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Post by ServerKing on Jan 8, 2015 17:22:33 GMT
What is interesting about your comments about winning / retaining routes is that it is clear that operators are trying to push the absolute limits of schedules and stripping away any contingency. There are too many instances of poor schedules and under resourced PVRs which get the operator a tender win and then have to be unravelled at the operator's cost to try to restore performance. The other surprise is how schedules are put together with badly allocated running time over route sections. The need to change the S4's schedule within days of introduction was a real surprise - makes me wonder what's going on with the process that allows that situation to arise. Surely both the operator and TfL review the new schedule before introduction to ensure it's robust and logically consistent compared to the schedule that is in use with the incumbent operator? I'm not saying it has to be identical but if an existing schedule broadly works then it is surely a decent guide as to sectional run times and overall trip times. The 3 is ridiculous - up to 6 in service buses can be parked up at the changeover point awaiting drivers, much to the chagrin of passengers and drivers on the 59/159. The Abellio Way for certain inner London high frequency routes certainly was, or maybe still is to turn buses at late notice to plug gaps in headways, then create extra "mileage duties" for times of day where its easier to run the service and recoup lost mileage! I'm so fed up with the late curtailments that I avoid using their routes where possible. I don't know about the west operation or Beddington, but certainly Walworth and Battersea operated routes. As for nights, schedules have been negotiated for some routes that see buses crawling along and drivers more willingly arguing with passengers over fares just to lose time! I never cease to be amazed at just how slowly the N343 moves! West London operations are fine, except a few of the buses are a bit on the old side (235 ) but the drivers arguing with passengers to lose time is incredible
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2015 17:40:39 GMT
Looking at TFL website, Those with season Bus Passes and 11-15 Zip cards get free travel on other service operated by TFL provided they are carrying their pass What about somebody who tops up to the daily bus cap - surely they should be able to use other services too
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2015 0:26:15 GMT
I worked for Arriva for 4 years, 1 year away from finally getting off the poo starter rate of £9.92. I had to leave the job (and the country) for family reasons. I came back to the UK 6 months later, applied to work at my local Arriva garage again, was told I would have to start on the PCV licence holder starter rate of £10.30 and I'd be stuck on it for another 5 years! Sod that!
Now, to the person who says "just apply to another garage! That's what competition is all about, yay to competition!"..... I did just that. I now work for Go-Ahead, I'm now working my way through their crappy starter rate of £11.37 an hour, not as low as Arriva, but they don't have unsociable hours, just a flat rate, so I'm no better off than when I was at Arriva. If I had gone to a different Go-Ahead garage, just down the road, I would have got better pay, as they are on a 'London Central' contract and I'm on a 'London General' contract! We wear the same Go-Ahead uniform, drive the same Go-Ahead buses but our pay is different. How f***ed up is that?!
The point here is, the companies are constantly looking at new ways to squeeze our pay and conditions. They all do it but in different ways. THAT IS THE COMPETITION, and we have to put an end to it by forcing them to discuss a fairer way forward and they can start competing in other areas.
When do we say Enough is Enough? Why, as a fully qualified London Bus Driver of 5 years, should I be treated like this?
At the moment I work one of my rest days most weeks, just to pay the bills. That amounts to 50 to 60 hours behind the wheel, it's too much, I struggle to sleep with anxiety, especially when you add into the mix the changing shift patterns, the crappy holiday entitlement, not to mention the worry about your family having to take a holiday without you as you couldn't find someone to swap days off with!
I've had enough, and I know plenty of other drivers feel the same. That is why most will be out in force on the picket lines come Tuesday.
As the late, great, Bob Crow said....
"If you fight, sometimes you win and sometimes you lose.
If you don't fight, YOU WILL ALWAYS LOSE!" (and look at how better off tube drivers and station staff are for it!)
