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Post by vjaska on Nov 17, 2015 0:04:41 GMT
I particularly like this idea of tendering networks of routes. Quite apart from potentially helping with funding shortfalls, it could/should lead to more joined up thinking in operational matters, where money could be saved off-peak by considering the timetables across routes I completely agree with Snowman's proposals which should make a genuine dent in the shortfall and all have a sense of fairness to them. There will always be an argument against cuts but I haven't heard a logical criticism of a cut which persuades me that we must look elsewhere. I'd suggest there are easy frequency cuts to be made. Routes like the 229 and 269 carry fresh air early in the morning, evening, Sundays etc. I wouldn't disagree about the 229 and 269 in fact during the evening only one of these routes is really needed between Bexleyheath and Sidcup. The same could be said about the 137 and 417 between Streatham Hill and Clapham Common and starting the N137 about 21.00 would seem a logical move. The 417 is bad enough as it is given it's unreliability, further cuts would not help it at all.
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Post by joefrombow on Nov 17, 2015 2:47:13 GMT
Cut backs and fair increases maybe higher fares during peak periods and at Night times and starting Night routes earlier and cutting back on day routes so they finish earlier instead of around 00:30/01:00 maybe a hour or two earlier and have night routes start around 22:00/22:30 maybe ? There are an awful high number of routes running around in the late evenings carrying fresh air maybe minor frequency decreases could be introduced instead of having most minor routes running around every 15-20 minutes have them running every 30 so on either that or just deregulate the lot and have certain routes contracted how the county council's contract routes maybe ?
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Post by ServerKing on Nov 17, 2015 7:36:32 GMT
With these cuts coming up. How long before I see a Roast Master at a music festival? A modern take on the old Routemaster that's converted into a cafe selling tea and cakes that turns up to most of the events I go to. I can offer Boris Burger and chips, hot sardines, burble and squeak and overcooked white elephant for the menu (subject to availability). You forgot "warm waffle" as a dessert. I took the family out to the White Elephant at the weekend The Daughter couldn't stomach her Boris Burger and was ill on the train home
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Post by Nathan on Nov 17, 2015 9:22:28 GMT
You forgot "warm waffle" as a dessert. I took the family out to the White Elephant at the weekend The Daughter couldn't stomach her Boris Burger and was ill on the train home Have thet started offering the Route 3 for 1 meal deal yet?
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Post by sid on Nov 17, 2015 13:09:12 GMT
I wouldn't disagree about the 229 and 269 in fact during the evening only one of these routes is really needed between Bexleyheath and Sidcup. The same could be said about the 137 and 417 between Streatham Hill and Clapham Common and starting the N137 about 21.00 would seem a logical move. The 417 is bad enough as it is given it's unreliability, further cuts would not help it at all. Just to clarify I was only suggesting replacing the evening service with the N137 and no change to the daytime service. On a similar vein the (N)65 could be extended to Chessington after about 21.00 replacing the 71, fairly modest savings but they all add up.
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Post by Red Dragon on Nov 17, 2015 17:04:42 GMT
I took the family out to the White Elephant at the weekend The Daughter couldn't stomach her Boris Burger and was ill on the train home Have they started offering the Route 3 for 1 meal deal yet? Eat free if you enter from the back!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2015 19:06:48 GMT
I agree with ServerKing's point about replacing buses less often. The savings may not be £700m a year, but they'd be significant nonetheless. There are a lot of buses in London, and they were not cheap. Those costs have added up over time.
The older ones could be refurbished to a high standard. Take PVL115 as an example. It could have: a thorough clean and overhaul of the interior including new seats and new floor, extensive body repair and repaint, engine replacement/rebuild and a new gearbox, plus emissions mods. With all of that, there's no reason why that 15 year old bus couldn't do another 15 years of service. The same thing is done with trains after all.
The biggest problem would be the position of the staircase, but as a workaround maybe the driver could assist in the boarding of wheelchair users. Or maybe even the wheelchair space and seating area could be swapped around, so the former is on the right, with the wheelchair ramp on the front door instead of the back.
Maybe polishing older buses isn't the most "respectable" thing for a major capital city like London to do. But let's not kid ourselves; this country is in major economic trouble.
The New Bus for London is a nice idea, but being a product of the modern era already sealed its fate as a failure before it was even designed. Had the Borismaster been designed 25 years ago, it probably would've been great. British Rail's Networker train is a perfect example. It could have easily served as a universal replacement to the slam door stock in the '90s, but never did because of lack of interest in the idea, plus they were expensive. Networkers had their fair share of incidents when they were new, but they aren't and never were inherently flawed like the Roastmaster is.
