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Post by richard on Jul 26, 2021 22:46:03 GMT
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Post by buspete on Jul 27, 2021 1:04:21 GMT
So if there is to be no special access fee to enter Heathrow area, then is it worth keeping the Heathrow Express? The Heathrow would be better served being absorbed in Crossrail. You might as well extend all the trains that terminate at Paddington run to Heathrow and have 18 trains an hour to Heathrow. Say 12tph to Heathrow T5 and 6tph to Heathrow T4.
I never saw any point of turning trains at Paddington
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Post by Dstock7080 on Jul 27, 2021 6:18:39 GMT
Whitechapel station is due to be handed over to TfL/LU on Mon 23 August, opening the new ticket hall and bringing step-free access to LU and LO.
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Post by wirewiper on Jul 27, 2021 8:44:15 GMT
So if there is to be no special access fee to enter Heathrow area, then is it worth keeping the Heathrow Express? The Heathrow would be better served being absorbed in Crossrail. You might as well extend all the trains that terminate at Paddington run to Heathrow and have 18 trains an hour to Heathrow. Say 12tph to Heathrow T5 and 6tph to Heathrow T4. I never saw any point of turning trains at Paddington I would keep Heathrow Express, it does have a use as it enables connections to trains heading west. Not everyone wants to use the RailAir coach to and from Reading especially as you have to exit the terminals to pick it up.
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Post by busman on Jul 27, 2021 11:36:53 GMT
So if there is to be no special access fee to enter Heathrow area, then is it worth keeping the Heathrow Express? The Heathrow would be better served being absorbed in Crossrail. You might as well extend all the trains that terminate at Paddington run to Heathrow and have 18 trains an hour to Heathrow. Say 12tph to Heathrow T5 and 6tph to Heathrow T4. I never saw any point of turning trains at Paddington I would keep Heathrow Express, it does have a use as it enables connections to trains heading west. Not everyone wants to use the RailAir coach to and from Reading especially as you have to exit the terminals to pick it up. Also some passengers (myself included) like to get to and from Heathrow as quickly as possible when travelling for business. Heathrow Express is worth the premium for me. Fifteen minutes, a nice comfortable seat, luggage space and not having to shuffle over to accommodate new passengers picked up along the way is a great benefit. I guess Heathrow Express usage will be monitored once the Elizabeth line opens, but I predict it will continue to thrive.
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Post by ADH45258 on Jul 27, 2021 11:59:09 GMT
I would keep Heathrow Express, it does have a use as it enables connections to trains heading west. Not everyone wants to use the RailAir coach to and from Reading especially as you have to exit the terminals to pick it up. Also some passengers (myself included) like to get to and from Heathrow as quickly as possible when travelling for business. Heathrow Express is worth the premium for me. Fifteen minutes, a nice comfortable seat, luggage space and not having to shuffle over to accommodate new passengers picked up along the way is a great benefit. I guess Heathrow Express usage will be monitored once the Elizabeth line opens, but I predict it will continue to thrive. If Heathrow Express were to be incorporated into Crossrail, could these extra services continue to run non-stop, or even limited stop e.g. Hayes and Ealing Broadway only? The only issue might be if trains can easily get from the fast lines into the new tunnels. Since GWR have starting running the Heathrow Express, I think it is on a fixed term contract, so when that runs out, perhaps replacement might be considered. Heathrow Express already now has the slight downgrade of the 387s compared to the 332s, and I expect having a through service beyond Paddington will be more attractive to many current express passengers.
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Post by ADH45258 on Jul 27, 2021 12:08:11 GMT
So if there is to be no special access fee to enter Heathrow area, then is it worth keeping the Heathrow Express? The Heathrow would be better served being absorbed in Crossrail. You might as well extend all the trains that terminate at Paddington run to Heathrow and have 18 trains an hour to Heathrow. Say 12tph to Heathrow T5 and 6tph to Heathrow T4. I never saw any point of turning trains at Paddington I would keep Heathrow Express, it does have a use as it enables connections to trains heading west. Not everyone wants to use the RailAir coach to and from Reading especially as you have to exit the terminals to pick it up. From Reading to Heathrow, it's probably a similar journey time to instead take a semi-fast GWR service to Hayes & Harlington and change there for TFL/Crossrail to Heathrow. Might be easier than going into Paddington.