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Post by Steve80 on Jan 10, 2015 3:21:28 GMT
I worked for Arriva for 4 years, 1 year away from finally getting off the sh*t starter rate of £9.92. I had to leave the job (and the country) for family reasons. I came back to the UK 6 months later, applied to work at my local Arriva garage again, was told I would have to start on the PCV licence holder starter rate of £10.30 and I'd be stuck on it for another 5 years! Sod that! Now, to the person who says "just apply to another garage! That's what competition is all about, yay to competition!"..... I did just that. I now work for Go-Ahead, I'm now working my way through their crappy starter rate of £11.37 an hour, not as low as Arriva, but they don't have unsociable hours, just a flat rate, so I'm no better off than when I was at Arriva. If I had gone to a different Go-Ahead garage, just down the road, I would have got better pay, as they are on a 'London Central' contract and I'm on a 'London General' contract! We wear the same Go-Ahead uniform, drive the same Go-Ahead buses but our pay is different. How f***ed up is that?! The point here is, the companies are constantly looking at new ways to squeeze our pay and conditions. They all do it but in different ways. THAT IS THE COMPETITION, and we have to put an end to it by forcing them to discuss a fairer way forward and they can start competing in other areas. When do we say Enough is Enough? Why, as a fully qualified London Bus Driver of 5 years, should I be treated like this? At the moment I work one of my rest days most weeks, just to pay the bills. That amounts to 50 to 60 hours behind the wheel, it's too much, I struggle to sleep with anxiety, especially when you add into the mix the changing shift patterns, the crappy holiday entitlement, not to mention the worry about your family having to take a holiday without you as you couldn't find someone to swap days off with! I've had enough, and I know plenty of other drivers feel the same. That is why most will be out in force on the picket lines come Tuesday. As the late, great, Bob Crow said.... "If you fight, sometimes you win and sometimes you lose. If you don't fight, YOU WILL ALWAYS LOSE!" (and look at how better off tube drivers and station staff are for it!) Great comment. To be honest, I thought Arriva drivers had some kind of pay increase after 2 years or so. Your comment about Go Ahead does sum up this whole process regarding the differential pay between each company. Spoke to a few drivers over the past few days. Most have said that they will be striking. I also spoken to one or two that said they will be working although they seemed very nervous when I mentioned it to them which leaves me with the impression that they might not even turn up for work. Also, I'm not sure as I will be joining the picket line as I'm going to have trouble getting to work. Apparently, TFL are threatening us drivers with withdrawal of our staff passes if we are on strike and we still use the staff travel facilities on the day. Also, nominees and dependents are also affected so if we are on strike and they use their passes on that day then our staff travel facilities are at risk
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Post by vjaska on Jan 10, 2015 4:00:31 GMT
Bob Crow great? I've heard it all now!!!
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Post by Steve80 on Jan 10, 2015 4:41:06 GMT
Yes, I think the T33 route was one of Metrobus's best performing routes yet they still lost it. Arriva have lost the 109 yet looking at the performance chart and especially when you compare it to the other routes, you may wonder how did they lose this route. My garage have had the 201 for a few months now yet whether I do the route, I'm always picking up my bus upto 15 minutes late. The last time I did this route in the evenings, which is a 30 minute service, my leader was constantly running over 20 minutes late. This was good for me as I was leaving 2-3 minutes late knowing that I wouldn't pick up so many passengers but I was still getting to the end point late as the running times are very poor and the recovery time was only 5-6 minutes. Now, whether I get the 201 I just simply exchange the route to another driver. I can also talk about the other routes like the 3. Got a letter stating they made a competitive bid so they had to move the route to another garage. The result is now driver changeovers are done mid route with maximum 45 minutes break so passengers are inconvenienced even further if the drivers is late for their meal relief. Others here have also mentioned abut the poor changeovers on the 172, 188 and 343. The C10 gets a fair bit of bad press too. Definitely agree with your other comments about the job getting harder. We even got brand new E200 buses that can barely move to a decent speed I like the job as well but only after yesterday in fact, when talking to a friend about prices of house and mortgages then I realised how poor the pay really is. Anyway, I have no intention of moving on just yet. I really need to drive those buses on the 109 What is interesting about your comments about winning / retaining routes is that it is clear that operators are trying to push the absolute limits of schedules and stripping away any contingency. There are too many instances of poor schedules and under resourced PVRs which get the operator a tender win and then have to be unravelled at the operator's cost to try to restore performance. The other surprise is how schedules are put together with badly allocated running time over route sections. The need to change the S4's schedule within days of introduction was a real surprise - makes me wonder what's going on with the process that allows that situation to arise. Surely both the operator and TfL review the new schedule before introduction to ensure it's robust and logically consistent compared to the schedule that is in use with the incumbent operator? I'm not saying it has to be identical but if an existing schedule broadly works then it is surely a decent guide as to sectional run times and overall trip times. Yes, the schedules on the S4 was appalling. At one stop I was 5-6 minutes early and then further along the route I was 10 minutes late. It was an utter shambles and when I called Ibus for details about the running times, I was basically told to do whatever I wanted! It didn't matter how early or how late I was running I would not get punished Obviously it was good for us drivers but for the passengers on the route it was very poor. I never got into great detail on how upset some of the passengers were. Constant looks from the passengers, and many questions about the long waits. I recall one journey when I was going along Worcester Road, just after Sutton Station (towards Roundshaw) and a pedestrian that was walking suddenly turned and look at my bus and then shook his head. It was obvious that he was waiting for my bus. Not sure why he didn't put his hand out to stop me. Maybe he was near home. A few other drivers on the route have also told me the grief they have got - passengers calling them on the other side of the road asking where the bus is and others moaning about the company. Anyway, it did make me wonder about the scheduling, as to who is in charge of such matters? Is it the company or is it TFL? Don't such staff check or proof read the times? Why did TFL approve the schedules when it clearly didn't work? I'm not sure how these things work but I thought that when companies bid for a route, they get some kind of guideline from TFL about how things should run such as the running times, curtailments, when the bus should run and at what frequencies, etc. You also mentioned about operators cutting costs and stripping away contingency plans. I wonder if this is the real reason why Arriva have lost so many routes? They probably said enough is enough and they are refusing to undercut anymore. If that's the case then hopefully all the other companies will follow suit. I also noticed how companies are increasing the PVR of their routes before when a tender is due
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Post by Nathan on Jan 10, 2015 6:52:01 GMT
As the late, great, Bob Crow said....
