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Post by busaholic on May 12, 2019 20:27:39 GMT
This is a genuine question, which may be considered naive, but I'm asking on the basis that I no longer have any connections with the area where I was spawned and developed my fascination with London buses (and all other transport in London).It concerns the 161, because alone of the bus routes I grew up with in Eltham it retains its core structure (the 124 and 126 do too to a lesser extent). I am assumimg the extension to North Greenwich was mainly aimed at taking the existing 161 passengers to the Jubilee Line station: in which case, in which direction were the majority of these passengers expected to travel on the tube? Surely it wasn't in the westbound direction, given that London Bridge, Waterloo and, even, Charing Cross or its near environs were much quicker reached from Eltham and Mottingham stations on the SE network? So, if I'm right, it was Canary Wharf and other eastbound stations that were the attraction, even though trains in the morning rush hour would be pretty full by the time they reached North Greenwich. Since then, Canary Wharf has also been able to be accessed via DLR from Woolwich Arsenal, with a change at Poplar, while the 132 bus route eventually got extended to North Greenwich, giving those in the Eltham area another, theoretically quicker, bus route to NG. So, my question now concerns the 161, Crossrail and its Woolwich to Canary Wharf direct connection. I note that the 161 now only has a bus every 10 minutes during the day, which I find incredibly sad compared to what I remember, in peak hours at least. I would have thought that Crossrail at Woolwich would not only be a magnet to those Canary Wharf passengers but, given its frequency and the range of destinations eg. Whitechapel, Liverpool Street and Farringdon, perhaps less so further west than that, to those who might consider it an alternative to both the Jubilee and SE train services. So, on to my question at last: how near to Woolwich Arsenal Station does the 161 currently get, and how near could it get if re-directed at Woolwich to travel along the Plumstead Road? Fare zones obviously have some influence, but time is money and there are many better-heeled who'd go for extra convenience over the rock bottom fare.I can see the 161 gaining a lot of extra passengers, but TfL seem not to have allowed for this in their consultation on SE London bus services after Crossrail. A 161 Express, non-stop from Well Hall Roundabout or Shooters Hill, in peak hours to Woolwich Arsenal might even be called for, with echoes of the Second World War service of that number for the Arsenal munitions workers! Thoughts please and be scathing if you so wish. I think the main reason the 161 will continue to go to NG has nothing to do with the Jubilee line and everything to do with parts of Woolwich Dockyard having a direct link to the hospital. Fair enough, but I'd have thought that could be covered in another way. |
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Post by vjaska on May 12, 2019 20:44:56 GMT
As for a route along the A205, how about this? 402: Woolwich to Catford 404: Eltham to Forest Hill 411: Catford to Brixton They should reintroduce the N75, and have it run from North Greenwich, they should also have the 227 made into a Weekend only 24 hour route, especially if it’s extended to Streatham, but even without that, Bromley, Beckenham and Crystal Palace does have a night scene with plenty of bars, pubs and restaurants. I have to say I don't get this fixation for bus routes along the South Circular, if anybody wants to do Eltham to Forest Hill by bus it's an easy change of buses at Catford although the train with a change at London Bridge is probably quicker. I think the N47 should be rerouted to Croydon as per the 75, more cost effective and more links. The N3 already links Bromley, Beckenham and Crystal Palace. It all depends on what part of the South Circular and the links being provided - Brixton to Catford is awkward by train when compared to running a direct bus service and Stanstead Road has bus lanes on both sides avoiding a lot of the traffic - the worst bit would be St. Dunstans College to Canadian Avenue. Remember that not everyone can use or afford the train plus South London's train network is very unreliable. |
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Post by sid on May 12, 2019 21:26:34 GMT
I have to say I don't get this fixation for bus routes along the South Circular, if anybody wants to do Eltham to Forest Hill by bus it's an easy change of buses at Catford although the train with a change at London Bridge is probably quicker. I think the N47 should be rerouted to Croydon as per the 75, more cost effective and more links. The N3 already links Bromley, Beckenham and Crystal Palace. It all depends on what part of the South Circular and the links being provided - Brixton to Catford is awkward by train when compared to running a direct bus service and Stanstead Road has bus lanes on both sides avoiding a lot of the traffic - the worst bit would be St. Dunstans College to Canadian Avenue. Remember that not everyone can use or afford the train plus South London's train network is very unreliable. I don't think it's fair to say that South London's train network is very unreliable. |
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Post by vjaska on May 12, 2019 21:32:00 GMT
It all depends on what part of the South Circular and the links being provided - Brixton to Catford is awkward by train when compared to running a direct bus service and Stanstead Road has bus lanes on both sides avoiding a lot of the traffic - the worst bit would be St. Dunstans College to Canadian Avenue. Remember that not everyone can use or afford the train plus South London's train network is very unreliable. I don't think it's fair to say that South London's train network is very unreliable. Really? I've rarely heard good words about SWT's predecessor, Southern or South Eastern over the years. |
