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Post by Hassaan on Jun 19, 2017 0:25:31 GMT
I felt it was odd that on Friday evening a lady was complaining on TV about hidden information as her friend could see several body bags from the train, and then the next day the Fire Brigade request the trains to be suspended... Start the conspiracy thread. There are so many conspiracy theories doing the rounds on social media it's ridiculous, the railway line was supposed to reopen this afternoon but it hasn't so that will no doubt give those behind such theories more ammunition. I don't know why LU or the fire brigade can't just say why it's had to be closed and put an end to this nonsense. Likewise I'm absolutely fed up of these conspiracy theories about the disaster. Looking at on social media and stuff shared from the gutter press really gets me angry. The worst one was speculation about the behaviour of the resident(s) whose flat the fire started in, and claiming to have identified them. Does anyone seriously for a second think that after all this they would want to identify themselves, with all the risks that entails? Imagine how bad they must be feeling ðŸ˜. And people shouldn't forget that families have been made homeless and have lost their loved ones. Can anyone imagine, of all the possible ways to die, a more horrific way than being burnt alive? ðŸ˜ðŸ˜ðŸ˜ And the effect on those who saw it in person, especially children? Like Dan posted earlier, I'm also worried about people (the majority almost certainly being "third-parties"  ) using it as an opportunity to create riot and disorder. I guess for these next few weeks I should avoid social media completely. |
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Post by sid on Jun 19, 2017 7:51:34 GMT
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Post by mondraker275 on Jun 19, 2017 15:58:39 GMT
At what point was debris not at risk of falling? The lines should have been closed from start to now and beyond. It was deemed safe to open, before the Fire Brigade asked for it to be closed, coincidentally or not after someone on TV said their friends saw things from the train. It also disrepecting TfL health and safety risk assessment, as if they are not in the position to make that judgement themselves. You can tell from the language in the tweets with TfL emphasising they are being more or less told to stop running services. |
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Post by sid on Jun 19, 2017 16:05:15 GMT
At what point was debris not at risk of falling? The lines should have been closed from start to now and beyond. It was deemed safe to open, before the Fire Brigade asked for it to be closed, coincidentally or not after someone on TV said their friends saw things from the train. It also disrepecting TfL health and safety risk assessment, as if they are not in the position to make that judgement themselves. You can tell from the language in the tweets with TfL emphasising they are being more or less told to stop running services. Yes the fire brigade have asked that trains be stopped at about 11.00 on Saturday, beyond that I don't know. |
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Post by snoggle on Jun 19, 2017 22:14:29 GMT
At what point was debris not at risk of falling? The lines should have been closed from start to now and beyond. It was deemed safe to open, before the Fire Brigade asked for it to be closed, coincidentally or not after someone on TV said their friends saw things from the train. It also disrepecting TfL health and safety risk assessment, as if they are not in the position to make that judgement themselves. You can tell from the language in the tweets with TfL emphasising they are being more or less told to stop running services. Don't understand your apparent complaint. TfL/LU are in no position to evaluate the state of the tower block. They are completely dependent on the views of those with the requisite skills and knowledge. You would be a very brave (or utterly cavalier / clueless) person who decided to ignore the advice of one of the emergency services. Given LU has to have a robust but effective working relationship with the LFB in respect of its own system it is not likely to try to use its own view to override the instruction of the LFB. I am sure "robust" discussions will have gone on in the background but LU's hands are tied until the LFB / RBKC people declare the building safe or are in a position to try to prevent disturbance / fallout affecting the railway. Can you imagine if LU said "sod it" and ran its trains and that action caused a problem in the block or endangered people? Alternatively can you imagine if LU said "sod it" and ran its trains and then the building collapsed on the railway and killed people in a train? There is no way out of those "disasters" - whoever took the decision to run the trains would be "killed" on the alter of public opinion. It would also rebound on City Hall and the Mayor who is the Chair of TfL. That's just not worth contemplating if you are the Mayor or the Commissioner. And finally I suspect the public are extremely understanding about the disruption and will not be moaning unduly. Therefore there's no public pressure to run trains if there was to be any downside to the efforts to make the building safe / search for bodies. |
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Post by vjaska on Jun 19, 2017 23:32:24 GMT
At what point was debris not at risk of falling? The lines should have been closed from start to now and beyond. It was deemed safe to open, before the Fire Brigade asked for it to be closed, coincidentally or not after someone on TV said their friends saw things from the train. It also disrepecting TfL health and safety risk assessment, as if they are not in the position to make that judgement themselves. You can tell from the language in the tweets with TfL emphasising they are being more or less told to stop running services. Don't understand your apparent complaint. TfL/LU are in no position to evaluate the state of the tower block. They are completely dependent on the views of those with the requisite skills and knowledge. You would be a very brave (or utterly cavalier / clueless) person who decided to ignore the advice of one of the emergency services. Given LU has to have a robust but effective working relationship with the LFB in respect of its own system it is not likely to try to use its own view to override the instruction of the LFB. I am sure "robust" discussions will have gone on in the background but LU's hands are tied until the LFB / RBKC people declare the building safe or are in a position to try to prevent disturbance / fallout affecting the railway. Can you imagine if LU said "sod it" and ran its trains and that action caused a problem in the block or endangered people? Alternatively can you imagine if LU said "sod it" and ran its trains and then the building collapsed on the railway and killed people in a train? There is no way out of those "disasters" - whoever took the decision to run the trains would be "killed" on the alter of public opinion. It would also rebound on City Hall and the Mayor who is the Chair of TfL. That's just not worth contemplating if you are the Mayor or the Commissioner. And finally I suspect the public are extremely understanding about the disruption and will not be moaning unduly. Therefore there's no public pressure to run trains if there was to be any downside to the efforts to make the building safe / search for bodies. Isn't mondraker275 arguing for the opposite point as in why wasn't trains stopped immediately after the disaster given the falling debris rather than why was trains stopped a few days later? |
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Post by vjaska on Jun 19, 2017 23:48:49 GMT
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40330789Interesting article with one particular section, flying flat in the faces of those who think pulling older tower blocks down will solve everything, in a letter from the All-Party Parliamentary Fire Safety and Rescue Group: "Today's buildings have a much higher content of readily available combustible material. Examples are timber and polystyrene mixes in structure, cladding and insulation.
