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Post by sid on Sept 22, 2017 13:35:06 GMT
I wouldn’t start celebrating yet. With Uber’s large number of legal friends behind them, this could be a catastrophic move by TfL. Absolutely, I suspect that this is going to run and run. |
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Post by enviroPB on Sept 22, 2017 13:50:10 GMT
Eh? You have completely missed the point. I am not criticising Uber for wanting to use self-driving. If you read what I wrote, I am criticising them for their hypocrisy in claiming to be defending their drivers' livelihoods when it is quite clear that they do not give two hoots about their drivers. In any case this is a thread about Uber, so of course my comments are going to be centred on Uber. What's stunning about that? I don't see any hypocrisy at all on the part of Uber. I can't for the life of me understand why you have bought self driving vehicles into it? They're not going to happen anytime soon are they? I used to work for Uber Eats and can vouch for their distinct lack of care towards their 'employees'. They're not bothered to vet potential staff and ask you to fill out an online form instead (leading to omissions of details at the very least by some); they say you're your own boss but if you don't accept every trip, you get frozen out of the app. Your pay can be negotiated downwards at a drop of a hat with their flexible paying model if there was an influx of drivers & weren't forecasting to pay out for that many 'staff'. The list goes on unfortunately so I can totally understand why TfL denied Uber its license on corporate grounds. |
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Post by sid on Sept 22, 2017 13:56:09 GMT
I don't see any hypocrisy at all on the part of Uber. I can't for the life of me understand why you have bought self driving vehicles into it? They're not going to happen anytime soon are they? I used to work for Uber Eats and can vouch for their distinct lack of care towards their 'employees'. They're not bothered to vet potential staff and ask you to fill out an online form instead (leading to omissions of details at the very least by some); they say you're your own boss but if you don't accept every trip, you get frozen out of the app. Your pay can be negotiated downwards at a drop of a hat with their flexible paying model if there was an influx of drivers & weren't forecasting to pay out for that many 'staff'. The list goes on unfortunately so I can totally understand why TfL denied Uber its license on corporate grounds. That doesn't surprise me, I know somebody who did some casual work delivering takeaways (nothing to do with Uber) and it was much the same, in the end he decided it wasn't worth doing but they had several other drivers who they could call as and when. The takeaway delivery market is big business nowadays although I've never used it  !
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Post by enviroPB on Sept 22, 2017 15:09:00 GMT
I used to work for Uber Eats and can vouch for their distinct lack of care towards their 'employees'. They're not bothered to vet potential staff and ask you to fill out an online form instead (leading to omissions of details at the very least by some); they say you're your own boss but if you don't accept every trip, you get frozen out of the app. Your pay can be negotiated downwards at a drop of a hat with their flexible paying model if there was an influx of drivers & weren't forecasting to pay out for that many 'staff'. The list goes on unfortunately so I can totally understand why TfL denied Uber its license on corporate grounds. That doesn't surprise me, I know somebody who did some casual work delivering takeaways (nothing to do with Uber) and it was much the same, in the end he decided it wasn't worth doing but they had several other drivers who they could call as and when. The takeaway delivery market is big business nowadays although I've never used it !
