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Post by sid on Nov 23, 2015 20:29:21 GMT
I want to take it away from all children, and that includes my own grandchildren before anyone calls me a heartless g*t! It's something that should never have been introduced in the first place, it just encourages this something for nothing mentality that seems so prevalent in todays society and they resent having to pay when they're older. It's a luxury that we cannot justify in the current economic climate. And I agree with you about the anti social behavior problems, I know somebody will say not all kids behave like that but there is no getting away from the fact a significant proportion do. I wouldn't even call it a significant proportion, it's more like 5%. You do need to consider that all families will not be as well off as others and simply cannot afford to send their child by bus, even if it is 75p per day.Children have to attend school for 200 days per year. Let's say that they use one bus to get to school, however most of them probably use more than one. Over a year that equates to £300. And £600 if they use 4 buses etc. £300 could feed a whole family for about two months. If you feel that children should get free travel scrapped then elderly people should as well, as they are dependents as well when used to calculate the dependency ratio of the country. Also as you refer to the economy, should free travel be scrapped for a lot of children then you will get many that probably will be prevented from attending schools of their choice, this decreases motivation for them especially should they be a very smart kid that cannot afford to go to a school which can cater for their abilities. This means that less children leave with better qualifications and that means that you will end up with much less skilled workers compared to what you potentially could have got. This isn't good for the economy is it? I think it's rather more than 5% but anyway why should anybody expect free bus travel anymore than they would expect free bread at the supermarket? Free travel for the elderly is somewhat different, it could be argued that they've paid throughout their working lives and of course generally speaking they don't behave in an anti social way on public transport.
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Nov 23, 2015 20:47:03 GMT
I wouldn't even call it a significant proportion, it's more like 5%. You do need to consider that all families will not be as well off as others and simply cannot afford to send their child by bus, even if it is 75p per day.Children have to attend school for 200 days per year. Let's say that they use one bus to get to school, however most of them probably use more than one. Over a year that equates to £300. And £600 if they use 4 buses etc. £300 could feed a whole family for about two months. If you feel that children should get free travel scrapped then elderly people should as well, as they are dependents as well when used to calculate the dependency ratio of the country. Also as you refer to the economy, should free travel be scrapped for a lot of children then you will get many that probably will be prevented from attending schools of their choice, this decreases motivation for them especially should they be a very smart kid that cannot afford to go to a school which can cater for their abilities. This means that less children leave with better qualifications and that means that you will end up with much less skilled workers compared to what you potentially could have got. This isn't good for the economy is it? I think it's rather more than 5% but anyway why should anybody expect free bus travel anymore than they would expect free bread at the supermarket? Free travel for the elderly is somewhat different, it could be argued that they've paid throughout their working lives and of course generally speaking they don't behave in an anti social way on public transport. But generally speaking children don't misbehave on public transport either. You need to remember far more children use the bus. You generally only ever notice the noisy ones at the back. Many people don't generally notice the much higher number of quiet children sitting down just minding their own business. How many times I have been insulted by elderly people is pretty high to be honest. Especially when they think they can get their way just by shouting at us. I was once pushed out of the way by an elderly man while trying to get on the bus and the driver did apologise to me on the elderly man's behalf although he didn't need to. (The driver got himself a nice thank you via TfL from me). I do agree that many elderly people would have paid through their working lives, but in order for this to come full circle children would need an education to take up these jobs which have been left when people retire. This then brings me back to the point that a lot of children will be missing out from the education that they deserve as they wouldn't be able to afford to go to a particular school as they wouldn't be able to pay for the bus without their free travel.
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Post by ServerKing on Nov 23, 2015 21:16:30 GMT
I think it's rather more than 5% but anyway why should anybody expect free bus travel anymore than they would expect free bread at the supermarket? Free travel for the elderly is somewhat different, it could be argued that they've paid throughout their working lives and of course generally speaking they don't behave in an anti social way on public transport. But generally speaking children don't misbehave on public transport either. You need to remember far more children use the bus. You generally only ever notice the noisy ones at the back. Many people don't generally notice the much higher number of quiet children sitting down just minding their own business. How many times I have been insulted by elderly people is pretty high to be honest. Especially when they think they can get their way just by shouting at us. I was once pushed out of the way by an elderly man while trying to get on the bus and the driver did apologise to me on the elderly man's behalf although he didn't need to. (The driver got himself a nice thank you via TfL from me). I do agree that many elderly people would have paid through their working lives, but in order for this to come full circle children would need an education to take up these jobs which have been left when people retire. This then brings me back to the point that a lot of children will be missing out from the education that they deserve as they wouldn't be able to afford to go to a particular school as they wouldn't be able to pay for the bus without their free travel. I love it when old people drive at your feet at full pelt in their electric mobility karts, or even better, take to the road and thrash them at 10 miles an hour Leon was taken to task on LBC over the catastrophic failure and cost of the cycle highways, having in some places removed bus lanes, forcing buses to crawl with everyone else on clogged roads. Nick Ferrari also asked him how Ambulance and other emergency vehicles would be able to get through such traffic if anything happened... not much response except more waffle justifying it. He's a puppet of the Mayor, so when the next one says remove them, expect a U-turn and statements on why they should go...
