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Post by busman on Jun 16, 2017 11:52:23 GMT
vjaska I agree, no need to knock them down right away, but I think all remaining tower blocks should have water sprinklers fitted immediately. Within each flat and in hallways. Also any cladding that is not fire retardant should be replaced. Whilst that is done, new flats with multiple exits should be built to replace existing towers in each borough. Eventually those concrete builds with single points of escape need to be replaced. But only after new flats have been built to relocate people into. We also need new laws introduced to prevent this type of tragedy from happening again. My thoughts and prayers are with all the victims of this horrible fire. This is sickening and a totally unnecessary and preventable loss of life. Yes we mourn the dead, but we must also help the survivors. I encourage you all to give generously to those who have lost everything. I was at Hammersmith Town Hall last night and the response of people to this tragedy has been heart warming. We live in a nation of caring, compassionate and generous people. Best thing is to donate funds or if you have items to give, donate them to your local collection point. Local centres caring for those made homeless will call on supplies to be delivered to them when needed.
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Post by sid on Jun 16, 2017 13:49:15 GMT
Yes without wishing to prejudge anything it does seem that the type of cladding used was the main factor here and more concerning is that the same sort of cladding has apparently been fitted to other tower blocks. Surely it will all have to be removed forthwith and in the longer term all these tower blocks from the 60s and 70s demolished? Certainly if I were living in such a tower block with cladding I wouldn't be sleeping very easily at night. There was a tower block fire in Melbourne Australia a few years ago that was exacerbated by the cladding although there was no loss of life. I saw a tower block fire in New Addington many years ago and it was all dealt with in textbook fashion, the fire was contained within the flat, there was no evacuation and the fire brigade arrived within a few minutes and extinguished it very quickly. I saw the aftermath of the Lakanal House fire in Southwark a few years ago and that was bad enough but I never imagined we would see anything on the scale of Grenfell Tower in this country. Whilst we've seen the best side of humanity in the wake of this we've also seen some of the worst and I thought that rude little brat heckling Sadiq Khan really was appalling, obviously feelings are running high but that was totally uncalled for. It's probably going to be a few weeks before the final death toll is known, the building will have to be made safe before any search can begin and inevitably it's likely to run into hundreds with some victims never being identified. I think calls to pull down 1960's & 1970's tower blocks are a knee jerk reaction - they can be very safe to live in if the local authority or owner looks after them. The ones on my estate are in a decent condition but they do need better fire safety inside and I believe it can be achieved if they follow the recommendations. Concrete Tower Blocks are very good at preventing a blaze from spreading and given some new buildings aren't up to scratch such as the one I live in which is nearly 9 years old and has had many problems with damp resulting in me having to live in a hotel for 5 months earlier this year, I did actually think I was better off back living in my old ground floor tower block flat. Knocking down tower blocks would also further exasperate the housing crisis as you could not the same number of housing where one stood before. The housing crisis is the crux of most problems but that's another debate.
People in this block are now living in fear: www.itv.com/news/update/2017-06-15/families-in-london-tower-blocks-now-living-in-fear/
A lot of old tower blocks have been demolished and I think a concerted effort should be made to get rid of the rest over the next few years.
I seem to remember you saying that you were temporarily living in Vauxhall  .
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2017 15:56:24 GMT
Massive protest at Kensigton Town Hall. A lot of tension!!  |
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Post by rambo on Jun 16, 2017 21:33:45 GMT
Sadly, tennants vandalise saftey systems......................
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Post by vjaska on Jun 16, 2017 22:12:39 GMT
Sadly, tennants vandalise saftey systems...................... That's a valid point though I know for a fact not everyone vandalises them but it doesn't mean local authorities can sit idle ignoring people when they tell them it's a fire risk. Of course, it seems in this case any resident of the block in question would struggle to vandalise a safety system that didn't even exist  |
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Post by vjaska on Jun 16, 2017 22:23:27 GMT
I think calls to pull down 1960's & 1970's tower blocks are a knee jerk reaction - they can be very safe to live in if the local authority or owner looks after them. The ones on my estate are in a decent condition but they do need better fire safety inside and I believe it can be achieved if they follow the recommendations. Concrete Tower Blocks are very good at preventing a blaze from spreading and given some new buildings aren't up to scratch such as the one I live in which is nearly 9 years old and has had many problems with damp resulting in me having to live in a hotel for 5 months earlier this year, I did actually think I was better off back living in my old ground floor tower block flat. Knocking down tower blocks would also further exasperate the housing crisis as you could not the same number of housing where one stood before. The housing crisis is the crux of most problems but that's another debate.
