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Post by ronnie on Mar 9, 2021 18:55:22 GMT
I don’t know I think that things might have been changed by the pandemic and I wouldn’t be surprised to see the Pedestrianisation of Oxford Street to be revisited to attract more people to the West End. Pedestrianising Oxford Street will probably remove the few people that have any interest left in visiting it. Well a number of shops are gone. Make it more difficult to visit (congestion zone on weekends, no bus etc) and the rest of the stores can as well as shut now
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Post by vjaska on Mar 9, 2021 19:06:39 GMT
I don’t know I think that things might have been changed by the pandemic and I wouldn’t be surprised to see the Pedestrianisation of Oxford Street to be revisited to attract more people to the West End. Its a myth that pedestrianisation attracts people to a place - I mean who decides to visit somewhere based on how much pavement there is. You’ll visit a place depending on how accessible it is & what it offers.
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Post by evergreenadam on Mar 9, 2021 20:18:12 GMT
Pedestrianising Oxford Street will probably remove the few people that have any interest left in visiting it. Well a number of shops are gone. Make it more difficult to visit (congestion zone on weekends, no bus etc) and the rest of the stores can as well as shut now Marks and Spencer’s flagship Marble Arch store to be redeveloped and downsized. The loss of retail floor space continues. www.theguardian.com/business/2021/mar/09/m-and-s-oxford-street-store-marks-spencer-covid-crisis
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Post by LondonNorthern on Mar 9, 2021 21:21:12 GMT
I don’t know I think that things might have been changed by the pandemic and I wouldn’t be surprised to see the Pedestrianisation of Oxford Street to be revisited to attract more people to the West End. Its a myth that pedestrianisation attracts people to a place - I mean who decides to visit somewhere based on how much pavement there is. You’ll visit a place depending on how accessible it is & what it offers. As you've said yourself - Brixton is very attractive due to everything being within a walking distance from a bus stop whereas you have to navigate yourself round more traditional town centres.
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Post by galwhv69 on Mar 9, 2021 21:43:45 GMT
Its a myth that pedestrianisation attracts people to a place - I mean who decides to visit somewhere based on how much pavement there is. You’ll visit a place depending on how accessible it is & what it offers. As you've said yourself - Brixton is very attractive due to everything being within a walking distance from a bus stop whereas you have to navigate yourself round more traditional town centres. Wondering how many people decide not to go to Brixton just due to the smell of pee everywhere (P2 at Brixton Station is an example)
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Post by LondonNorthern on Mar 9, 2021 22:29:07 GMT
One good thing that attracts people to town centres generally is good amounts of transportation and enough capacity that suffices it - why bother going to a town centre on a crammed bus where you won't be able to find a seat and have to navigate round a town centre with shopping when you can just order online. Personally any route that can take double deckers should be converted.
If we want to get people back to our town centres, there needs to be a good selection of shops, easy accessibility to and from the town centres and good enough capacity on public transport.
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Post by galwhv69 on Mar 9, 2021 22:36:51 GMT
Also, if people are looking to go shopping, they probably won't find it convenient to have to get on a busy bus with multiple large bags, boxes etc., with it being much more convenient to go in a car or order online
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Post by thesquirrels on Mar 9, 2021 23:34:55 GMT
I'm looking forward to Oxford Street becoming a more mixed-use street and what is happening at the eastern end is indicative of where things will go. Less retail, more office and residential. It has been clinging on to an outdated model of shopping - centred around large flagship and department stores, driven by a council that has lacked ambition and kowtowed to residents who have an old fashioned view of their borough.