I heard a couple days ago that Uber (UK) may go bust if they were forced to see all their workforce as employees rather than self-employed. If their financial stability is hampered by that decison, then additionally losing the London market would almost definately have grave, unforeseen & unforecasted consequences that bosses did not plan for. Safe to say I have a prediliction of buses over cabs; that doesn't mean to say I don't use them. It's a very handy service for out-of-town places and rural spots. But Uber flaunt too many rules & regulations; including no accountability for incidents of drivers accused of assult (and don't think a firm that revolves around technology, doesn't have an abundance of data to follow up these allogations). It's hard for spectators to wonder if some Uber drivers even have driving licenses let alone a carrier's license. Essentially TfL have taken a cautinary approach instead of reacting when some scandal escalates, like the prolific rapist taxi driver John Worboys. If Uber can't or won't treat these allogations as serious; maybe go as far as using the Greyball software to actually avoid regulation, then that's not transparent & honest operations and is deemed unacceptable by the license issuer. Learn to play by the rules or don't play at all. |
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Post by snoggle on Sept 22, 2017 16:30:25 GMT
Learn to play by the rules or don't play at all. And therein lies the issue. Uber have a lot of form in other countries for flouting rules, demanding changes to laws, pressuring city / state authorities. They see themselves as somehow immune to anything they see as "old fashioned" and not in tune with their philosophy. The fact some of the former senior management were no better than crooks doesn't help matters either. They are a very dangerous outfit as seen by their willingness to discredit officials / circumvent regulation. Unfortunately they are bankrolled by some very rich outfits who clearly like their "disruptive" nature and the prospect of destroying regulated, unionised, state run transport services and the creation of eventual monopolies which will allow outrageous pricing regimes to be used. The fact that mass congestion and the destruction of public transport would be the cost of this outcome is irrelevant to those funders who just view the future enormous earning potential of a worldwide local transport monopoly. I'd not be suprised if energy / oil companies and the car manufacturers are not secretly funding Uber in just the same way as oil companies bought out the old "Red Car" tram network in Los Angeles and then closed it down condemning LA to the worst traffic congestion and pollution in the States. |
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Post by ThinLizzy on Sept 22, 2017 18:00:00 GMT
So as a regular Uber-er I'm saddened by this. Yes Uber does have some social responsibility issues that it should attend to but in the main Uber is cheap, convenient and reliable- how many of today's day-to-day consumers worry about social justice? M
I often travel at 4 in the morning and Uber is ultra reliable (maybe Uber reliable?) It's never let me down, I've never had an issue with any of the drivers and I've never felt unsafe in an Uber. My wife uses Uber as do my parents and many of my colleagues.
In my honest opinion, the black taxi trade is outdated and overpriced, It's like a time warp to the 1970s served with a mixture of Brexit, Alf Garnet and Old Spice aftershave. The black taxi trade hasn't moved with the times, it it had moved with the times there wouldn't be such a big demand for apps like Uber, Lyft etc.
I certainly hope Uber gets it's Social Justic issues sorted and TfL get their act together. Things like Uber, Citymapper bus, New Tube for London, LED/LCD destinations displays and so on are what London needs to push its Transport into the 21st century.
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Post by vjaska on Sept 22, 2017 18:30:06 GMT
So as a regular Uber-er I'm saddened by this. Yes Uber does have some social responsibility issues that it should attend to but in the main Uber is cheap, convenient and reliable- how many of today's day-to-day consumers worry about social justice? M I often travel at 4 in the morning and Uber is ultra reliable (maybe Uber reliable?) It's never let me down, I've never had an issue with any of the drivers and I've never felt unsafe in an Uber. My wife uses Uber as do my parents and many of my colleagues. In my honest opinion, the black taxi trade is outdated and overpriced, It's like a time warp to the 1970s served with a mixture of Brexit, Alf Garnet and Old Spice aftershave. The black taxi trade hasn't moved with the times, it it had moved with the times there wouldn't be such a big demand for apps like Uber, Lyft etc. I certainly hope Uber gets it's Social Justic issues sorted and TfL get their act together. Things like Uber, Citymapper bus, New Tube for London, LED/LCD destinations displays and so on are what London needs to push its Transport into the 21st century. From what I've used of Uber, it's been very handy to have and I've had no issues at all - however, if these problems are correct and as serious enough to warrant even the police writing a letter to them expressing concern over crimes being committed by some Uber drivers, then, with a heavy heart, TfL are right to strip their license. There are other similar operators to Uber who seem to have a far more positive reputation so this gives them their time to shine but also puts the spotlight on them which hopefully means those positive reputations remain positive. I agree with your opinion on black cabs - personally, I feel they are licensed thieves who simply drive into traffic to wrack up the already expensive fare to begin with and whilst minicabs are always getting stick for driving poorly, taxis should get some do as I've seen some appaling driving by them over the years - I'd like to see TfL revoke their licenses whilst they're at it but that would never happen sadly. |
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Post by snoggle on Sept 22, 2017 21:12:42 GMT
