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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2013 11:41:19 GMT
On this occasion, I probably disagree.
The simplest, and cheapest, solution is to have buses of the maximum capacity possible before increasing frequency. I have driven the 108, and it is often as busy at 0500 on a Sunday morning as it is during the peak, mainly as the Jubilee line has not yet started.
There are no issues on the route with 12m rigid buses, and I would advocate that above all else.
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Post by marlon101 on Dec 22, 2013 11:58:42 GMT
The simplest resolution is to up the frequency with buses of a similar length to the DWL's/ED's. So simple it was overlooked. Not like there aren't any, albeit unloved, DWLs knocking about...
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2013 13:34:15 GMT
Operators are given a specification and have a choice of buses to buy. If the new contract specifies 70 capacity single deckers, or however many people a 12m bus can hold, they won't necessarily be Citaros. 12m single deckers present certain structural challenges which make them expensive to buy, operate and maintain in comparison to SDs less than 11m. I think that due to the physical constraint on the 108 precluding the use of DDs, it is something that might be worth looking into when the contract is up for renewal, in the unlikely event that 12m buses haven't already been tested. I suspect splitting the route would break too many links to make it worthwhile. What are the "structural challenges" you are referring to? Obviously a 12m single decker will be somewhat heavier but that also tends to give them a more compliant, comfortable ride quality than lightweight, shorter single deckers. The simple point to make here is that buses less than 11m in length are all very well until you get to the point that there is no more capacity left and people are getting left behind. This is increasingly the case in London. The 108 also has a few stretches where the extra power and acceleration of a Citaro (or similar) would be beneficial in getting back into the traffic flow - e.g. on the A12. Clearly Citaros can get through the Blackwall Tunnel in both directions - the only really tight turns I can think of are near Westcombe Park but I'm not a bus driver so who knows if a 12m rigid can get round there or not. 12m rigids are about the same cost to buy and operate as 10m DDs (maybe marginally less) as they typically have the same tonnage and engine specifications. London's SDs tend to be midis which are much more lightweight - these are ok if they are less than 10m but begin to feel a bit flimsy when stretched to 11m (especially when forced to take full standing loads which they are not designed to). So between 11m and 12m you are talking about a step change in cost.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2013 13:57:12 GMT
I hate this route I have decided! Went to Blackwall Tunnel stop yesterday only to find out that there are no Buses between North Greenwich and Stratford until further notice due to roadworks.
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Post by stuckonthe486 on Dec 22, 2013 15:40:58 GMT
Hello - I should confess that I wrote the blog posts the original poster linked to.
There are certainly bigger problems with the 108, but a link to the Olympic Park from the south would be a very good thing, particularly as we've politicans that bleat on constantly about "Olympic legacy" this side of the river, so I thought I'd dip my toe in the water to see what the level of support was. I was surprised (and intrigued) to discover there was a fair bit of support for it.
It's not the end of the world if it doesn't happen, but it's good that there's some kind of discussion about making the 108 a better bus, and I wanted to promote a discussion about river crossing that wasn't aimed at motorists...
Olympic Park aside, the bigger problem's the overcrowding. My own idea would be to create a new route which duplicated the 108 from North Greenwich to at least Blackheath, then ran onto somewhere new to create a new link altogether (Bromley? Brockley? Either could work); hopefully fixing the problem and creating something new out of it. The only problem is that there seems to be insatiable demand for rush-hour routes to North Greenwich so it'd probably fill up within three or four years.
I know there's a huge aversion to running more routes through the tunnel for obvious reasons, but one of the respondents to the blog post had the intriguing suggestion of extending the 488 through the tunnel too.
I believe it's the 108's centenary next year, so it'd be good to give the old route some support!
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Post by snoggle on Dec 22, 2013 15:55:02 GMT
I hate this route I have decided! Went to Blackwall Tunnel stop yesterday only to find out that there are no Buses between North Greenwich and Stratford until further notice due to roadworks. To be fair it is not the responsibility of the route, TfL or London Central. I have had an E Mail from TfL explaining that it is Thames Water who have caused the A12 to "fall to bits" (I'm not sure quite what failed but I assume a water main or similar has gone). If it means a deep excavation to rectify a broken mains then that can take days and days to deal with. If you hate the 108 because of a knackered water main then I trust you will also hate all the routes in Regent Street that are being diverted because of the *third* mains water main break in a few months. Thames Water have not properly looked after their pipes or managed leakage for years and years. We are reaping the whirlwind of that neglect.