There are basic problems with Oxford Street that you might miss as a younger person and become more aware of as time goes on. It lacks anywhere to sit down, else you are considered an undesirable and moved along, or are willing to spend £3.30 on a coffee in Leon. In more recent years, thanks to succesive closures by Westminster Council, it even lacks that most basic thing, toilets, and the few still open are overcrowded and pretty disgusting. If you have a baby in tow there are few changing places, and getting to one is a matter of logistics. These three things alone filter a lot of people out. The food hall that opened in the mezzanine floor of 33 Cav Square a couple of years ago feels ordinary in the context of somewhere like Shoreditch or Westfield but felt like a revolution in the context of the dinosaur West End - overpriced but certainly welcome, and on my last weekend visit before Covid hit it was doing a roaring trade. In contrast to Oxford Street's ailing department stores, retail areas with smaller stores and more agile spaces have done better (take Covent Garden as an example). Some section or another has been a worksite for a decade with Crossrail and associated works. Although they are the most visible presence on the road the fate of bus services along it feels like flotsam thrown around in a much bigger storm and its role in supplying the West End with shoppers is much diminished. The street's prestige will not save it. You pop to Oxford Street for two or three hours - you don't spend the day there. It cares little for anyone who isn't spending money - you can go to Bluewater or Westfield, have a mooch around in the warm and get some lunch and still feel like a 'guest', and parents will let their kids out in groups - not something as commonly seen on the streets of W1. It doesn't necessarily matter that they don't spend money, it generates a 'buzz' and keeps the name going, and they'll go back when their paychecks start coming in.
I think when Crossrail finally opens it will give Oxford Street a shot in the arm re. visitor numbers. But I also think the pedestrianisation argument is a sideshow to a bigger situation faced by the area - Carnaby Street and Covent Garden do just fine as pedestrianised zones, and the latter is well provided by the tube station and buses along the nearby Strand. I'll still jump on the 29 down to TCR and get shopping in, because my experience of West End shopping has been shaped by three decades of visiting it and I have a fondness for it because of that; principally because it is an experience. I don't see an endgame where the street is a ghost town full of empty units, because whatever happens there is far, far too much money knocking around W1, and the incentive to adapt is there - perhaps a hybrid of smaller high end retail offerings and more street food, 'pop up' events etc. You won't necessarily need to eat into the road space to provide this - the empty shop units will be able to provide plenty of space for it. I don't think the buses need to go, but if they were removed in part I don't think it would finish the street off either.
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Post by vjaska on Mar 9, 2021 23:45:11 GMT
I'm looking forward to Oxford Street becoming a more mixed-use street and what is happening at the eastern end is indicative of where things will go. Less retail, more office and residential. It has been clinging on to an outdated model of shopping - centred around large flagship and department stores, driven by a council that has lacked ambition and kowtowed to residents who have an old fashioned view of their borough. There are basic problems with Oxford Street that you might miss as a younger person and become more aware of as time goes on. It lacks anywhere to sit down, else you are considered an undesirable and moved along, or are willing to spend £3.30 on a coffee in Leon. In more recent years, thanks to succesive closures by Westminster Council, it even lacks that most basic thing, toilets, and the few still open are overcrowded and pretty disgusting. If you have a baby in tow there are few changing places, and getting to one is a matter of logistics. These three things alone filter a lot of people out. The food hall that opened in the mezzanine floor of 33 Cav Square a couple of years ago feels ordinary in the context of somewhere like Shoreditch or Westfield but felt like a revolution in the context of the dinosaur West End - overpriced but certainly welcome, and on my last weekend visit before Covid hit it was doing a roaring trade. In contrast to Oxford Street's ailing department stores, retail areas with smaller stores and more agile spaces have done better (take Covent Garden as an example). Some section or another has been a worksite for a decade with Crossrail and associated works. Although they are the most visible presence on the road the fate of bus services along it feels like flotsam thrown around in a much bigger storm and its role in supplying the West End with shoppers is much diminished. The street's prestige will not save it. You pop to Oxford Street for two or three hours - you don't spend the day there. It cares little for anyone who isn't spending money - you can go to Bluewater or Westfield, have a mooch around in the warm and get some lunch and still feel like a 'guest', and parents will let their kids out in groups - not something as commonly seen on the streets of W1. It doesn't necessarily matter that they don't spend money, it generates a 'buzz' and keeps the name going, and they'll go back when their paychecks start coming