So as a regular Uber-er I'm saddened by this. Yes Uber does have some social responsibility issues that it should attend to but in the main Uber is cheap, convenient and reliable- how many of today's day-to-day consumers worry about social justice? M I often travel at 4 in the morning and Uber is ultra reliable (maybe Uber reliable?) It's never let me down, I've never had an issue with any of the drivers and I've never felt unsafe in an Uber. My wife uses Uber as do my parents and many of my colleagues. In my honest opinion, the black taxi trade is outdated and overpriced, It's like a time warp to the 1970s served with a mixture of Brexit, Alf Garnet and Old Spice aftershave. The black taxi trade hasn't moved with the times, it it had moved with the times there wouldn't be such a big demand for apps like Uber, Lyft etc. I certainly hope Uber gets it's Social Justic issues sorted and TfL get their act together. Things like Uber, Citymapper bus, New Tube for London, LED/LCD destinations displays and so on are what London needs to push its Transport into the 21st century. It isn't really "social justice" is it? It's very simply ensuring that Uber comply with what the regulator requires. The regulator is acting to ensure *the law* is met so that wider issues like passenger safety, the bona fides of "employees" are checked and that underhand tactics are not employed. Uber cannot have been ignorant of any of this when they set up. They clearly thought it didn't matter or they could bluff / battle their way through the issues. I see they are now using Twitter to try to "rouse" their customers in London to fight their case for them. I'd rather they just got on with doing what is needed to get themselves to compliance and to remain compliant. TfL will have no issue then. The taxi trade clearly will but they have a case against everyone who says things they don't like. The only reason Uber are fighting is that it will cost them money to comply - money they don't want to spend because it will weaken Uber's financial position and make the prospect of profits a more distant prospect. We have regulation for good reasons and "insurgent" new technology businesses should expect they will be subject to regulation because lawmakers usually catch up and plug any loopholes / stop unacceptable practice. |
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Post by mondraker275 on Sept 23, 2017 9:23:39 GMT
I wouldn’t start celebrating yet. With Uber’s large number of legal friends behind them, this could be a catastrophic move by TfL. Absolutely, I suspect that this is going to run and run. A bit like a the taximeter... I hope TfL go and ban black cabs from bus lanes. My journey through Westminister/Traflagar Square yesterday delayed by taxis using the bus lanes. |
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Post by sid on Sept 23, 2017 9:47:12 GMT
Absolutely, I suspect that this is going to run and run. A bit like a the taximeter... I hope TfL go and ban black cabs from bus lanes. My journey through Westminister/Traflagar Square yesterday delayed by taxis using the bus lanes. I've never understood why taxi's are allowed to use bus lane's? It seems to me that the black cab trade have a bit too much clout? |
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Post by capitalomnibus on Sept 23, 2017 11:25:19 GMT
So as a regular Uber-er I'm saddened by this. Yes Uber does have some social responsibility issues that it should attend to but in the main Uber is cheap, convenient and reliable- how many of today's day-to-day consumers worry about social justice? M I often travel at 4 in the morning and Uber is ultra reliable (maybe Uber reliable?) It's never let me down, I've never had an issue with any of the drivers and I've never felt unsafe in an Uber. My wife uses Uber as do my parents and many of my colleagues. In my honest opinion, the black taxi trade is outdated and overpriced, It's like a time warp to the 1970s served with a mixture of Brexit, Alf Garnet and Old Spice aftershave. The black taxi trade hasn't moved with the times, it it had moved with the times there wouldn't be such a big demand for apps like Uber, Lyft etc. I certainly hope Uber gets it's Social Justic issues sorted and TfL get their act together. Things like Uber, Citymapper bus, New Tube for London, LED/LCD destinations displays and so on are what London needs to push its Transport into the 21st century. It isn't really "social justice" is it? It's very simply ensuring that Uber comply with what the regulator requires. The regulator is acting to ensure *the law* is met so that wider issues like passenger safety, the bona fides of "employees" are checked and that underhand tactics are not employed. Uber cannot have been ignorant of any of this when they set up. They clearly thought it didn't matter or they could bluff / battle their way through the issues. I see they are now using Twitter to try to "rouse" their customers in London to fight their case for them. I'd rather they just got on with doing what is needed to get themselves to compliance and to remain compliant. TfL will have no issue then. The taxi trade clearly will but they have a case against everyone who says things they don't like. The only reason Uber are fighting is that it will cost them money to comply - money they don't want to spend because it will weaken Uber's financial position and make the prospect of profits a more distant prospect. We have regulation for good reasons and "insurgent" new technology businesses should expect they will be subject to regulation because lawmakers usually catch up and plug any loopholes / stop unacceptable practice. Well said, why should other mini cab firms like Addison Lee have to go through various licensing and Uber stick their middle finger up at it. It is time they comply or get out. Yes the black cab interior and creature comforts are outdated for what it is. But I do NOT see Uber as credible, I have never used them and even my cousin who had work for Uber last year gave it up after a few months, saying they didn't treat drivers well.
