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Post by marlon101 on Nov 14, 2015 12:35:15 GMT
Working in one of the,public sector organisations mentioned, I can say the following... By 2020 , police won't be turning up to code red calls to disturbances on buses , unless someone is being seriously injured. Fare disputes, drunks falling asleep and refusing to get off, pick pocketing , forget it. Crime will soar. TfL budget , will we see retraction of cross border services ? How can TfL proceed with any consultations and extensions now given this loss of money ? Or are they spending whilst they still can ? Is it time to look at deregulation in London ? The French model for example, is intensive urban services and "on-demand" services for rural areas. Would it be better for TfL to contract out networks of routes and give more power to operating companies to design the routes and frequencies ? Tendering individual routes must be expensive for all involved I particularly like this idea of tendering networks of routes. Quite apart from potentially helping with funding shortfalls, it could/should lead to more joined up thinking in operational matters, where money could be saved off-peak by considering the timetables across routes I completely agree with Snowman's proposals which should make a genuine dent in the shortfall and all have a sense of fairness to them. There will always be an argument against cuts but I haven't heard a logical criticism of a cut which persuades me that we must look elsewhere. I'd suggest there are easy frequency cuts to be made. Routes like the 229 and 269 carry fresh air early in the morning, evening, Sundays etc.
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Post by marlon101 on Nov 14, 2015 13:31:28 GMT
I particularly like this idea of tendering networks of routes. Quite apart from potentially helping with funding shortfalls, it could/should lead to more joined up thinking in operational matters, where money could be saved off-peak by considering the timetables across routes I completely agree with Snowman's proposals which should make a genuine dent in the shortfall and all have a sense of fairness to them. There will always be an argument against cuts but I haven't heard a logical criticism of a cut which persuades me that we must look elsewhere. I'd suggest there are easy frequency cuts to be made. Routes like the 229 and 269 carry fresh air early in the morning, evening, Sundays etc. OK so if I write to the Mayor and Mike Brown at TfL and recommend that the 229 bus runs hourly between 1000 and 1500 and the 269 only runs in the peaks with no Sunday service you'd be happy about that? After all we don't want to be carrying fresh air [1] do we? I'll also propose that the B11, B12, B13 and B14 are withdrawn with immediate effect because they're just little buses running round side roads and everyone in Bexley and Bromley boroughs have cars anywhere. I'd argue London's buses carry a d*mn sight less "fresh air" than many deregulated services elsewhere in the country. That's the problem with providing transport - the output becomes instantly perishable. Once that seat has gone past the stop and no one's waiting it doesn't come back and it can't be stored somewhere. That's why people, often taxi drivers, moan about "empty buses blocking streets" and yet they're also running a service that is perishable. Taxis often sit on ranks for hours or have to run back empty having taken someone somewhere. Even their "instant hail" capability doesn't stop the perishability of that taxi capacity. Transport is notoriously difficult to get right in terms of understanding the demand and what service to supply and at what point you step across the magic line where the service level brings forth loads of demand or the reverse where you cut it back and then have a large irreversible drop in demand which undermines the route's viability. My concern is that if TfL are pushed into a regime of cuts to off peak, evening and Sunday services that you send completely the wrong message to people who take advantage of the largely "turn up and go" nature of the bus network. If frequencies fall then connections from trains and tubes become more difficult and overall journey times lengthen. You then find people stop using trains and tubes because the network overall ceases to function for people. That's why you have subsidy - to keep public transport as a viable alternative to private transport. This is the aspect our moronic Chancellor does not understand. No point in building geewhizz tunnels and shiny trains if the service overall doesn't work for people. TfL will not be able to pay back the borrowing for Crossrail just off the back of peak time commuter revenues. They need thousands of bums on seats every single hour that those trains run - right along the route and that brings in some interesting challenges for TfL when you start talking about demand from Slough, Shenfield, Brentwood, Maidenhead and Reading. What deals will be done to make deregulated services in those places work far better than now to give a comprehensive service to Crossrail stations? It also means that buses still need to play an important role in London to get people to and from Crossrail conveninently. Sorry to go on but this sort of argument / daft govt policy makes me very cross. [1] otherwise known as providing a convenient public service that is sufficiently attractive that people use it instead of using private transport or not travelling at all. No need to apologise for the lengthy reply, but I'd like to mount a response from two different angles: 1. I have been mistaken slightly. I am not inherently opposed to buses carrying fresh air as part of a thorough and comprehensive bus network that is suitably attractive to the public. However, the two routes I am most