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Post by busman on Jul 27, 2021 12:08:36 GMT
Also some passengers (myself included) like to get to and from Heathrow as quickly as possible when travelling for business. Heathrow Express is worth the premium for me. Fifteen minutes, a nice comfortable seat, luggage space and not having to shuffle over to accommodate new passengers picked up along the way is a great benefit. I guess Heathrow Express usage will be monitored once the Elizabeth line opens, but I predict it will continue to thrive. If Heathrow Express were to be incorporated into Crossrail, could these extra services continue to run non-stop, or even limited stop e.g. Hayes and Ealing Broadway only? The only issue might be if trains can easily get from the fast lines into the new tunnels. Since GWR have starting running the Heathrow Express, I think it is on a fixed term contract, so when that runs out, perhaps replacement might be considered. Heathrow Express already now has the slight downgrade of the 387s compared to the 332s, and I expect having a through service beyond Paddington will be more attractive to many current express passengers. If Heathrow Express is able to charge a premium and there is enough demand for it, why change? Fifteen minutes, non-stop, dedicated platforms, in relative peace and comfort is an attractive value proposition over a taxi/PHV or TfL Rail. Heathrow Express should only be absorbed into the Elizabeth Line if a significant drop in passenger levels occurs, to the extent where operating margins make it less valuable as a standalone service. I’m speaking as a user of Heathrow Express services, not as someone speculating over service patterns or looking for ways for TfL to monopolise revenue between Heathrow and Paddington. Heathrow Express caters for a different type of passenger than the Piccadilly line and Elizabeth line. The reviews on Trip Advisor give you an idea of the sentiment of users. We are happy to pay the cost of a Heathrow Express ticket, as long as the experience is of sufficiently high quality.
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Post by buspete on Jul 27, 2021 23:12:55 GMT
One issue with the Heathrow Express is that you have to get to Paddington to use it, this isn’t always easy. If you come in to Kings Cross is the Heathrow Express anymore quicker than the Piccadilly Line? If you come into Victoria/Charing Cross/Cannon Street/Blackfriars is there any time savings over the District/Piccadilly. Liverpool Street people will just use Crossrail directly rather than a laborious change. When Crossrail does fully open, it will take a lot of customers away from the Heathrow Express, maybe up to half, a lot of people would not be happy to pay the hefty premium for a Express service and would rather save £10? If I just miss the Heathrow Express, then it is a 14 minutes wait and any benefits are lost.
I see no point in terminating half the Crossrail service at Paddington.
If the Heathrow did get absorbed into Crossrail the non stop express would be lost and the extra trains would run down the local line and make extra stops, this would be more than compensated by a more frequent service 18 tph to Heathrow.
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Post by vjaska on Jul 28, 2021 1:16:53 GMT
One issue with the Heathrow Express is that you have to get to Paddington to use it, this isn’t always easy. If you come in to Kings Cross is the Heathrow Express anymore quicker than the Piccadilly Line? If you come into Victoria/Charing Cross/Cannon Street/Blackfriars is there any time savings over the District/Piccadilly. Liverpool Street people will just use Crossrail directly rather than a laborious change. When Crossrail does fully open, it will take a lot of customers away from the Heathrow Express, maybe up to half, a lot of people would not be happy to pay the hefty premium for a Express service and would rather save £10? If I just miss the Heathrow Express, then it is a 14 minutes wait and any benefits are lost. I see no point in terminating half the Crossrail service at Paddington. If the Heathrow did get absorbed into Crossrail the non stop express would be lost and the extra trains would run down the local line and make extra stops, this would be more than compensated by a more frequent service 18 tph to Heathrow. King's Cross to Heathrow via tube to Paddington then Heathrow Express is much quicker - Piccadilly Line has numerous stops to serve plus you need to factor in the waiting at Acton Town that many Piccadilly Line trains do. So whilst I wouldn't do that journey myself, I can see why others would - you need to remember that Heathrow Express isn't aimed at me or you but at a premium market where people don't want to sit on a stopping or even semi-stopping service among the normals and would happily pay a premium price to do so. I can't sit here and clearly say it will take away customers from Heathrow Express because if that was the case, surely it would of been massively hit when Heathrow Connect was a thing and then even hit more when TfL Rail took over the Heathrow Connect service not to mention whenever Oyster made it's way down to Heathrow via rail - it's certainly one to watch.