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Post by RandomBusesGirl on Sept 23, 2017 18:53:49 GMT
I don't think it's a big loss. People lived and got places before Uber existed, so what's different now? As someone who would rather walk around aimlessly for hours at night than get a taxi (sic!), something like giving in and getting an Uber is an insult to my pride  When I got stranded in Woodford at 4am after last N55 left 2min before my bus arrived, it hasn't even crossed my mind to call a taxi. No. I was more open to walking all the way to Forest Gate you know! (in the end walked to South Woodford and found out one of the first 123s of the day is coming to the A12 bus stop in 12min or so). I only agree to take taxis to the airport. Or towards an airport anyway - my Mum often ordered a taxi to Stratford from our house to catch the A9 coach to Stansted. But that's about it. And I never paid out of my own pocket  Also, who says you've got to take a black cab? We NEVER took those overpriced things. Nor ever tried an Uber. What we did was simply phone up a local cab company my Mum uses and that worked the best. Hard? Not at all! As for the road congestion, only time will tell if things get better. It would definitely be good if the use of drones to deliver mail and small packages had been authorised too… |
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Post by snoggle on Sept 23, 2017 20:37:42 GMT
I don't think it's a big loss. People lived and got places before Uber existed, so what's different now? People are pressured into "saving time" to "get the best out of their lives". It's "cool" to use things like Uber. People rarely think about the wider issues like the drivers being paid a pittance, the company's ethics (or lack thereof) and potential safety issues (it'll never happen to me syndrome). That's not me female doging it's just how things are. People like convenience and what they perceive to be "cheap" travel. It's not a lot different from the attitudes around buggies. Years ago parents routinely walked with prams and buggies or they folded down buggies to get on to public transport. With the advent of "buggy friendly buses" and lifts in stations there is now an expectation that such facilities should be everywhere all of the time and no one should be forced to fold up a buggy to get on a bus. That's a slightly sweeping statement but there is a sort of sense of entitlement within society whereby a lot of people think they are entitled to all sorts of things regardless of cost, debt, inconvenience to others etc. And in my best "old fogey" style there's little understanding of how things used to be - that people didn't always have access to loans and credit, that shopping was pretty much for necessities and not a leisure activity to "make you feel better" and that simpler pleasures with less technology were perfectly fulfilling. Obviously things change and I'm not about to advocate we return to the middle ages (aka the 1950s  ) but a little bit of "hardship" and doing without might not do some people any harm [1]. [1] and yes there are still plenty of people who struggle to make ends meet and I'm not including them in my comments other than to reflect they are under the same enormous "must have" commercial pressures but less able to respond to them. |
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Post by T.R. on Sept 23, 2017 21:59:37 GMT
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Post by sid on Sept 23, 2017 23:06:36 GMT
This statement from Uber www.change.org/p/save-your-uber-in-london-saveyouruberI heard the tail end of an interview on the radio with an Uber spokesperson earlier and if I understood them correctly they were saying it was the responsibility of TfL to do the necessary checks on drivers and that they can only employ them once TfL had issued them with the appropriate licence. I have no vested interest in this, I very rarely use taxi's or mini cabs, but I'm a bit unclear as to what Uber have done wrong, there certainly seems to be plenty of support from them from their customers, apparently more than 500,000 have signed the petition. As for the argument about them allegedly not treating their staff very well, that can be levelled at a lot of employers these days especially certain food outlets. A lot of women seem to feel safer using Uber www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41365995 |
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When I got stranded in Woodford at 4am after last N55 left 2min before my bus arrived, it hasn't even crossed my mind to call a taxi. No. I was more open to walking all the way to Forest Gate you know! (in the end walked to South Woodford and found out one of the first 123s of the day is coming to the A12 bus stop in 12min or so).
) but a little bit of "hardship" and doing without might not do some people any harm [1].