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Post by sid on Nov 23, 2015 21:28:52 GMT
But generally speaking children don't misbehave on public transport either. You need to remember far more children use the bus. You generally only ever notice the noisy ones at the back. Many people don't generally notice the much higher number of quiet children sitting down just minding their own business. How many times I have been insulted by elderly people is pretty high to be honest. Especially when they think they can get their way just by shouting at us. I was once pushed out of the way by an elderly man while trying to get on the bus and the driver did apologise to me on the elderly man's behalf although he didn't need to. (The driver got himself a nice thank you via TfL from me). I do agree that many elderly people would have paid through their working lives, but in order for this to come full circle children would need an education to take up these jobs which have been left when people retire. This then brings me back to the point that a lot of children will be missing out from the education that they deserve as they wouldn't be able to afford to go to a particular school as they wouldn't be able to pay for the bus without their free travel. I love it when old people drive at your feet at full pelt in their electric mobility karts, or even better, take to the road and thrash them at 10 miles an hour Leon was taken to task on LBC over the catastrophic failure and cost of the cycle highways, having in some places removed bus lanes, forcing buses to crawl with everyone else on clogged roads. Nick Ferrari also asked him how Ambulance and other emergency vehicles would be able to get through such traffic if anything happened... not much response except more waffle justifying it. He's a puppet of the Mayor, so when the next one says remove them, expect a U-turn and statements on why they should go... I heard most of it and some pretty stupid questions really, I mean it's not as though emergency vehicles aren't delayed by traffic congestion already is it?
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Post by sid on Nov 23, 2015 21:55:44 GMT
I think it's rather more than 5% but anyway why should anybody expect free bus travel anymore than they would expect free bread at the supermarket? Free travel for the elderly is somewhat different, it could be argued that they've paid throughout their working lives and of course generally speaking they don't behave in an anti social way on public transport. But generally speaking children don't misbehave on public transport either. You need to remember far more children use the bus. You generally only ever notice the noisy ones at the back. Many people don't generally notice the much higher number of quiet children sitting down just minding their own business. How many times I have been insulted by elderly people is pretty high to be honest. Especially when they think they can get their way just by shouting at us. I was once pushed out of the way by an elderly man while trying to get on the bus and the driver did apologise to me on the elderly man's behalf although he didn't need to. (The driver got himself a nice thank you via TfL from me). I do agree that many elderly people would have paid through their working lives, but in order for this to come full circle children would need an education to take up these jobs which have been left when people retire. This then brings me back to the point that a lot of children will be missing out from the education that they deserve as they wouldn't be able to afford to go to a particular school as they wouldn't be able to pay for the bus without their free travel. Well at the risk of sounding like the pantomime villain as far as I'm concerned if they can't afford to travel to a particular school then tough, that's just life I'm afraid and there's always the option of cycling if they are determined enough.
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Post by vjaska on Nov 23, 2015 22:36:05 GMT
But generally speaking children don't misbehave on public transport either. You need to remember far more children use the bus. You generally only ever notice the noisy ones at the back. Many people don't generally notice the much higher number of quiet children sitting down just minding their own business. How many times I have been insulted by elderly people is pretty high to be honest. Especially when they think they can get their way just by shouting at us. I was once pushed out of the way by an elderly man while trying to get on the bus and the driver did apologise to me on the elderly man's behalf although he didn't need to. (The driver got himself a nice thank you via TfL from me). I do agree that many elderly people would have paid through their working lives, but in order for this to come full circle children would need an education to take up these jobs which have been left when people retire. This then brings me back to the point that a lot of children will be missing out from the education that they deserve as they wouldn't be able to afford to go to a particular school as they wouldn't be able to pay for the bus without their free travel. Well at the risk of sounding like the pantomime villain as far as I'm concerned if they can't afford to travel to a particular school then tough, that's just life I'm afraid and there's always the option of cycling if they are determined enough. Take it you never lived on the breadline before judging by your response?
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Post by sid on Nov 23, 2015 22:47:02 GMT
Well at the risk of sounding like the pantomime villain as far as I'm concerned if they can't afford to travel to a particular school then tough, that's just life I'm afraid and there's always the option of cycling if they are determined enough. Take it you never lived on the breadline before judging by your response? I don't see how that's relevant. The fact is that the bus network cannot cope with the demand, particularly in the morning peak.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2015 23:04:27 GMT
vjaska makes a good point. That's why we have the generous benefits system that we do. Trouble is, it gets taken advantage of and even abused en mass, then other people (especially tax payers) can't help but question the generosity.
Maybe with the reduced fare system there should be a way for school students to apply for free travel, and be awarded it throughout the ages of 11-16 based on their scenario. For example: if you live within walking distance of your school, no free travel. However, I can already see problems, such as Oysters with this free travel advantage being stolen by other students.
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Post by rambo on Nov 23, 2015 23:18:28 GMT
As many of you know, I now drive in essex. Schoolchildren out here have to pay, and I must admit, they all do with no trouble at all. It's a breath of fresh air.........