People in this block are now living in fear: www.itv.com/news/update/2017-06-15/families-in-london-tower-blocks-now-living-in-fear/
A lot of old tower blocks have been demolished and I think a concerted effort should be made to get rid of the rest over the next few years.
I seem to remember you saying that you were temporarily living in Vauxhall .
Indeed, the housing crisis is a multitude of problems but it would be further exasperated if you demolish tower blocks without a like for like replacement. I don't blame people at all for living in fear but of course, if local authorities actually prioritise safety over appearances, people wouldn't need to live in fear in the first place. Those tower blocks that were demolished have been for different reasons - some were demolished because the original architect cocked up massively when building them by scrimping on flawed concrete in the construction process. Most tower blocks when looked after are perfectly safe to live in and as I said before, simply knocking down tower blocks because of an incident that actually has nothing to do with the original design of the block but instead to do with the owner and subsequent refurbishment is flawed thinking IMO. I lived in two identical 1960's flint style tower blocks for the first 17 years of my life and they are incredibly sturdy structures - the refurb job in the late 90's brought them up to a good standard except for fire regulations though I suspect fire regulations were quite out of date by then as only fire doors were fitted. I was indeed in Vauxhall for 5 months - firstly living in the big apartments opposite the bus station before having to move into Travelodge when they failed to rebook us in the apartment  Vauxhall is full of new high rise buildings so fingers crossed they're up to scratch because the apartment I was in nearly had everything fire safety wise apart from sprinklers which apparently must be included in all new builds over a certain height since 2006 |
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Post by sid on Jun 16, 2017 23:12:10 GMT
Massive protest at Kensigton Town Hall. A lot of tension!! Rent a mob turned up! |
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Post by ServerKing on Jun 17, 2017 7:14:47 GMT
Massive protest at Kensigton Town Hall. A lot of tension!! Rent a mob turned up! I can understand the anger of residents, but it's always the case that masked individuals come from nowhere and start something off, same thing happened in 2011. There's a correlation between Tory governments and riots. Something tells me high temperatures, lack of answers will set stuff off over the weekend. Express reports a small fire in a block of flats in Tarling Street, E1 (Wapping / Shadwell), decking, but put out. Our housing situation has to be reviewed. Divert the money for foreign aid back to those in UK who need it. Theresa is finished, I think this will kill off her political career. |
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Post by sid on Jun 17, 2017 7:28:39 GMT
I can understand the anger of residents, but it's always the case that masked individuals come from nowhere and start something off, same thing happened in 2011. There's a correlation between Tory governments and riots. Something tells me high temperatures, lack of answers will set stuff off over the weekend. Express reports a small fire in a block of flats in Tarling Street, E1 (Wapping / Shadwell), decking, but put out. Our housing situation has to be reviewed. Divert the money for foreign aid back to those in UK who need it. Theresa is finished, I think this will kill off her political career. I suspect most of the trouble makers had no connection to the fire and were just there trying to incite trouble, fortunately the more sensible majority managed to keep things reasonably calm. I thought Mrs May should have stepped down after the recent general election but I really don't see how she can be blamed for this fire. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2017 8:51:19 GMT
Massive protest at Kensigton Town Hall. A lot of tension!! Rent a mob turned up! Twitter was full of idiots last night almost wetting them selfs at the prospect of starting a riot! - That is the last thing London needs after the last few weeks of events : ( |
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Post by SILENCED on Jun 17, 2017 9:22:20 GMT
I can understand the anger of residents, but it's always the case that masked individuals come from nowhere and start something off, same thing happened in 2011. There's a correlation between Tory governments and riots. Something tells me high temperatures, lack of answers will set stuff off over the weekend. Express reports a small fire in a block of flats in Tarling Street, E1 (Wapping / Shadwell), decking, but put out. Our housing situation has to be reviewed. Divert the money for foreign aid back to those in UK who need it. Theresa is finished, I think this will kill off her political career. What amazed me most is how sloppy shoulders our mayor has been, does he not have the last say on planning in London? |
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Post by snoggle on Jun 17, 2017 9:49:40 GMT