intimately familiar with, carry too much fresh air, and I am sure it is true of many routes in the outer zones. There are times when four buses an hour run when three would do, when peak time frequencies extend far beyond the existence of any shoulder peak. We see six buses an hour out until 7/8pm when it simply isn't necessary. While cuts would be far from ideal, taking a few buses off of the road for a few hours a day, and a bus or two out of the schedule completely would add up across routes. I remain genuinely convinced that there is a need for a "right-sizing" of the network. That should not be misconstrued as perfectly matching passenger numbers with demand, but in this age of easily identifiable bus timing information, several routes should be scaled back. 2. I accept your arguments that we would like people on public transport rather than in cars. Policy should not treat these two modes of travel in isolation. In this age of austerity, where I am largely in agreement with the government policy of transferring the burden away from the central taxpayer, the cost should be transferred to the end user. This is part of a much larger economic jigsaw. We certainly want people on public transport, rather than in their cars, and we can continue to economically incentivise this and pass on the costs of running public transport back, in part, onto the travelling public. No doubt, you'll throw back at me the broader benefits to society of people travelling freely etc. etc. so the real question should be, how much of a subsidy should the taxpayer being provided? I'd be interested to know what the cost/benefit ratio of the current size of the London bus network is.
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Post by Red Dragon on Nov 14, 2015 13:59:08 GMT
How much would they save by scrapping the free kids travel? I believe the free travel are part subsidised by higher fares for Adults. If they did scrap it, then they would also save money from running the extra 100 buses they run for school journeys. It has been about 10 years of free travel, and I think it has been successful in terms of saving unnecessary car journeys for school runs as well as giving children more choice of schools. Many children/young people have also continued to use public transport instead of looking to get a car. If they scrapped the 616... W6s would be hell
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Post by londonbusboy on Nov 14, 2015 21:31:17 GMT
How much would they save by scrapping the free kids travel? I believe the free travel are part subsidised by higher fares for Adults. If they did scrap it, then they would also save money from running the extra 100 buses they run for school journeys. It has been about 10 years of free travel, and I think it has been successful in terms of saving unnecessary car journeys for school runs as well as giving children more choice of schools. Many children/young people have also continued to use public transport instead of looking to get a car. I can see the point about it freeing up the roads a bit but they could even impose restrictions on the free passes
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Post by marlon101 on Nov 14, 2015 21:46:28 GMT
I believe the free travel are part subsidised by higher fares for Adults. If they did scrap it, then they would also save money from running the extra 100 buses they run for school journeys. It has been about 10 years of free travel, and I think it has been successful in terms of saving unnecessary car journeys for school runs as well as giving children more choice of schools. Many children/young people have also continued to use public transport instead of looking to get a car. I can see the point about it freeing up the roads a bit but they could even impose restrictions on the free passes I remain firmly in favour of free travel times, in term time only. Some of the school bus routes are hideously expensive to run, because they require the ownership & maintenance of a bus solely for the route, given that they're normally required when the full PVR is out on the run.
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Post by vjaska on Nov 14, 2015 22:32:14 GMT
I can see the point about it freeing up the roads a bit but they could even impose restrictions on the free passes I remain firmly in favour of free travel times, in term time only. Some of the school bus routes are hideously expensive to run, because they require the ownership & maintenance of a bus solely for the route, given that they're normally required when the full PVR is out on the run. Not to mention one or two school routes hardly carry anyone *cough* 690 *cough*
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Post by marlon101 on Nov 15, 2015 12:10:31 GMT
I remain firmly in favour of free travel times, in term time only. Some of the school bus routes are hideously expensive to run, because they require the ownership & maintenance of a bus solely for the route, given that they're normally required when the full PVR is out on the run. Not to mention one or two school routes hardly carry anyone *cough* 690 *cough* Don't ask me which one, but one of the Crown Woods buses runs *twice* - with an early sweep at 0730. Half of that school doesn't turn up on a daily basis, let alone early!? Carries about three people.
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Post by Connor on Nov 15, 2015 12:30:26 GMT
Not to mention one or two school routes hardly carry anyone *cough* 690 *cough* Don't ask me which one, but one of the Crown Woods buses runs *twice* - with an early sweep at 0730. Half of that school doesn't turn up on a daily basis, let alone early!? Carries about three people. Well that's definitely not the 658! Probably the 624, and I agree it's never busy, certainly not as much as the 658.