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Post by mkay315 on Jul 28, 2021 8:10:33 GMT
One issue with the Heathrow Express is that you have to get to Paddington to use it, this isn’t always easy. If you come in to Kings Cross is the Heathrow Express anymore quicker than the Piccadilly Line? If you come into Victoria/Charing Cross/Cannon Street/Blackfriars is there any time savings over the District/Piccadilly. Liverpool Street people will just use Crossrail directly rather than a laborious change. When Crossrail does fully open, it will take a lot of customers away from the Heathrow Express, maybe up to half, a lot of people would not be happy to pay the hefty premium for a Express service and would rather save £10? If I just miss the Heathrow Express, then it is a 14 minutes wait and any benefits are lost. I see no point in terminating half the Crossrail service at Paddington. If the Heathrow did get absorbed into Crossrail the non stop express would be lost and the extra trains would run down the local line and make extra stops, this would be more than compensated by a more frequent service 18 tph to Heathrow. I think this setup is quite similar to the Overground between Highbury and Islington to Surrey Quays where there's a frequent service in the core route of that line and then the services are split into 4 parts. You have to remember they're sharing lines with GWR and also most people are going to use the line in the centre of the line. Another example is the Bakerloo Line where majority of the trains run as far as Queens Park. This is because after Queens Park network rail maintain that line so they wouldn't need as many trains on the bakerloo line to run it full to Harrow and Wealdstone with the Overground DC line running along side it.
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Post by busman on Jul 28, 2021 18:12:47 GMT
One issue with the Heathrow Express is that you have to get to Paddington to use it, this isn’t always easy. If you come in to Kings Cross is the Heathrow Express anymore quicker than the Piccadilly Line? If you come into Victoria/Charing Cross/Cannon Street/Blackfriars is there any time savings over the District/Piccadilly. Liverpool Street people will just use Crossrail directly rather than a laborious change. When Crossrail does fully open, it will take a lot of customers away from the Heathrow Express, maybe up to half, a lot of people would not be happy to pay the hefty premium for a Express service and would rather save £10? If I just miss the Heathrow Express, then it is a 14 minutes wait and any benefits are lost. I see no point in terminating half the Crossrail service at Paddington. If the Heathrow did get absorbed into Crossrail the non stop express would be lost and the extra trains would run down the local line and make extra stops, this would be more than compensated by a more frequent service 18 tph to Heathrow. King's Cross to Heathrow via tube to Paddington then Heathrow Express is much quicker - Piccadilly Line has numerous stops to serve plus you need to factor in the waiting at Acton Town that many Piccadilly Line trains do. So whilst I wouldn't do that journey myself, I can see why others would - you need to remember that Heathrow Express isn't aimed at me or you but at a premium market where people don't want to sit on a stopping or even semi-stopping service among the normals and would happily pay a premium price to do so. I can't sit here and clearly say it will take away customers from Heathrow Express because if that was the case, surely it would of been massively hit when Heathrow Connect was a thing and then even hit more when TfL Rail took over the Heathrow Connect service not to mention whenever Oyster made it's way down to Heathrow via rail - it's certainly one to watch. Exactly this. Heathrow Connect didn’t cut it, much in the same way TfL Rail doesn’t and is not a replacement for Heathrow Express. Getting a bit bored of people who clearly don’t use Heathrow Express commenting that it is too expensive and it should be integrated into the Elizabeth Line. If anything, I see the Elizabeth Line freeing up capacity on the crowded Piccadilly Line.