I can understand the anger of residents, but it's always the case that masked individuals come from nowhere and start something off, same thing happened in 2011. There's a correlation between Tory governments and riots. Something tells me high temperatures, lack of answers will set stuff off over the weekend. Express reports a small fire in a block of flats in Tarling Street, E1 (Wapping / Shadwell), decking, but put out. Our housing situation has to be reviewed. Divert the money for foreign aid back to those in UK who need it. Theresa is finished, I think this will kill off her political career. What amazed me most is how sloppy shoulders our mayor has been, does he not have the last say on planning in London? Since when can the Mayor control the legislative programme in Parliament? None of this is about whether you build low or build tall. It is about the standards, set in legislation, that apply and then about how local authorities, not City Hall, deal with the minutiae of planning permission and subsequent changes. There are also serious questions to be asked about the public housing management arrangements in RBK&C and the reasons for cosmetic refurbishment with cladding. AIUI the Mayor has written to the Prime Minister on a number of points but I haven't checked the detail of what he has said. I imagine rather more has been going on behind the scenes and I doubt it has all been "calm". And to move this away from any party political point I think governments of all hues over the last 30-40 years have some responsibility for pursuing an agenda of emasculating and underfunding local authorities and for pushing for more remote, more costly and more complex management arrangements that are difficult to oversee. And I will stop there because the whole thing I so horrific and scandalous I've been stuck for words for days. |
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Post by mondraker275 on Jun 17, 2017 10:28:53 GMT
Twitter was full of idiots last night almost wetting them selfs at the prospect of starting a riot! - That is the last thing London needs after the last few weeks of events : ( Those riots led to building fires. Whats that word - irony, I think. Clearly it would be stupid. I do not blame anyone for the mistakes, delays regarding the aftermath of the incident. You cannot prepare for such an event. Therefore I understand the government being slow, the police and ambulance not able to help people find information quicker. You can only praise the efforts of all including the general public. Learn from the aftermath process later. Having said that, every major event seems to have these communication issues - but I guess asking a victims name or identifying someone is not an immediate priority while the incident is in the first 24 hours and so it takes time to catch up. You can critise what happened before the event. Although nothing has been confirmed or investigated, there are a lot things out there that does not look good. It is ironic again that the police/fire brigade cannot enter the building as its not safe and it is hazardous.That must be frustrating to the victims thinking its a bit late to be taking Health and Safety seriously, should have taken it seriously beforehand. |
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Post by snoggle on Jun 17, 2017 11:50:11 GMT
I do not blame anyone for the mistakes, delays regarding the aftermath of the incident. You cannot prepare for such an event. Therefore I understand the government being slow, the police and ambulance not able to help people find information quicker. You can only praise the efforts of all including the general public. Learn from the aftermath process later. Having said that, every major event seems to have these communication issues - but I guess asking a victims name or identifying someone is not an immediate priority while the incident is in the first 24 hours and so it takes time to catch up. I am sorry to disagree but you can plan for these things. This is why organisations have risk management processes, emergency preparedness plans, desk top exercises and simulated real life emergencies. My only caveat here would that this fire is on a horrific scale. Nonetheless the emergency services have coped admirably - because they plan, do mock exercises and review what worked and what did not. They will also have access to info on incidents in other countries because effective organisations, especially in a capital city, share learning. Councils (and government where necessary) are supposed to provide emergency assistance and to have people nominated and identified in the required roles. Even if you discard 50% of the media reporting something appears to have failed at both council and government level this time. When you consider how well we have recovered from floods, terrorism incidents and other fires (e.g. on the tube and rail network) in more recent years at different places across the country then something has gone wrong. I agree with you that it is impossible to have "perfect" communications in such a difficult situation and there will always be some mismatch between expectation and reality but something is not right about how much of this incident has been handled by local and central government. We can do better and have done better than this in the past and I make NO party political point here. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2017 12:09:37 GMT
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Vauxhall is full of new high rise buildings so fingers crossed they're up to scratch because the apartment I was in nearly had everything fire safety wise apart from sprinklers which apparently must be included in all new builds over a certain height since 2006 