Maybe uprating a Volvo B7TL to Euro 5 spec isn't entirely impressive, but I doubt that the B9TL is any better. We know that B9TLs drink diesel, plus they really smell. Of what, I don't know. But at any rate I suspect foul play somewhere.
The real problem is this: there are too many people in this city. Too many people equals: too many bus routes and too many buses, too much pressure on the tube, a major housing crisis, high unemployment, high pressure on the NHS, too many cars resulting in too much traffic and poor parking availability, so on and so forth.
"There's too many men Too many people Making too many problems And not much love to go round Can't you see This is a land of confusion."
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Post by snoggle on Nov 17, 2015 22:58:45 GMT
How much would they save by scrapping the free kids travel? I FOI'd a paper that TfL were supposed to send to the TfL Board / Surface Transport Panel about possible cost savings on the bus network. A lot of the numbers were blanked out in the paper as TfL applied a lot of exemptions. However the numbers for concession scheme costs were not excluded. £m 2013 values Under 16s - £80m cost to TfL, £75m is the bus share 16-18 - £70m cost to TfL, £55m is the bus share 18+ - £30m cost to TfL, £10m is the bus share Bus and Tram Discount - £25m to TfL, £25m is the bus share. No discount on tube / DLR / Overground Jobcentre Plus - £3m cost to TfL, £2m is the bus share Freedom pass before 0930 MF - £21m cost to TfL, £16m is the bus share. The Mayor instructed TfL to fund this extension to the scheme. Not a Boroughs cost. 60+ Pass - £19m cost to TfL, £12m is the bus share. Overall the concessions cost TfL £248m and the bus share is £195m per annum (as at 2013). Values will have changed somewhat since then but probably not hugely given the lowish fare rises over the last couple of years. These are obviously significant numbers and many are tied to clear political decisions. Reversal would be unlikely to be popular with some voters. Clearly what the above numbers can't tell you is what actually happens if you scrap the scheme. It certainly can't tell you what happens if there is a partial scaling back. By "happens" I mean how patronage changes, whether TfL can cancel routes altogether, how many people who travel free today would in future pay something to travel (including children).
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Post by vjaska on Nov 18, 2015 0:52:14 GMT
I agree with ServerKing's point about replacing buses less often. The savings may not be £700m a year, but they'd be significant nonetheless. There are a lot of buses in London, and they were not cheap. Those costs have added up over time. The older ones could be refurbished to a high standard. Take PVL115 as an example. It could have: a thorough clean and overhaul of the interior including new seats and new floor, extensive body repair and repaint, engine replacement/rebuild and a new gearbox, plus emissions mods. With all of that, there's no reason why that 15 year old bus couldn't do another 15 years of service. The same thing is done with trains after all. The biggest problem would be the position of the staircase, but as a workaround maybe the driver could assist in the boarding of wheelchair users. Or maybe even the wheelchair space and seating area could be swapped around, so the former is on the right, with the wheelchair ramp on the front door instead of the back. Maybe polishing older buses isn't the most "respectable" thing for a major capital city like London to do. But let's not kid ourselves; this country is in major economic trouble. The New Bus for London is a nice idea, but being a product of the modern era already sealed its fate as a failure before it was even designed. Had the Borismaster been designed 25 years ago, it probably would've been great. British Rail's Networker train is a perfect example. It could have easily served as a universal replacement to the slam door stock in the '90s, but never did because of lack of interest in the idea, plus they were expensive. Networkers had their fair share of incidents when they were new, but they aren't and never were inherently flawed like the Roastmaster is. Maybe uprating a Volvo B7TL to Euro 5 spec isn't entirely impressive, but I doubt that the B9TL is any better. We know that B9TLs drink diesel, plus they really smell. Of what, I don't know. But at any rate I suspect foul play somewhere. The real problem is this: there are too many people in this city. Too many people equals: too many bus routes and too many buses, too much pressure on the tube, a major housing crisis, high unemployment, high pressure on the NHS, too many cars resulting in too much traffic and poor parking availability, so on and so forth. "There's too many men Too many people Making too many problems And not much love to go round Can't you see This is a land of confusion." Excellent choice of song from one of my all time favourite albums. I'm not sure about another 15 years for a W reg PVL but I could see one do another 5 years without too much issue with an emissions mod and a standard refurb aiding it. I do agree though that buses are regularly tossed out of London despite having plenty more to give. We may have a situation in 2017 where Go-Ahead could potentially be cascading 06 reg E's out of London (depending on the current vehicle situation at the time) which I think would be absurd.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2015 12:14:04 GMT
Excellent choice of song from one of my all time favourite albums. I'm not sure about another 15 years for a W reg PVL but I could see one do another 5 years without too much issue with an emissions mod and a standard refurb aiding it. I do agree though that buses are regularly tossed out of London despite having plenty more to give. We may have a situation in 2017 where Go-Ahead could potentially be cascading 06 reg E's out of London (depending on the current vehicle situation at the time) which I think would be absurd. I'm not the world's biggest Phil Collins/Genesis fan, but Land of Confusion and Invisible Touch are definite classics, as well as other songs from their albums. I'd agree that 5 years would be about right for a W reg PVL with a standard refurb and emissions mods. But I honestly think more could be had from them with a much more comprehensive refurbishment programme. Around 2006/07 I was under the assumption that we didn't need new buses for a while, because of how long the older ones lasted, and given we already had all low floor buses. Of course back then I wasn't familiar with the tendering system, and the need to reduce pollution. Seeing the 06 reg Es withdrawn in 2017 would certainly be surprising. Though, I've never liked them, so I wouldn't be too disheartened.