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Post by ADH45258 on Jul 28, 2021 18:51:33 GMT
King's Cross to Heathrow via tube to Paddington then Heathrow Express is much quicker - Piccadilly Line has numerous stops to serve plus you need to factor in the waiting at Acton Town that many Piccadilly Line trains do. So whilst I wouldn't do that journey myself, I can see why others would - you need to remember that Heathrow Express isn't aimed at me or you but at a premium market where people don't want to sit on a stopping or even semi-stopping service among the normals and would happily pay a premium price to do so. I can't sit here and clearly say it will take away customers from Heathrow Express because if that was the case, surely it would of been massively hit when Heathrow Connect was a thing and then even hit more when TfL Rail took over the Heathrow Connect service not to mention whenever Oyster made it's way down to Heathrow via rail - it's certainly one to watch. Exactly this. Heathrow Connect didn’t cut it, much in the same way TfL Rail doesn’t and is not a replacement for Heathrow Express. Getting a bit bored of people who clearly don’t use Heathrow Express commenting that it is too expensive and it should be integrated into the Elizabeth Line. If anything, I see the Elizabeth Line freeing up capacity on the crowded Piccadilly Line. Heathrow Express clearly serves some purpose now. GWR's contract to run it lasts until 2028, so I expect this is intended to give an overlap with the introduction of Crossrail to see how passenger numbers might be affected. If usage on the express does significantly decline, as some have suggested, then maybe that contract would not be renewed, replaced by extra crossrail services instead. Or a review might instead reduce Heathrow Express to 2tph. Elizabeth Line services to Reading, while using the slow lines, will have limited stops. If the Heathrow Express services were to be replaced by Crossrail, these could perhaps call only at Ealing Broadway and Hayes & Harlington, so maintain at some form of faster service. I think it's important to have a good frequency of trains between Heathrow and Hayes, to offer interchange for journeys towards Reading without having to go into central London. And with the Kings Cross to Heathrow example previously mentioned, while some passengers will continue to use the express, I think many could switch to Crossrail by changing at Farringdon.
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Post by buspete on Jul 28, 2021 22:53:50 GMT
The Kings Cross example I gave. I know the Piccadilly Line is slow and laborious and stops at many stations, but it is a one seat ride and takes about an hour, where the Heathrow Express takes between 40-60 minutes, depending of you just miss one and is a two seat ride.
At present people travelling from Canary Wharf who would be more inclined to use the Heathrow Express, but using the Jubilee Line and changing on Bakerloo/H&C Line, which is not a easy 3 seat ride and will just use Crossrail, which is a direct link, same with people in the city who will use Liverpool Street/Moorgate.
Heathrow Connect is a bad example, as you still have to change at Paddington.
GWR contract can be terminated, more so now it has been ‘nationalised.’
Crossrail will take many people away, as it will be more Convenient.
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Post by buspete on Jul 28, 2021 22:59:13 GMT
King's Cross to Heathrow via tube to Paddington then Heathrow Express is much quicker - Piccadilly Line has numerous stops to serve plus you need to factor in the waiting at Acton Town that many Piccadilly Line trains do. So whilst I wouldn't do that journey myself, I can see why others would - you need to remember that Heathrow Express isn't aimed at me or you but at a premium market where people don't want to sit on a stopping or even semi-stopping service among the normals and would happily pay a premium price to do so. I can't sit here and clearly say it will take away customers from Heathrow Express because if that was the case, surely it would of been massively hit when Heathrow Connect was a thing and then even hit more when TfL Rail took over the Heathrow Connect service not to mention whenever Oyster made it's way down to Heathrow via rail - it's certainly one to watch. Exactly this. Heathrow Connect didn’t cut it, much in the same way TfL Rail doesn’t and is not a replacement for Heathrow Express. Getting a bit bored of people who clearly don’t use Heathrow Express commenting that it is too expensive and it should be integrated into the Elizabeth Line. If anything, I see the Elizabeth Line freeing up capacity on the crowded Piccadilly Line. Okay sorry you’re getting bored, other conversations are available on other threads. Or as you are a great user of the Heathrow Express, maybe you may want to enlighten me - where Heathrow Express is more beneficial apart from the Paddington/Marylebone area.
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