"If you fight, sometimes you win and sometimes you lose.
If you don't fight, YOU WILL ALWAYS LOSE!" (and look at how better off tube drivers and station staff are for it!) After many years of striking (and probably more intentions of striking in the near future), yeah I guess they are better off... I hate strikes. They annoy me so much. Okay sure, if the message gets across and changes in the industry are made then who is to say it will stop there? I highly doubt that bus drivers are just going to stop when their pay is at £15 per hour. They'll just keep striking until they get £17...£18...or even £20 per hour. I mean come on...if you have the opportunity to get more money, who the hell in their right mind is going to say No? Let's face it guys...people are GREEDY. They'll do whatever they can to get what THEY want without the thought of anyone else who suffers (in this case, the commuter). DISCLAIMER: I am NOT attacking anyone on the forum who is a part of the industry. I am simply expressing my own views here. I don't want anyone getting the wrong idea.
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Post by snoggle on Jan 10, 2015 11:22:47 GMT
Yes, the schedules on the S4 was appalling. At one stop I was 5-6 minutes early and then further along the route I was 10 minutes late. It was an utter shambles and when I called Ibus for details about the running times, I was basically told to do whatever I wanted! It didn't matter how early or how late I was running I would not get punished Obviously it was good for us drivers but for the passengers on the route it was very poor. I never got into great detail on how upset some of the passengers were. Constant looks from the passengers, and many questions about the long waits. I recall one journey when I was going along Worcester Road, just after Sutton Station (towards Roundshaw) and a pedestrian that was walking suddenly turned and look at my bus and then shook his head. It was obvious that he was waiting for my bus. Not sure why he didn't put his hand out to stop me. Maybe he was near home. A few other drivers on the route have also told me the grief they have got - passengers calling them on the other side of the road asking where the bus is and others moaning about the company. Anyway, it did make me wonder about the scheduling, as to who is in charge of such matters? Is it the company or is it TFL? Don't such staff check or proof read the times? Why did TFL approve the schedules when it clearly didn't work? I'm not sure how these things work but I thought that when companies bid for a route, they get some kind of guideline from TFL about how things should run such as the running times, curtailments, when the bus should run and at what frequencies, etc. You also mentioned about operators cutting costs and stripping away contingency plans. I wonder if this is the real reason why Arriva have lost so many routes? They probably said enough is enough and they are refusing to undercut anymore. If that's the case then hopefully all the other companies will follow suit. I also noticed how companies are increasing the PVR of their routes before when a tender is due It is clearly down to the bus company to provide a schedule as that underpins how many drivers and vehicles are needed and the cost of the bid. TfL specify start times, end times, frequencies, when frequencies should build up or fall back etc. TfL will also have a view as to what the running time should be by section and overall. There is also the track record of the previous operator on a route (unless a route is brand new). If I was going to bid to win an existing route I'd want to monitor and analyse how the route runs every day of the week right across the day. I'd have people on the buses or out and about looking to see how things run so I could put in a robust bid with supporting evidence for the choices I'd made in producing the schedule. I understand that TfL may well negotiate with the winning bidder to fine tune a schedule which is why I am so surprised that the S4 schedule was such a shambles and had to be changed so quickly. IME of looking at old and new timetables when routes change companies it is rarely the case that you get massive changes in times unless TfL have changed the spec. When I used to take the 123 about 0630 in the morning the times with First and with Arriva were barely any different - nothing more than 1 or 2 mins difference and the headway was no different despite it being the time when journey times increase so you can get odd headways. Going back to the S4 a look at the performance charts for the route shows a very good level for mileage - consistently around 99% - and pretty much on or above target for on time departures (just the occasional dip presumably due to roadworks). If I was bidding that would tell me that Quality Line's schedule was pretty much spot on as a starting point.