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Post by vjaska on Nov 15, 2015 14:17:09 GMT
Not to mention one or two school routes hardly carry anyone *cough* 690 *cough* Don't ask me which one, but one of the Crown Woods buses runs *twice* - with an early sweep at 0730. Half of that school doesn't turn up on a daily basis, let alone early!? Carries about three people. Everytime I've spotted the 690 since the old 689 was withdrawn, there has never been more than 5 schoolkids on except one occasion a few weeks back where there was about 10 passengers on board including two non schoolkid passengers which I've never ever seen on the 690. There would be far more use by renumbering it and introducing it into the standard network as the links it would provide would be useful.
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Post by wivenswold on Nov 16, 2015 12:07:41 GMT
With these cuts coming up. How long before I see a Roast Master at a music festival? A modern take on the old Routemaster that's converted into a cafe selling tea and cakes that turns up to most of the events I go to.
I can offer Boris Burger and chips, hot sardines, burble and squeak and overcooked white elephant for the menu (subject to availability).
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Post by snoggle on Nov 16, 2015 12:38:00 GMT
With these cuts coming up. How long before I see a Roast Master at a music festival? A modern take on the old Routemaster that's converted into a cafe selling tea and cakes that turns up to most of the events I go to. I can offer Boris Burger and chips, hot sardines, burble and squeak and overcooked white elephant for the menu (subject to availability). You forgot "warm waffle" as a dessert. Not my photo but on the same theme. Butty Bus
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Post by sid on Nov 16, 2015 19:13:04 GMT
With these cuts coming up. How long before I see a Roast Master at a music festival? A modern take on the old Routemaster that's converted into a cafe selling tea and cakes that turns up to most of the events I go to. I can offer Boris Burger and chips, hot sardines, burble and squeak and overcooked white elephant for the menu (subject to availability). Not anytime soon!
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Post by sid on Nov 16, 2015 19:19:27 GMT
Rather than cut services, would be more practical to replace the older buses less frequently? More often than not these buses are cascaded around the country, and keep on operating for other bus divisions. The argument against that would be that they cost more to maintain and it's far more cost effective to move them onto lower mileage work
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Post by sid on Nov 16, 2015 19:41:01 GMT
How much would they save by scrapping the free kids travel? I believe the free travel are part subsidised by higher fares for Adults. If they did scrap it, then they would also save money from running the extra 100 buses they run for school journeys. It has been about 10 years of free travel, and I think it has been successful in terms of saving unnecessary car journeys for school runs as well as giving children more choice of schools. Many children/young people have also continued to use public transport instead of looking to get a car. I've not noticed any reduction in school run traffic, just look how much quieter the roads are during half term.
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Post by sid on Nov 16, 2015 23:58:03 GMT
Working in one of the,public sector organisations mentioned, I can say the following... By 2020 , police won't be turning up to code red calls to disturbances on buses , unless someone is being seriously injured. Fare disputes, drunks falling asleep and refusing to get off, pick pocketing , forget it. Crime will soar. TfL budget , will we see retraction of cross border services ? How can TfL proceed with any consultations and extensions now given this loss of money ? Or are they spending whilst they still can ? Is it time to look at deregulation in London ? The French model for example, is intensive urban services and "on-demand" services for rural areas. Would it be better for TfL to contract out networks of routes and give more power to operating companies to design the routes and frequencies ? Tendering individual routes must be expensive for all involved I particularly like this idea of tendering networks of routes. Quite apart from potentially helping with funding shortfalls, it could/should lead to more joined up thinking in operational matters, where money could be saved off-peak by considering the timetables across routes I completely agree with Snowman's proposals which should make a genuine dent in the shortfall and all have a sense of fairness to them. There will always be an argument against cuts but I haven't heard a logical criticism of a cut which persuades me that we must look elsewhere. I'd suggest there are easy frequency cuts to be made. Routes like the 229 and 269 carry fresh air early in the morning, evening, Sundays etc. I wouldn't disagree about the 229 and 269 in fact during the evening only one of these routes is really needed between Bexleyheath and Sidcup. The same could be said about the 137 and 417 between Streatham Hill and Clapham Common and starting the N137 about 21.00 would seem a logical move.
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