"This fire hazard results in many fires because adequate recommendations to developers simply do not exist. There is little or no requirement to mitigate external fire spread."Four times this group wrote to four separate ministers with one minister even amazingly saying that it wasn't urgent to make changes regarding fire safety around a year after Lakanal House were published 
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Post by mondraker275 on Jun 20, 2017 10:45:33 GMT
At what point was debris not at risk of falling? The lines should have been closed from start to now and beyond. It was deemed safe to open, before the Fire Brigade asked for it to be closed, coincidentally or not after someone on TV said their friends saw things from the train. It also disrepecting TfL health and safety risk assessment, as if they are not in the position to make that judgement themselves. You can tell from the language in the tweets with TfL emphasising they are being more or less told to stop running services. Don't understand your apparent complaint. TfL/LU are in no position to evaluate the state of the tower block. They are completely dependent on the views of those with the requisite skills and knowledge. You would be a very brave (or utterly cavalier / clueless) person who decided to ignore the advice of one of the emergency services. Given LU has to have a robust but effective working relationship with the LFB in respect of its own system it is not likely to try to use its own view to override the instruction of the LFB. I am sure "robust" discussions will have gone on in the background but LU's hands are tied until the LFB / RBKC people declare the building safe or are in a position to try to prevent disturbance / fallout affecting the railway. Can you imagine if LU said "sod it" and ran its trains and that action caused a problem in the block or endangered people? Alternatively can you imagine if LU said "sod it" and ran its trains and then the building collapsed on the railway and killed people in a train? There is no way out of those "disasters" - whoever took the decision to run the trains would be "killed" on the alter of public opinion. It would also rebound on City Hall and the Mayor who is the Chair of TfL. That's just not worth contemplating if you are the Mayor or the Commissioner. And finally I suspect the public are extremely understanding about the disruption and will not be moaning unduly. Therefore there's no public pressure to run trains if there was to be any downside to the efforts to make the building safe / search for bodies. I think the reasonings given for the closure are not entirely the reasons the lines are closed. The most dangerous time of the falling debris was the first 24/48 hours while the incident was still in progress and no safety checks were done. Yet the trains were running perfectly fine. However, clearly, in my opinion, LFB clocked onto the fact that people were seeing from the train what was happening, possibly undermining the investigation and work. This was Friday. The very next day the lines are shut. Its no coincidence that the is a large cordon, with no access from the ground level. I am not saying that the LFB are upto no good, but they do not want the investigation undermined. The TfL website now states the reason for the closure due to 'ongoing investigations'. This is more genuine reason IMO, not that there is falling debris otherwise the line would be closed until the flats are demolished, because you could argue that there is always a risk of something falling. |
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Post by snoggle on Jun 20, 2017 11:20:16 GMT
I think the reasonings given for the closure are not entirely the reasons the lines are closed. The most dangerous time of the falling debris was the first 24/48 hours while the incident was still in progress and no safety checks were done. Yet the trains were running perfectly fine. However, clearly, in my opinion, LFB clocked onto the fact that people were seeing from the train what was happening, possibly undermining the investigation and work. This was Friday. The very next day the lines are shut. Its no coincidence that the is a large cordon, with no access from the ground level. I am not saying that the LFB are upto no good, but they do not want the investigation undermined. The TfL website now states the reason for the closure due to 'ongoing investigations'. This is more genuine reason IMO, not that there is falling debris otherwise the line would be closed until the flats are demolished, because you could argue that there is always a risk of something falling. The LFB are carrying out their statutory role. There is no "funny business" going on. For the sake of the victims, their relatives and any subsequent legal case(s) this has to be done properly. In a fast moving incident as this was at the end of last week / weekend there may not always be absolute perfect timing as to when requests go in for things like rail services to be suspended. Also the view about the state of the building will and has changed over time and will no doubt continue to do so - especially if the weather changes to any significant degree. |
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Post by sid on Jun 20, 2017 12:01:37 GMT
