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Post by N230UD on Jan 28, 2018 21:18:25 GMT
I'm no expert on these matters, but I think using smaller buses on some evening journeys would be wise for fuel consumption (although, this may just benefit the operator rather than TfL).
Stagecoach East Kent do this on a few routes (obviously their operating territory is rather different to London). Routes that are double deck during the day, usually have smaller buses in the late evenings (if they are lucky to have an evening service!). For example, the Breeze 8/8A routes are double-deck during the day (and are needed), but Enviro200s (from the Thanet Loop) are used in the late evenings (about 19.30-24.00). The reason for this is of the lower fuel consumption.
If this was to happen in London, obviously it would depend on the depot operating the route having enough single deckers available in the evening to cover the route. Also, it would depend on the dead mileage - if there was a lot of dead mileage involved to swap the doubles for singles, it might not be worth while. It would also depend on how busy the evening services are, as many routes are very busy. Even in East Kent, the smaller evening buses can have standing passengers, but most of the time are more than big enough for the amount of passengers. Some suburban routes, such as the 20 might benefit from singles in the evenings.
Also, I think TfL should make it easier for 'cross-boundary' routes to operate. As TfL are cutting back the cross-boundary routes, the boundary is getting more prominent. If it was easier for commercial operators to be allowed to operate over the border, this might 'bridge the gap' a bit more.
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Post by snoggle on Jan 28, 2018 23:16:24 GMT
I'm no expert on these matters, but I think using smaller buses on some evening journeys would be wise for fuel consumption (although, this may just benefit the operator rather than TfL). Stagecoach East Kent do this on a few routes (obviously their operating territory is rather different to London). Routes that are double deck during the day, usually have smaller buses in the late evenings (if they are lucky to have an evening service!). For example, the Breeze 8/8A routes are double-deck during the day (and are needed), but Enviro200s (from the Thanet Loop) are used in the late evenings (about 19.30-24.00). The reason for this is of the lower fuel consumption. If this was to happen in London, obviously it would depend on the depot operating the route having enough single deckers available in the evening to cover the route. Also, it would depend on the dead mileage - if there was a lot of dead mileage involved to swap the doubles for singles, it might not be worth while. It would also depend on how busy the evening services are, as many routes are very busy. Even in East Kent, the smaller evening buses can have standing passengers, but most of the time are more than big enough for the amount of passengers. Some suburban routes, such as the 20 might benefit from singles in the evenings. Also, I think TfL should make it easier for 'cross-boundary' routes to operate. As TfL are cutting back the cross-boundary routes, the boundary is getting more prominent. If it was easier for commercial operators to be allowed to operate over the border, this might 'bridge the gap' a bit more. Single deckers on the 20 are fine until the Central Line goes "tits up" and then they can't cope as people divert to other routes. Part of the problem with fuel consumption savings is that TfL see no immediate benefit. Contract prices include an escalator for fuel price increases plus all of the big groups hedge fuel prices years in advance. Hedging can, of course, go wrong if the oil price throws a wobbly. To gain any benefit TfL would have to specify variant vehicle sizes at the time of retender to gain the benefit of competitive pressure on fuel costs within the contract price. Trying to renegotiate a fuel saving mid contract would be a tiresome exercise for all parties. |
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Post by busaholic on Jan 28, 2018 23:39:14 GMT
I'm no expert on these matters, but I think using smaller buses on some evening journeys would be wise for fuel consumption (although, this may just benefit the operator rather than TfL). Stagecoach East Kent do this on a few routes (obviously their operating territory is rather different to London). Routes that are double deck during the day, usually have smaller buses in the late evenings (if they are lucky to have an evening service!). For example, the Breeze 8/8A routes are double-deck during the day (and are needed), but Enviro200s (from the Thanet Loop) are used in the late evenings (about 19.30-24.00). The reason for this is of the lower fuel consumption. If this was to happen in London, obviously it would depend on the depot operating the route having enough single deckers available in the evening to cover the route. Also, it would depend on the dead mileage - if there was a lot of dead mileage involved to swap the doubles for singles, it might not be worth while. It would also depend on how busy the evening services are, as many routes are very busy. Even in East Kent, the smaller evening buses can have standing passengers, but most of the time are more than big enough for the amount of passengers. Some suburban routes, such as the 20 might benefit from singles in the evenings. Also, I think TfL should make it easier for 'cross-boundary' routes to operate. As TfL are cutting back the cross-boundary routes, the boundary is getting more prominent. If it was easier for commercial operators to be allowed to operate over the border, this might 'bridge the gap' a bit more. When the 9 was still Routemaster operated (I don't mean the Heritage stuff) it latterly had small single deckers allocated in the evening, the size of those that ran around on the 28 and 31 at the time. In my experience, they ran in 3's and, just as well, then you might just get on one. I don't believe it saved money as the theoretical headway had to be altered up. |
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Post by sid on Jan 28, 2018 23:49:31 GMT