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Post by busaholic on May 12, 2019 21:36:02 GMT
I have to say I don't get this fixation for bus routes along the South Circular, if anybody wants to do Eltham to Forest Hill by bus it's an easy change of buses at Catford although the train with a change at London Bridge is probably quicker. I think the N47 should be rerouted to Croydon as per the 75, more cost effective and more links. The N3 already links Bromley, Beckenham and Crystal Palace. It all depends on what part of the South Circular and the links being provided - Brixton to Catford is awkward by train when compared to running a direct bus service and Stanstead Road has bus lanes on both sides avoiding a lot of the traffic - the worst bit would be St. Dunstans College to Canadian Avenue. Remember that not everyone can use or afford the train plus South London's train network is very unreliable. Brixton to Catford isn't a journey I'd consider doing any part of by train in normal circumstances, but, if I did, I suppose Loughborough Junction would be the best solution, unless you just missed the train there: otherwise, training it first to Penge East and the 75. The problem with rail services in the area is a combination of reliability and the demands of trying to run services to different places from the one suburban station, meaning that you often only get 2 tph on the corridor you wish to use. |
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Post by route53 on May 12, 2019 21:49:42 GMT
It all depends on what part of the South Circular and the links being provided - Brixton to Catford is awkward by train when compared to running a direct bus service and Stanstead Road has bus lanes on both sides avoiding a lot of the traffic - the worst bit would be St. Dunstans College to Canadian Avenue. Remember that not everyone can use or afford the train plus South London's train network is very unreliable. Brixton to Catford isn't a journey I'd consider doing any part of by train in normal circumstances, but, if I did, I suppose Loughborough Junction would be the best solution, unless you just missed the train there: otherwise, training it first to Penge East and the 75. The problem with rail services in the area is a combination of reliability and the demands of trying to run services to different places from the one suburban station, meaning that you often only get 2 tph on the corridor you wish to use. SouthEastern isn’t that great, plus their mainly radial suburban lines Southern does at least have a cross South London rail service that is semi orbital, London Bridge to London Victoria via New Cross Gate, Sydenham, Crystal Palace, Balham & Clapham Junction. |
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Post by route53 on May 12, 2019 22:05:42 GMT
Buses along the South Circular probably isn’t ideal, however unlike parts of North London, in which journey’a across that region can be made by tube, albeit a change at a station, South East London doesn’t have that same equivalence most of these cross region journey’s are made by buses.
I suppose that’s one of the reasons why the 122 has survived in its present form in an era when even major radial, inter-suburban, trunk routes like the 53 & 180 are facing cutbacks, because the 122 does achieve the cross SE London route corridor.
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Post by busaholic on May 12, 2019 22:14:49 GMT
Brixton to Catford isn't a journey I'd consider doing any part of by train in normal circumstances, but, if I did, I suppose Loughborough Junction would be the best solution, unless you just missed the train there: otherwise, training it first to Penge East and the 75. The problem with rail services in the area is a combination of reliability and the demands of trying to run services to different places from the one suburban station, meaning that you often only get 2 tph on the corridor you wish to use. Southern does at least have a cross South London rail service that is semi orbital, London Bridge to London Victoria via New Cross Gate, Sydenham, Crystal Palace, Balham & Clapham Junction. Only half hourly, though, so hardly turn-up-and-go, and subject in my experience to be the first to get cancelled for crewing reasons. Arguably, the more orbital South London Line was the one that used to officially have that title, same termini but via Peckham Rye and South Bermondsey, a casualty of Overground's expansion to Clapham Junction - that line was chronically unreliable in later years, with hourly gaps in service common. Shades of Goblin! |
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Post by galwhv69 on May 12, 2019 22:27:28 GMT
Southern does at least have a cross South London rail service that is semi orbital, London Bridge to London Victoria via New Cross Gate, Sydenham, Crystal Palace, Balham & Clapham Junction. Only half hourly, though, so hardly turn-up-and-go, and subject in my experience to be the first to get cancelled for crewing reasons. Arguably, the more orbital South London Line was the one that used to officially have that title, same termini but via Peckham Rye and South Bermondsey, a casualty of Overground's expansion to Clapham Junction - that line was chronically unreliable in later years, with hourly gaps in service common. Shades of Goblin! I don't use the service often (but at least 1/2 every 2 weeks) and I have never seen a train cancelled (max was a 5 minute delay!) |
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Post by busaholic on May 12, 2019 22:41:30 GMT