in. I think when Crossrail finally opens it will give Oxford Street a shot in the arm re. visitor numbers. But I also think the pedestrianisation argument is a sideshow to a bigger situation faced by the area - Carnaby Street and Covent Garden do just fine as pedestrianised zones, and the latter is well provided by the tube station and buses along the nearby Strand. I'll still jump on the 29 down to TCR and get shopping in, because my experience of West End shopping has been shaped by three decades of visiting it and I have a fondness for it because of that; principally because it is an experience. I don't see an endgame where the street is a ghost town full of empty units, because whatever happens there is far, far too much money knocking around W1, and the incentive to adapt is there - perhaps a hybrid of smaller high end retail offerings and more street food, 'pop up' events etc. You won't necessarily need to eat into the road space to provide this - the empty shop units will be able to provide plenty of space for it. I don't think the buses need to go, but if they were removed in part I don't think it would finish the street off either. Canarby Street & Covent Garden work as pedestrian areas because they wouldn't really work as a standard road much like the few bits of pedestrianisation in Brixton with half of Popes Road, Electric Avenue, part of Brixton Station Road, a small section of Tunstall Road & majority of Electric Lane which serve the market and many small business surrounding the market. Tunstall Road was done presumably to restrict access to Brixton Road so falls into an entirely different category but these have no effect on traffic levels because they wouldn't be ideal as thoroughfares in the first place. The trouble with Oxford Street is that it's a thoroughfare for taxis & buses just like the roads Brixton bid would like to add (Atlantic Road & Coldharbour Lane) are main thoroughfares that provide important connections especially the latter now that the LTN's have closed off some cut throughs.
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Post by LondonNorthern on Mar 10, 2021 8:31:39 GMT
Also, if people are looking to go shopping, they probably won't find it convenient to have to get on a busy bus with multiple large bags, boxes etc., with it being much more convenient to go in a car or order online Agreed and I think car based areas could always see a modal switch - for example this is why I have previously suggested the 43 be diverted to Friern Barnet Retail Park (though links would be lost) and the 143 extended to Staples Corner Retail Park. Another thing that is killing the high streets is the sort of people the council use to plan - most notably during the pandemic: cycling groups have been the main candidate and this is why I initially supported Rose and that's because I'm sick and tired of certain non political groups having the power over large numbers of people who don't even support their agenda and he at least wanted to stop this trend, but I stopped supporting him for multiple reasons.
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Mar 10, 2021 12:01:26 GMT
Also, if people are looking to go shopping, they probably won't find it convenient to have to get on a busy bus with multiple large bags, boxes etc., with it being much more convenient to go in a car or order online Agreed and I think car based areas could always see a modal switch - for example this is why I have previously suggested the 43 be diverted to Friern Barnet Retail Park (though links would be lost) and the 143 extended to Staples Corner Retail Park. Another thing that is killing the high streets is the sort of people the council use to plan - most notably during the pandemic: cycling groups have been the main candidate and this is why I initially supported Rose and that's because I'm sick and tired of certain non political groups having the power over large numbers of people who don't even support their agenda and he at least wanted to stop this trend, but I stopped supporting him for multiple reasons. I don't think retail parks are somewhere that'll see any switch to buses anytime soon. The retail parks of Beckton don't usually have a huge flow on their buses in comparison to cars, probably why TfL are pursuing removing the 262 and 101 over there. When presented with an option of car or bus, the car wins in this case. Shops are all spread out throughout the retail park, chances are you might be buying some bulky things and you don't want to be dragging these all around a retail park with you when you can just place it in your car boot and manage easily, you can even drive your car through the retail park as you please. Not to mention all of that free parking, Gallions Reach still prides itself on the amount of free parking that is available, and that doesn't even include the Tesco car park! The Charlton retail parks are similar, while the 472 and 486 there fare a lot better than the 101, 262 and 366 in terms of crowds, the bus crowd is still nothing compared to the far large crowd that use cars. The retail park which includes Primark and Next even has free electric charging. I don't see buses ever making a dent in Private transport when it comes to retail parks simply because retail parks in general were designed for cars and buses were more so always seen as a way of transporting staff there as opposed to transporting shoppers there. The Cambridge Road retail parks are similar, they're so big that travelling on public transport there is just cumbersome and it often makes more sense to travel through there in a car.