I'm no expert on these matters, but I think using smaller buses on some evening journeys would be wise for fuel consumption (although, this may just benefit the operator rather than TfL). Stagecoach East Kent do this on a few routes (obviously their operating territory is rather different to London). Routes that are double deck during the day, usually have smaller buses in the late evenings (if they are lucky to have an evening service!). For example, the Breeze 8/8A routes are double-deck during the day (and are needed), but Enviro200s (from the Thanet Loop) are used in the late evenings (about 19.30-24.00). The reason for this is of the lower fuel consumption. If this was to happen in London, obviously it would depend on the depot operating the route having enough single deckers available in the evening to cover the route. Also, it would depend on the dead mileage - if there was a lot of dead mileage involved to swap the doubles for singles, it might not be worth while. It would also depend on how busy the evening services are, as many routes are very busy. Even in East Kent, the smaller evening buses can have standing passengers, but most of the time are more than big enough for the amount of passengers. Some suburban routes, such as the 20 might benefit from singles in the evenings. Also, I think TfL should make it easier for 'cross-boundary' routes to operate. As TfL are cutting back the cross-boundary routes, the boundary is getting more prominent. If it was easier for commercial operators to be allowed to operate over the border, this might 'bridge the gap' a bit more. When the 9 was still Routemaster operated (I don't mean the Heritage stuff) it latterly had small single deckers allocated in the evening, the size of those that ran around on the 28 and 31 at the time. In my experience, they ran in 3's and, just as well, then you might just get on one. I don't believe it saved money as the theoretical headway had to be altered up. The 7 was also minibus operated in the evening for a time, not really an obvious choice but there certainly is plenty of potential for using single deckers on some suburban routes in the evening. |
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Post by kmkcheng on Jan 29, 2018 0:20:25 GMT
When the 9 was still Routemaster operated (I don't mean the Heritage stuff) it latterly had small single deckers allocated in the evening, the size of those that ran around on the 28 and 31 at the time. In my experience, they ran in 3's and, just as well, then you might just get on one. I don't believe it saved money as the theoretical headway had to be altered up. The 7 was also minibus operated in the evening for a time, not really an obvious choice but there certainly is plenty of potential for using single deckers on some suburban routes in the evening. I maybe wrong but I thought the 7 was only midibus operated in the evening because there wasn’t enough double deckers available. |
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Post by redexpress on Jan 29, 2018 1:21:30 GMT
I'm no expert on these matters, but I think using smaller buses on some evening journeys would be wise for fuel consumption (although, this may just benefit the operator rather than TfL). Stagecoach East Kent do this on a few routes (obviously their operating territory is rather different to London). Routes that are double deck during the day, usually have smaller buses in the late evenings (if they are lucky to have an evening service!). For example, the Breeze 8/8A routes are double-deck during the day (and are needed), but Enviro200s (from the Thanet Loop) are used in the late evenings (about 19.30-24.00). The reason for this is of the lower fuel consumption. If this was to happen in London, obviously it would depend on the depot operating the route having enough single deckers available in the evening to cover the route. Also, it would depend on the dead mileage - if there was a lot of dead mileage involved to swap the doubles for singles, it might not be worth while. It would also depend on how busy the evening services are, as many routes are very busy. Even in East Kent, the smaller evening buses can have standing passengers, but most of the time are more than big enough for the amount of passengers. Some suburban routes, such as the 20 might benefit from singles in the evenings. Also, I think TfL should make it easier for 'cross-boundary' routes to operate. As TfL are cutting back the cross-boundary routes, the boundary is getting more prominent. If it was easier for commercial operators to be allowed to operate over the border, this might 'bridge the gap' a bit more. When the 9 was still Routemaster operated (I don't mean the Heritage stuff) it latterly had small single deckers allocated in the evening, the size of those that ran around on the 28 and 31 at the time. In my experience, they ran in 3's and, just as well, then you might just get on one. I don't believe it saved money as the theoretical headway had to be altered up. In the case of the 9 the main reason for using small Darts was the weight restriction on Hammersmith Bridge; in those days the evening & Sunday service on the 9 ran through to Mortlake while the 9A (today's 209) didn't run at those times. The 9 reverted to DD at all times when the 9A became the 209 and gained an evening & Sunday service. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2018 4:41:44 GMT
When the 9 was still Routemaster operated (I don't mean the Heritage stuff) it latterly had small single deckers allocated in the evening, the size of those that ran around on the 28 and 31 at the time. In my experience, they ran in 3's and, just as well, then you might just get on one. I don't believe it saved money as the theoretical headway had to be altered up. In the case of the 9 the main reason for using small Darts was the weight restriction on Hammersmith Bridge; in those days the evening & Sunday service on the 9 ran through to Mortlake while the 9A (today's 209) didn't run at those times. The 9 reverted to DD at all times when the 9A became the 209 and gained an evening & Sunday service. That plus London United closed Shepherds Bush Garage on Sunday’s for a while, the 220 was operated with DR’s from Wood Lane ( along with the 72 ) with the DT’s from Riverside Bus at V used on the 9 on Sundays running through to Mortlake in place of the 9A which was MonSat ex eves ( MS eves the 9 was DR operated from B) FW has a brief allocation on the 9 (MS eves) and 9A (MS ex eves) during crew shortages at S. I concur with the running in three comment. At that point in time, Stamford Brook had a large allocation out on Sundays covering the 9,27 & 94. Reliability was dire. I fondly recall being stuck on M204 on a 27 in solid traffic one Sunday evening. The controller called the driver and asked why he wasn’t at Stamford Brook yet for the changeover. His exasperated reply explaining he was still at Baker Street said it all for all of us stuck on that wretched bus. |
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Post by twobellstogo on Jan 29, 2018 7:47:56 GMT
alex397 - absolutely, re cross-boundary services. Should be much easier to register services from well out of London that terminate at specified places in the TfL area - e.g. Erith, Crayford, Sidcup, Orpington, Croydon, Sutton, Kingston, Heathrow, Uxbridge etc.