Only half hourly, though, so hardly turn-up-and-go, and subject in my experience to be the first to get cancelled for crewing reasons. Arguably, the more orbital South London Line was the one that used to officially have that title, same termini but via Peckham Rye and South Bermondsey, a casualty of Overground's expansion to Clapham Junction - that line was chronically unreliable in later years, with hourly gaps in service common. Shades of Goblin! I don't use the service often (but at least 1/2 every 2 weeks) and I have never seen a train cancelled (max was a 5 minute delay!) Maybe I was unlucky, as your use is far more than mine - it was during the worst of the Southern/Thameslink debacle, admittedly. Actually, I wouldn't class it as an orbital service myself, but two radial services in much the same way as the Waterloo trains on the Hounslow loop or the Thameslink Wimbledon loop, just saving terminal time and, almost by-the-by, providing a few extra journey opportunities 'on the loop'. |
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Post by sid on May 12, 2019 22:49:41 GMT
Only half hourly, though, so hardly turn-up-and-go, and subject in my experience to be the first to get cancelled for crewing reasons. Arguably, the more orbital South London Line was the one that used to officially have that title, same termini but via Peckham Rye and South Bermondsey, a casualty of Overground's expansion to Clapham Junction - that line was chronically unreliable in later years, with hourly gaps in service common. Shades of Goblin! I don't use the service often (but at least 1/2 every 2 weeks) and I have never seen a train cancelled (max was a 5 minute delay!) I've used this service many times and it's always been pretty reliable. |
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Post by rif153 on May 13, 2019 6:13:51 GMT
Southern does at least have a cross South London rail service that is semi orbital, London Bridge to London Victoria via New Cross Gate, Sydenham, Crystal Palace, Balham & Clapham Junction. Only half hourly, though, so hardly turn-up-and-go, and subject in my experience to be the first to get cancelled for crewing reasons. Arguably, the more orbital South London Line was the one that used to officially have that title, same termini but via Peckham Rye and South Bermondsey, a casualty of Overground's expansion to Clapham Junction - that line was chronically unreliable in later years, with hourly gaps in service common. Shades of Goblin! If only the Inner South London Line service were restored, it was so handy |
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Post by route53 on May 13, 2019 8:02:01 GMT
Only half hourly, though, so hardly turn-up-and-go, and subject in my experience to be the first to get cancelled for crewing reasons. Arguably, the more orbital South London Line was the one that used to officially have that title, same termini but via Peckham Rye and South Bermondsey, a casualty of Overground's expansion to Clapham Junction - that line was chronically unreliable in later years, with hourly gaps in service common. Shades of Goblin! If only the Inner South London Line service were restored, it was so handy Yes the South London line via Peckham was a handy route, however with everything that has gone on with London Bridge having its terminal platforms reduced, there may not be a way for it to return. There was a plan to replace this with a Victoria to Bellingham service but it never took off. The South London line via Sydenham however, despite it being much longer, is quite reliable and is useful for journey’s such as Sydenham to Wandsworth or Streatham to Honor Oak Park, ironically some of these journeys can actually be made by bus, Streatham to New Cross via the P13 for instances |
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Post by sid on May 13, 2019 8:27:16 GMT
If only the Inner South London Line service were restored, it was so handy Yes the South London line via Peckham was a handy route, however with everything that has gone on with London Bridge having its terminal platforms reduced, there may not be a way for it to return. There was a plan to replace this with a Victoria to Bellingham service but it never took off. The South London line via Sydenham however, despite it being much longer, is quite reliable and is useful for journey’s such as Sydenham to Wandsworth or Streatham to Honor Oak Park, ironically some of these journeys can actually be made by bus, Streatham to New Cross via the P13 for instances I can understand complaints about the loss of the London Bridge to Victoria service but the Surrey Quays to Clapham Junction service has been a great success from the outset. I'm not sure the Victoria to Bellingham service was viable and the whole Catford loop line now has 4tph Mon-Fri. I think South London has a pretty good rail network for orbital journeys, Crystal Palace to Putney in about half an hour with a change at Clapham Junction for example. |
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Post by danorak on May 13, 2019 9:52:51 GMT
I don't think it's fair to say that South London's train network is very unreliable. Really? I've rarely heard good words about SWT's predecessor, Southern or South Eastern over the years. The dreadful reliability (at least in the peaks) of Southeastern is one reason I now mostly work from home. The problem is trying to operate such an intensive service at the limits of capacity - it doesn't take much for it all to fall over. Orbital services are not great: the Dartford - Victoria line is very useful but infrequent. A total rebuild of Lewisham station approachs before all the new flats went up would have helped but its too late now. One route I used to pencil in was a combination of parts of the 75, 202, and 417 - Lewisham to Streatham via Catford and Crystal Palace. |
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