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Post by sid on Nov 18, 2015 22:36:42 GMT
Excellent choice of song from one of my all time favourite albums. I'm not sure about another 15 years for a W reg PVL but I could see one do another 5 years without too much issue with an emissions mod and a standard refurb aiding it. I do agree though that buses are regularly tossed out of London despite having plenty more to give. We may have a situation in 2017 where Go-Ahead could potentially be cascading 06 reg E's out of London (depending on the current vehicle situation at the time) which I think would be absurd. I'm not the world's biggest Phil Collins/Genesis fan, but Land of Confusion and Invisible Touch are definite classics, as well as other songs from their albums. I'd agree that 5 years would be about right for a W reg PVL with a standard refurb and emissions mods. But I honestly think more could be had from them with a much more comprehensive refurbishment programme. Around 2006/07 I was under the assumption that we didn't need new buses for a while, because of how long the older ones lasted, and given we already had all low floor buses. Of course back then I wasn't familiar with the tendering system, and the need to reduce pollution. Seeing the 06 reg Es withdrawn in 2017 would certainly be surprising. Though, I've never liked them, so I wouldn't be too disheartened. They will be 11 years old by then so surely it won't be that much of a shock?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2015 22:40:32 GMT
I'm not the world's biggest Phil Collins/Genesis fan, but Land of Confusion and Invisible Touch are definite classics, as well as other songs from their albums. I'd agree that 5 years would be about right for a W reg PVL with a standard refurb and emissions mods. But I honestly think more could be had from them with a much more comprehensive refurbishment programme. Around 2006/07 I was under the assumption that we didn't need new buses for a while, because of how long the older ones lasted, and given we already had all low floor buses. Of course back then I wasn't familiar with the tendering system, and the need to reduce pollution. Seeing the 06 reg Es withdrawn in 2017 would certainly be surprising. Though, I've never liked them, so I wouldn't be too disheartened. They will be 11 years old by then so surely it won't be that much of a shock? Please don't remind me that 2006 was 9 years ago already.
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Post by mondraker275 on Nov 19, 2015 11:16:01 GMT
I believe the free travel are part subsidised by higher fares for Adults. If they did scrap it, then they would also save money from running the extra 100 buses they run for school journeys. It has been about 10 years of free travel, and I think it has been successful in terms of saving unnecessary car journeys for school runs as well as giving children more choice of schools. Many children/young people have also continued to use public transport instead of looking to get a car. I've not noticed any reduction in school run traffic, just look how much quieter the roads are during half term. Well, without the free travel, I am sure it could be worse right now.
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Post by sid on Nov 19, 2015 11:46:55 GMT
I've not noticed any reduction in school run traffic, just look how much quieter the roads are during half term. Well, without the free travel, I am sure it could be worse right now. The big difference would be that buses wouldn't be so packed at school times leaving fare paying passengers behind.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2015 12:01:49 GMT
Well, without the free travel, I am sure it could be worse right now. The big difference would be that buses wouldn't be so packed at school times leaving fare paying passengers behind. A lot of school kids only go 1 or 2 stops anyway. Taking the bus is more of a social thing for them. With all that fried chicken they eat after school, they could probably use the exercise.
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