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Post by sid on Jan 29, 2018 7:56:04 GMT
The 7 was also minibus operated in the evening for a time, not really an obvious choice but there certainly is plenty of potential for using single deckers on some suburban routes in the evening. I maybe wrong but I thought the 7 was only midibus operated in the evening because there wasn’t enough double deckers available. Yes I think that was the case and if I remember correctly Routemasters returned in the evening until the 7 was converted to full OPO? |
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Post by John tuthill on Jan 29, 2018 10:48:43 GMT
I maybe wrong but I thought the 7 was only midibus operated in the evening because there wasn’t enough double deckers available. Yes I think that was the case and if I remember correctly Routemasters returned in the evening until the 7 was converted to full OPO? Ian Armstrongs excellent bus page shows the 7 between 1993 and 2002 as being an "Evening Route" picture from his page for route 7 Attachment Deleted |
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Post by M1199 on Jan 29, 2018 10:58:10 GMT
Yes I think that was the case and if I remember correctly Routemasters returned in the evening until the 7 was converted to full OPO? Ian Armstrongs excellent bus page shows the 7 between 1993 and 2002 as being an "Evening Route" picture from his page for route 7 View Attachment Also on a Sunday, AT ran the service for a while (a year or so if I remember rightly) until X had enough OPO vehicles. I remember walking down Oxford Street on Sunday afternoon and seeing all these Uxbridge Buses branded TNL's and couldn't work out what was going on! Routes like the U4/U5 could utilise Single deckers during the evening run out, well the U5 shouldn't have DD's at all imo, but thats another story. |
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Post by redexpress on Jan 29, 2018 12:48:28 GMT
I maybe wrong but I thought the 7 was only midibus operated in the evening because there wasn’t enough double deckers available. Yes I think that was the case and if I remember correctly Routemasters returned in the evening until the 7 was converted to full OPO? It didn't regain Routemasters, but when X gained additional OPO DDs (for the 295 and 414) these started to be used in the evenings instead of Darts. The Dart-operated evening service on the 7 was dire - it was one of my local routes at the time. There was little monitoring, if any, of late evening services back then, and drivers seemed to regard the Russell Square end of the route as being an optional extra to be covered only if they fancied it  |
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Post by sid on Jan 29, 2018 15:50:06 GMT
Yes I think that was the case and if I remember correctly Routemasters returned in the evening until the 7 was converted to full OPO? It didn't regain Routemasters, but when X gained additional OPO DDs (for the 295 and 414) these started to be used in the evenings instead of Darts. The Dart-operated evening service on the 7 was dire - it was one of my local routes at the time. There was little monitoring, if any, of late evening services back then, and drivers seemed to regard the Russell Square end of the route as being an optional extra to be covered only if they fancied it I spoke to Leon Daniels personally when he was MD at Centrewest about minibuses on the 7 and he agreed that they were inadequate and said that double deckers would be returning in the evenings. I didn't know about drivers missing out part of the route (presumably Leon didn't either?) and I would imagine that would be an out the door offence if they were found out? |
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Post by redexpress on Jan 29, 2018 16:07:33 GMT
It didn't regain Routemasters, but when X gained additional OPO DDs (for the 295 and 414) these started to be used in the evenings instead of Darts. The Dart-operated evening service on the 7 was dire - it was one of my local routes at the time. There was little monitoring, if any, of late evening services back then, and drivers seemed to regard the Russell Square end of the route as being an optional extra to be covered only if they fancied it I spoke to Leon Daniels personally when he was MD at Centrewest about minibuses on the 7 and he agreed that they were inadequate and said that double deckers would be returning in the evenings. I didn't know about drivers missing out part of the route (presumably Leon didn't either?) and I would imagine that would be an out the door offence if they were found out? Yes in hindsight I should have made a complaint about the unofficial curtailments. One occasion that stuck in my mind was when I was the only passenger still on board at TCR, the driver had a quick look but didn't notice that I was there, and started to head straight up Tottenham Court Road. When I challenged him he claimed to have "just" received a call from his controller, which was an outright lie (I was sitting close enough to the cab to have heard any call). On many other occasions buses that were blinded for Russell Square would empty out at Oxford Circus without warning. In all cases the buses headed back empty to X - clearly just a case of drivers being in a hurry to finish. In fairness there may have been a genuine reason to curtail if there was an issue with drivers' hours being breached, but these were the last trips of the evening, so these curtailments should really not have been happening. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2018 18:13:38 GMT
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