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Post by vjaska on Dec 22, 2013 15:59:58 GMT
I hate this route I have decided! Went to Blackwall Tunnel stop yesterday only to find out that there are no Buses between North Greenwich and Stratford until further notice due to roadworks. To be fair it is not the responsibility of the route, TfL or London Central. I have had an E Mail from TfL explaining that it is Thames Water who have caused the A12 to "fall to bits" (I'm not sure quite what failed but I assume a water main or similar has gone). If it means a deep excavation to rectify a broken mains then that can take days and days to deal with. If you hate the 108 because of a knackered water main then I trust you will also hate all the routes in Regent Street that are being diverted because of the *third* mains water main break in a few months. Thames Water have not properly looked after their pipes or managed leakage for years and years. We are reaping the whirlwind of that neglect. Or he would hate the annual 'Brixton Hill burst Water Main' event although this seems to be the first year it's not happened - maybe the event was cancelled by Thames Water
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Post by marlon101 on Dec 22, 2013 17:48:39 GMT
To be fair it is not the responsibility of the route, TfL or London Central. I have had an E Mail from TfL explaining that it is Thames Water who have caused the A12 to "fall to bits" (I'm not sure quite what failed but I assume a water main or similar has gone). If it means a deep excavation to rectify a broken mains then that can take days and days to deal with. If you hate the 108 because of a knackered water main then I trust you will also hate all the routes in Regent Street that are being diverted because of the *third* mains water main break in a few months. Thames Water have not properly looked after their pipes or managed leakage for years and years. We are reaping the whirlwind of that neglect. Or he would hate the annual 'Brixton Hill burst Water Main' event although this seems to be the first year it's not happened - maybe the event was cancelled by Thames Water Cue a flood of biblical proportions...
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2013 18:59:17 GMT
Or he would hate the annual 'Brixton Hill burst Water Main' event although this seems to be the first year it's not happened - maybe the event was cancelled by Thames Water Cue a flood of biblical proportions... The reason I hate the 108 is because it so unreliable I know this because I am a regular passenger on this awful route especially when I struggle to the bus stop with a heavy bag of shopping then find out there is no service and have to struggle back up the stairs again. I think that they should have diverted the 108 to Poplar all saints during this work at least to provide a cross river service. I am not the only one moaning about this. as well as being a bus enthusiast I am a bus user and relay on buses to visit family, go to work etc. I am allowed to have an opinion if I like and I don't give a toss what any one else thinks. plus I can remember London's buses pre privatisation and In my view it was so much better than it all is today. As I know a lot of you are younger than me and wont remember all that you only have today to go on, as I know that a lot of you don't like my posts. This is my view I don't care what you think!
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Post by Mokujin on Dec 22, 2013 19:23:39 GMT
Cue a flood of biblical proportions... The reason I hate the 108 is because it so unreliable I know this because I am a regular passenger on this awful route especially when I struggle to the bus stop with a heavy bag of shopping then find out there is no service and have to struggle back up the stairs again. I think that they should have diverted the 108 to Poplar all saints during this work at least to provide a cross river service. I am not the only one moaning about this. as well as being a bus enthusiast I am a bus user and relay on buses to visit family, go to work etc. I am allowed to have an opinion if I like and I don't give a toss what any one else thinks. plus I can remember London's buses pre privatisation and In my view it was so much better than it all is today. As I know a lot of you are younger than me and wont remember all that you only have today to go on, as I know that a lot of you don't like my posts. This is my view I don't care what you think! Maybe TFL found it better to run the 108 service between Lewisham and North Greenwich as from there, people could take the Jubilee line to get across the Thames and it would be more effective. A limited provided service is better than none.
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Post by DT 11 on Dec 22, 2013 19:40:08 GMT
Cue a flood of biblical proportions... The reason I hate the 108 is because it so unreliable I know this because I am a regular passenger on this awful route especially when I struggle to the bus stop with a heavy bag of shopping then find out there is no service and have to struggle back up the stairs again. I think that they should have diverted the 108 to Poplar all saints during this work at least to provide a cross river service. I am not the only one moaning about this. as well as being a bus enthusiast I am a bus user and relay on buses to visit family, go to work etc. I am allowed to have an opinion if I like and I don't give a toss what any one else thinks. plus I can remember London's buses pre privatisation and In my view it was so much better than it all is today. As I know a lot of you are younger than me and wont remember all that you only have today to go on, as I know that a lot of you don't like my posts. This is my view I don't care what you think! Route 108 is not exactly easy to operate nor is it completely unreliable, I do not agree. I find that buses on the route flow quite well, but often delayed due to traffic. I honestly think New Cross operate the route quite well due to the fact that on a daily basis has to deal-with traffic on the approach to the Blackwall Tunnel, there will not be a day when delays or curtailments do not happen on the 108 because of the Tunnel feature. I personally would not want the 108 to go to another operator as the service has settled at NX. The service may be slow moving in the peaks, but what I have noticed is there is always at least 1 or 2 buses standing in the bus stations at both ends and the route from what it seems to me has quite a lot of running time. I personally think though a couple of extra buses for the PM peak would be good for the route to prevent curtailments.