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Post by ronnie on Mar 10, 2021 14:11:21 GMT
Agreed and I think car based areas could always see a modal switch - for example this is why I have previously suggested the 43 be diverted to Friern Barnet Retail Park (though links would be lost) and the 143 extended to Staples Corner Retail Park. Another thing that is killing the high streets is the sort of people the council use to plan - most notably during the pandemic: cycling groups have been the main candidate and this is why I initially supported Rose and that's because I'm sick and tired of certain non political groups having the power over large numbers of people who don't even support their agenda and he at least wanted to stop this trend, but I stopped supporting him for multiple reasons. I don't think retail parks are somewhere that'll see any switch to buses anytime soon. The retail parks of Beckton don't usually have a huge flow on their buses in comparison to cars, probably why TfL are pursuing removing the 262 and 101 over there. When presented with an option of car or bus, the car wins in this case. Shops are all spread out throughout the retail park, chances are you might be buying some bulky things and you don't want to be dragging these all around a retail park with you when you can just place it in your car boot and manage easily, you can even drive your car through the retail park as you please. Not to mention all of that free parking, Gallions Reach still prides itself on the amount of free parking that is available, and that doesn't even include the Tesco car park! The Charlton retail parks are similar, while the 472 and 486 there fare a lot better than the 101, 262 and 366 in terms of crowds, the bus crowd is still nothing compared to the far large crowd that use cars. The retail park which includes Primark and Next even has free electric charging. I don't see buses ever making a dent in Private transport when it comes to retail parks simply because retail parks in general were designed for cars and buses were more so always seen as a way of transporting staff there as opposed to transporting shoppers there. The Cambridge Road retail parks are similar, they're so big that travelling on public transport there is just cumbersome and it often makes more sense to travel through there in a car. Agree with this In an ideal world with more sensible people, one would have tried to strike some balance between various modes of transport along with an effort to reduce emissions. So walk / cycle for short distances, bus for the usual trip, and car for bulky shopping / family trips / longer distances / when you got to lug the kids around. All of this can co-exist frankly What you don’t want is (a) telling people to cycle from say Romford to Liverpool Street (b) direct all traffic onto a few roads and create traffic chaos (c) remove bus lanes or make buses so slow that people Will just say eff off You need cycling infra but not the “Rip streets out and plant cycle lanes which no one will use unless the weather conditions are exactly right”
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Post by vjaska on Mar 10, 2021 14:34:14 GMT
Agreed and I think car based areas could always see a modal switch - for example this is why I have previously suggested the 43 be diverted to Friern Barnet Retail Park (though links would be lost) and the 143 extended to Staples Corner Retail Park. Another thing that is killing the high streets is the sort of people the council use to plan - most notably during the pandemic: cycling groups have been the main candidate and this is why I initially supported Rose and that's because I'm sick and tired of certain non political groups having the power over large numbers of people who don't even support their agenda and he at least wanted to stop this trend, but I stopped supporting him for multiple reasons. I don't think retail parks are somewhere that'll see any switch to buses anytime soon. The retail parks of Beckton don't usually have a huge flow on their buses in comparison to cars, probably why TfL are pursuing removing the 262 and 101 over there. When presented with an option of car or bus, the car wins in this case. Shops are all spread out throughout the retail park, chances are you might be buying some bulky things and you don't want to be dragging these all around a retail park with you when you can just place it in your car boot and manage easily, you can even drive your car through the retail park as you please. Not to mention all of that free parking, Gallions Reach still prides itself on the amount of free parking that is available, and that doesn't even include the Tesco car park! The Charlton retail parks are similar, while the 472 and 486 there fare a lot better than the 101, 262 and 366 in terms of crowds, the bus crowd is still nothing compared to the far large crowd that use cars. The retail park which includes Primark and Next even has free electric charging. I don't see buses ever making a dent in Private transport when it comes to retail parks simply because retail parks in general were designed for cars and buses were more so always seen as a way of transporting staff there as opposed to transporting shoppers there. The Cambridge Road retail parks are similar, they're so big that travelling on