Don't understand your apparent complaint. TfL/LU are in no position to evaluate the state of the tower block. They are completely dependent on the views of those with the requisite skills and knowledge. You would be a very brave (or utterly cavalier / clueless) person who decided to ignore the advice of one of the emergency services. Given LU has to have a robust but effective working relationship with the LFB in respect of its own system it is not likely to try to use its own view to override the instruction of the LFB. I am sure "robust" discussions will have gone on in the background but LU's hands are tied until the LFB / RBKC people declare the building safe or are in a position to try to prevent disturbance / fallout affecting the railway. Can you imagine if LU said "sod it" and ran its trains and that action caused a problem in the block or endangered people? Alternatively can you imagine if LU said "sod it" and ran its trains and then the building collapsed on the railway and killed people in a train? There is no way out of those "disasters" - whoever took the decision to run the trains would be "killed" on the alter of public opinion. It would also rebound on City Hall and the Mayor who is the Chair of TfL. That's just not worth contemplating if you are the Mayor or the Commissioner. And finally I suspect the public are extremely understanding about the disruption and will not be moaning unduly. Therefore there's no public pressure to run trains if there was to be any downside to the efforts to make the building safe / search for bodies. I think the reasonings given for the closure are not entirely the reasons the lines are closed. The most dangerous time of the falling debris was the first 24/48 hours while the incident was still in progress and no safety checks were done. Yet the trains were running perfectly fine. However, clearly, in my opinion, LFB clocked onto the fact that people were seeing from the train what was happening, possibly undermining the investigation and work. This was Friday. The very next day the lines are shut. Its no coincidence that the is a large cordon, with no access from the ground level. I am not saying that the LFB are upto no good, but they do not want the investigation undermined. The TfL website now states the reason for the closure due to 'ongoing investigations'. This is more genuine reason IMO, not that there is falling debris otherwise the line would be closed until the flats are demolished, because you could argue that there is always a risk of something falling. I think you do have a point there, the line closed about 11.00 on Saturday, did it suddenly become 'unsafe' at that time? Unlikely I would have thought. And then the line was supposed to reopen on Sunday afternoon but that didn't happen, no explanation as to why. I don't go along with the many conspiracy theories that have been doing the rounds on social media but why don't LFB and/or LU just explain why the line has had to be closed? |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2017 12:38:22 GMT
Reports online point out resident live closer to the block and have not been moved out despite safety concerns for train passengers. If bodies were being stored near the line surely they would have been moved by now? At least I really hope so  |
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Jun 21, 2017 11:29:33 GMT
All the residents made homeless are to be housed in a nearby luxury block of flats in Kensington. The single, Bridge over troubled water by artists for Grenfell is now out: www.youtube.com/watch?v=ssLGXCKE__4 |
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Post by ServerKing on Jun 21, 2017 17:33:07 GMT
Reports online point out resident live closer to the block and have not been moved out despite safety concerns for train passengers. If bodies were being stored near the line surely they would have been moved by now? At least I really hope so In such hot weather, they would have to be collected by now or the decomposition and smell would be unbearable. Hope they were collected straight away. These are 68 lives we are talking about. One nice thing is they have found some people alive and well who were previously unaccounted for. I hope RBKC face some sort of reproof for this  |
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Post by vjaska on Jun 22, 2017 12:12:16 GMT
All the residents made homeless are to be housed in a nearby luxury block of flats in Kensington. It's a good move but guess who have come out of the woodwork - the snotty nose idiots living in Kensington. Whilst some have said it's great to see them getting somewhere to live, others are moaning saying that should live elsewhere. Seriously, this is what annoys about some middle and upper class people - they think they've some sort of god given right. It's the same in Brixton - they all turn up and think they own the place stamping all over the local Afro-Carribean culture which has presided here for years and all over working class & and low income people who get pushed out as a result of rising prices yet 5 years ago wouldn't of stepped foot in Brixton due to it being 'so dangerous'! www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/grenfell-tower-fire-victims-rehoused-luxury-apartment-block-kensington-neighbours-response-reaction-a7801896.htmlI also see that when the residents move in, they'll be living in the lower scale of the two apartment blocks |
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Post by RandomBusesGirl on Jun 22, 2017 13:26:47 GMT
All the residents made homeless are to be housed in a nearby luxury block of flats in Kensington. It's a good move but guess who have come out of the woodwork - the snotty nose idiots living in Kensington. Whilst some have said it's great to see them getting somewhere to live, others are moaning saying that should live elsewhere. Seriously, this is what annoys about some middle and upper class people - they think they've some sort of god given right. Oh it gets worse - there are people who actually agree with them!! If you look at the comments in this article - www.standard.co.uk/news/london/outrage-as-luxury-flat-residents-complain-rehomed-grenfell-families-will-lower-house-prices-a3570331.html - it's like outta the bloody Daily Mail! And note the sensible things were downvoted. Does ES not moderate stuff people say?? Awful how not every family cares to shape their child's moral backbone and doesn't teach them empathy or to care for the weak and vulnerable… |
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) using it as an opportunity to create riot and disorder. I guess for these next few weeks I should avoid social media completely. 