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Post by IanF on Dec 22, 2013 20:23:44 GMT
Cue a flood of biblical proportions... The reason I hate the 108 is because it so unreliable I know this because I am a regular passenger on this awful route especially when I struggle to the bus stop with a heavy bag of shopping then find out there is no service and have to struggle back up the stairs again. I think that they should have diverted the 108 to Poplar all saints during this work at least to provide a cross river service. I am not the only one moaning about this. as well as being a bus enthusiast I am a bus user and relay on buses to visit family, go to work etc. I am allowed to have an opinion if I like and I don't give a toss what any one else thinks. plus I can remember London's buses pre privatisation and In my view it was so much better than it all is today. As I know a lot of you are younger than me and wont remember all that you only have today to go on, as I know that a lot of you don't like my posts. This is my view I don't care what you think! We are all entitled our own views but stating you don't give a toss isn't the best way to integrate into the forum.
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Post by twobellstogo on Dec 22, 2013 20:25:17 GMT
Cue a flood of biblical proportions... The reason I hate the 108 is because it so unreliable I know this because I am a regular passenger on this awful route especially when I struggle to the bus stop with a heavy bag of shopping then find out there is no service and have to struggle back up the stairs again. I think that they should have diverted the 108 to Poplar all saints during this work at least to provide a cross river service. I am not the only one moaning about this. as well as being a bus enthusiast I am a bus user and relay on buses to visit family, go to work etc. I am allowed to have an opinion if I like and I don't give a toss what any one else thinks. plus I can remember London's buses pre privatisation and In my view it was so much better than it all is today. As I know a lot of you are younger than me and wont remember all that you only have today to go on, as I know that a lot of you don't like my posts. This is my view I don't care what you think! Ah, I can remember the 108 with Leyland Nationals from Poplar garage, when it started from Eltham rather than Lewisham. It was still a pain in the backside to operate then : any woe with the tunnel is going to screw the service up. It's going to eat up a lot of buses to provide a cross river service while the tunnel is inaccessible, so I think, on balance, providing a service for the more critical southern end only is probably the only sensible solution.
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Post by marlon101 on Dec 22, 2013 20:49:51 GMT
Cue a flood of biblical proportions... The reason I hate the 108 is because it so unreliable I know this because I am a regular passenger on this awful route especially when I struggle to the bus stop with a heavy bag of shopping then find out there is no service and have to struggle back up the stairs again. I think that they should have diverted the 108 to Poplar all saints during this work at least to provide a cross river service. I am not the only one moaning about this. as well as being a bus enthusiast I am a bus user and relay on buses to visit family, go to work etc. I am allowed to have an opinion if I like and I don't give a toss what any one else thinks. plus I can remember London's buses pre privatisation and In my view it was so much better than it all is today. As I know a lot of you are younger than me and wont remember all that you only have today to go on, as I know that a lot of you don't like my posts. This is my view I don't care what you think! Not necessary. A forum is not a great place to be if you are not interested in opinions... I do hope I had not provoked this post. My comment was merely pointing out the likelihood of a burst water main given the comment that one hasn't happened so far...
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Post by IanF on Dec 22, 2013 20:53:51 GMT
The reason I hate the 108 is because it so unreliable I know this because I am a regular passenger on this awful route especially when I struggle to the bus stop with a heavy bag of shopping then find out there is no service and have to struggle back up the stairs again. I think that they should have diverted the 108 to Poplar all saints during this work at least to provide a cross river service. I am not the only one moaning about this. as well as being a bus enthusiast I am a bus user and relay on buses to visit family, go to work etc. I am allowed to have an opinion if I like and I don't give a toss what any one else thinks. plus I can remember London's buses pre privatisation and In my view it was so much better than it all is today. As I know a lot of you are younger than me and wont remember all that you only have today to go on, as I know that a lot of you don't like my posts. This is my view I don't care what you think! Not necessary. A forum is not a great place to be if you are not interested in opinions... I do hope I had not provoked this post. My comment was merely pointing out the likelihood of a burst water main given the comment that one hasn't happened so far... Theres quite a few burst water mains around at the moment and I know that Greenwich now has one so expect delays around there this week.
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