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Post by thesquirrels on Nov 23, 2015 23:35:37 GMT
The beauty of Oyster of course is that if it were stolen then a phonecall would be enough to have it deactivated. Not that this would prevent one kid stealing an oyster from another, sometimes kids are just [***ts] like that.
So far as I remember from my school days, where buses would routinely refuse point blank to stop for us, kids slipping in through the exit doors, handing passes through windows for a second showing to the driver, windows etched and seat backs scratched to merry hell, fireworks being thrown through the exit doors into the lower saloon, fireworks let off on the upper deck, at least one stabbing.. oh, yes, we were all paying for our travel at that time - this was the 149/259/279 corridor around the turn of the millennium. I still use the routes along that corridor regularly and the standard of behaviour has improved dramatically. I think CCTV and the ability to pin a criminal act to a face/zip card has done more for discipline on London Buses at school times than any attempt to 'price off' the troublemakers would. Clusters of demob-happy schoolkids will always be noisy and, yes, can be inconsiderate, but the level of anti-social behaviour is comparatively low.
I will admit that my own experience was probably as bad as it ever got anywhere. If I ever got the W3 or 171A/341 to school for whatever reason the standard of behaviour was always better.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2015 23:43:37 GMT
The beauty of Oyster of course is that if it were stolen then a phonecall would be enough to have it deactivated. Not that this would prevent one kid stealing an oyster from another, sometimes kids are just [***ts] like that. So far as I remember from my school days, where buses would routinely refuse point blank to stop for us, kids slipping in through the exit doors, handing passes through windows for a second showing to the driver, windows etched and seat backs scratched to merry hell, fireworks being thrown through the exit doors into the lower saloon, fireworks let off on the upper deck, at least one stabbing.. oh, yes, we were all paying for our travel at that time - this was the 149/259/279 corridor around the turn of the millennium. I still use the routes along that corridor regularly and the standard of behaviour has improved dramatically. I think CCTV and the ability to pin a criminal act to a face/zip card has done more for discipline on London Buses at school times than any attempt to 'price off' the troublemakers would. Clusters of demob-happy schoolkids will always be noisy and, yes, can be inconsiderate, but the level of anti-social behaviour is comparatively low. I will admit that my own experience was probably as bad as it ever got anywhere. If I ever got the W3 or 171A/341 to school for whatever reason the standard of behaviour was always better. Oh god. I'm not too crazy about the present, but I'm certainly glad we don't have that level of anti-social behaviour anymore. Sometimes I think these kids just need a kick up the arse and the rest will sort itself out.
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Post by vjaska on Nov 24, 2015 0:08:39 GMT
As many of you know, I now drive in essex. Schoolchildren out here have to pay, and I must admit, they all do with no trouble at all. It's a breath of fresh air......... Most of Essex is extremely different to vast swathes of London, it is incomparable.
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Post by thesquirrels on Nov 24, 2015 1:01:47 GMT
As many of you know, I now drive in essex. Schoolchildren out here have to pay, and I must admit, they all do with no trouble at all. It's a breath of fresh air......... Most of Essex is extremely different to vast swathes of London, it is incomparable. I'd mark Thurrock out as the exception to this but, even then, with a few exceptional pockets, you just don't have those high deprivation index scores common in London boroughs. (For now, anyway, ask me again in ten years). The council there does operate a means-tested reduced/free concessionary pass scheme for years 7-11 pupils - some authorities in the Home Counties are more generous with their schemes than others but Thurrock's is quite reasonable.
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Post by ServerKing on Nov 24, 2015 6:03:44 GMT
The beauty of Oyster of course is that if it were stolen then a phonecall would be enough to have it deactivated. Not that this would prevent one kid stealing an oyster from another, sometimes kids are just [***ts] like that. So far as I remember from my school days, where buses would routinely refuse point blank to stop for us, kids slipping in through the exit doors, handing passes through windows for a second showing to the driver, windows etched and seat backs scratched to merry hell, fireworks being thrown through the exit doors into the lower saloon, fireworks let off on the upper deck, at least one stabbing.. oh, yes, we were all paying for our travel at that time - this was the 149/259/279 corridor around the turn of the millennium. I still use the routes along that corridor regularly and the standard of behaviour has improved dramatically. I was living in Hackney around that time, but I remember wanting to take a ride on those newfangled DLPs appearing on the 149 to see what all the fuss was about... but kids behaviour has improved somewhat as they are distracted by apps and the like... they can at least upload a fight or stabbing to Vine now some behaviours you will never end - kids forcing their way on thru exit doors when its busy on the 41 will be with us for life I miss the hustle and bustle of North London, it's way too quiet in Brentford. Aside from the odd mass brawl involving Somali girls outside Brentford School, nothing happens much. Most of these kids have mum or dad pick them up in the Galaxy or X6 and a few queue patiently for the 195
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Post by sid on Nov 24, 2015 6:05:33 GMT
As many of you know, I now drive in essex. Schoolchildren out here have to pay, and I must admit, they all do with no trouble at all. It's a breath of fresh air......... Most of Essex is extremely different to vast swathes of London, it is incomparable. I don't see why, nowhere else has free travel for kids because it makes no economic sense
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