public transport there is just cumbersome and it often makes more sense to travel through there in a car. Long term, I actually think the bus may survive running into retail parks longer than cars - with the trend to online shopping, the whole thing about lugging stuff home will largely disappear outside of supermarket shopping and buses will probably become a almost workers service to & from work or a ride to go and eat out, watch a film, etc. Not all car journeys will disappear but I do think many will providing the right steps are taken. The Peninsula retail parts in North Greenwich & Charlton do have very good bus usage despite the huge delays the area suffers traffic wise - part of me thinks this is because the two parts are literally separated by one stop whereas the various retail parts at Beckton are more further apart.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2021 14:42:59 GMT
I don't think retail parks are somewhere that'll see any switch to buses anytime soon. The retail parks of Beckton don't usually have a huge flow on their buses in comparison to cars, probably why TfL are pursuing removing the 262 and 101 over there. When presented with an option of car or bus, the car wins in this case. Shops are all spread out throughout the retail park, chances are you might be buying some bulky things and you don't want to be dragging these all around a retail park with you when you can just place it in your car boot and manage easily, you can even drive your car through the retail park as you please. Not to mention all of that free parking, Gallions Reach still prides itself on the amount of free parking that is available, and that doesn't even include the Tesco car park! The Charlton retail parks are similar, while the 472 and 486 there fare a lot better than the 101, 262 and 366 in terms of crowds, the bus crowd is still nothing compared to the far large crowd that use cars. The retail park which includes Primark and Next even has free electric charging. I don't see buses ever making a dent in Private transport when it comes to retail parks simply because retail parks in general were designed for cars and buses were more so always seen as a way of transporting staff there as opposed to transporting shoppers there. The Cambridge Road retail parks are similar, they're so big that travelling on public transport there is just cumbersome and it often makes more sense to travel through there in a car. Long term, I actually think the bus may survive running into retail parks longer than cars - with the trend to online shopping, the whole thing about lugging stuff home will largely disappear outside of supermarket shopping and buses will probably become a almost workers service to & from work or a ride to go and eat out, watch a film, etc. Not all car journeys will disappear but I do think many will providing the right steps are taken. The Peninsula retail parts in North Greenwich & Charlton do have very good bus usage despite the huge delays the area suffers traffic wise - part of me thinks this is because the two parts are literally separated by one stop whereas the various retail parts at Beckton are more further apart. Car usage might start to drop as more councils introduce emissions based permits. I wasn't impressed having to pay £100 (Reduced by 40% for the first year) for a parking permit last week. Newham has also made it very difficult to give out visitors permits where you have to log onto a website instead of paper tickets. I believe Meron is also about to start charging for permits. Sometimes seems easier having to use public transport
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2021 15:00:33 GMT
Long term, I actually think the bus may survive running into retail parks longer than cars - with the trend to online shopping, the whole thing about lugging stuff home will largely disappear outside of supermarket shopping and buses will probably become a almost workers service to & from work or a ride to go and eat out, watch a film, etc. Not all car journeys will disappear but I do think many will providing the right steps are taken. The Peninsula retail parts in North Greenwich & Charlton do have very good bus usage despite the huge delays the area suffers traffic wise - part of me thinks this is because the two parts are literally separated by one stop whereas the various retail parts at Beckton are more further apart. Car usage might start to drop as more councils introduce emissions based permits. I wasn't impressed having to pay £100 (Reduced by 40% for the first year) for a parking permit last week. Newham has also made it very difficult to give out visitors permits where you have to log onto a website instead of paper tickets. I believe Meron is also about to start charging for permits. Sometimes seems easier having to use public transport Merton has charged for permits for a while now, ranges from £65 to £120 for the first car and up to an additional £210 for a third car depending on the zone. Annual visitor passes go up to £350 but you can also get daily ones for £5 again depending on the zone. It mostly affects the Wimbledon side of the borough with some roads in Mitcham and Morden town centres affected as well. £100 with a 40% discount sounds cheap compared to Merton. 😆😆
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