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Post by YY13VKP on Jan 10, 2015 13:38:27 GMT
I use the 466 on my commute to and from school, will TC drivers be affected in this strike? If thats the case then i might have to use the train on that day
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Jan 10, 2015 14:04:59 GMT
I use the 466 on my commute to and from school, will TC drivers be affected in this strike? If thats the case then i might have to use the train on that day Yes, Arriva London South are going on strike IIRC. Judging by what TFL have said services shall be patchy. I think it depends on the usage and status of the route. I personally know sod all about routes down there but I think busier routes shall be getting a priority for service. Like how the W14 wasn't operating on the day of the TT strike yet the 25 was. The best bet would be to wake up earlier than usual on the morning and check LVF to see how frequent the services are operating and see if it's adequate enough for you to manage it to school on time.
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Post by rambo on Jan 10, 2015 14:29:42 GMT
I worked for Arriva for 4 years, 1 year away from finally getting off the sh*t starter rate of £9.92. I had to leave the job (and the country) for family reasons. I came back to the UK 6 months later, applied to work at my local Arriva garage again, was told I would have to start on the PCV licence holder starter rate of £10.30 and I'd be stuck on it for another 5 years! Sod that! Now, to the person who says "just apply to another garage! That's what competition is all about, yay to competition!"..... I did just that. I now work for Go-Ahead, I'm now working my way through their crappy starter rate of £11.37 an hour, not as low as Arriva, but they don't have unsociable hours, just a flat rate, so I'm no better off than when I was at Arriva. If I had gone to a different Go-Ahead garage, just down the road, I would have got better pay, as they are on a 'London Central' contract and I'm on a 'London General' contract! We wear the same Go-Ahead uniform, drive the same Go-Ahead buses but our pay is different. How f***ed up is that?! The point here is, the companies are constantly looking at new ways to squeeze our pay and conditions. They all do it but in different ways. THAT IS THE COMPETITION, and we have to put an end to it by forcing them to discuss a fairer way forward and they can start competing in other areas. When do we say Enough is Enough? Why, as a fully qualified London Bus Driver of 5 years, should I be treated like this? At the moment I work one of my rest days most weeks, just to pay the bills. That amounts to 50 to 60 hours behind the wheel, it's too much, I struggle to sleep with anxiety, especially when you add into the mix the changing shift patterns, the crappy holiday entitlement, not to mention the worry about your family having to take a holiday without you as you couldn't find someone to swap days off with! I've had enough, and I know plenty of other drivers feel the same. That is why most will be out in force on the picket lines come Tuesday. As the late, great, Bob Crow said.... "If you fight, sometimes you win and sometimes you lose. If you don't fight, YOU WILL ALWAYS LOSE!" (and look at how better off tube drivers and station staff are for it!) Spot on! All we want are decent and fair T+C's.
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Post by lonmark on Jan 10, 2015 15:24:59 GMT
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Jan 10, 2015 15:53:00 GMT
Someone else share it this picture on my FB. So thought show this to you all. For some reason, drivers on the 10 are earning 1p more than on the 9. I also didn't know that Tower Transit operated the C2 But other than London United, different operators seem to be paying similar across all of their routes. If they are trying to get all the pay rates equal, then it won't be an easy task and I am pretty sure that there will be a pretty big division in the topic among drivers.
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Jan 10, 2015 15:58:30 GMT
Looking at a news article: www.lbc.co.uk/tfl-announces-patchy-services-to-run-during-strike-102988TFL do state services should be patchy, but have also stated that services should be running as normal. So my prediction would be that the majority of drivers are not striking and the outcome will probably be pretty similar to the one displayed by the TT one earlier
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Post by vjaska on Jan 10, 2015 16:43:34 GMT
I use the 466 on my commute to and from school, will TC drivers be affected in this strike? If thats the case then i might have to use the train on that day Every operator except Sullivan Buses, Arriva Kent Thameside, Arriva The Shires & Quality Line are striking. I've no issue with bus drivers striking only because it's not often they do unlike tube drivers and they do deserve a pay rise. My only issue is people judging drivers who decide to work during the strike, calling them traitors - no one has the right to judge regardless of what side your on and what opinion you hold.
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