compliant, comfortable ride quality than lightweight, shorter single deckers. The simple point to make here is that buses less than 11m in length are all very well until you get to the point that there is no more capacity left and people are getting left behind. This is increasingly the case in London. The 108 also has a few stretches where the extra power and acceleration of a Citaro (or similar) would be beneficial in getting back into the traffic flow - e.g. on the A12. Clearly Citaros can get through the Blackwall Tunnel in both directions - the only really tight turns I can think of are near Westcombe Park but I'm not a bus driver so who knows if a 12m rigid can get round there or not.

Back in Boro'line days the 108 was operated with Lynx's so longer vehicle's are not unheard of but they did all sport replacement corner panels after a short period of time in service.

[ilovelondonbuses]

Although this is a great idea I think they are more important issues to intend to with this route like it needs huge increase in the capacity in its buses and in PVR too.

[eggmiester]

The simplest resolution is to up the frequency with buses of a similar length to the DWL's/ED's.