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Post by vjaska on May 13, 2019 10:23:42 GMT
Really? I've rarely heard good words about SWT's predecessor, Southern or South Eastern over the years. The dreadful reliability (at least in the peaks) of Southeastern is one reason I now mostly work from home. The problem is trying to operate such an intensive service at the limits of capacity - it doesn't take much for it all to fall over. Orbital services are not great: the Dartford - Victoria line is very useful but infrequent. A total rebuild of Lewisham station approachs before all the new flats went up would have helped but its too late now. One route I used to pencil in was a combination of parts of the 75, 202, and 417 - Lewisham to Streatham via Catford and Crystal Palace. Thanks for confirming what I heard about the train network. A Streatham to Lewisham route via Palace could be a very good link indeed - I remember someone (that was actually their username ironically lol) on here suggesting the idea a while ago as he had to make a Streatham to Lewisham journey on a regular basis. |
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Post by sid on May 13, 2019 10:47:45 GMT
Really? I've rarely heard good words about SWT's predecessor, Southern or South Eastern over the years. The dreadful reliability (at least in the peaks) of Southeastern is one reason I now mostly work from home. The problem is trying to operate such an intensive service at the limits of capacity - it doesn't take much for it all to fall over. Orbital services are not great: the Dartford - Victoria line is very useful but infrequent. A total rebuild of Lewisham station approachs before all the new flats went up would have helped but its too late now. One route I used to pencil in was a combination of parts of the 75, 202, and 417 - Lewisham to Streatham via Catford and Crystal Palace. Obviously I wouldn't disagree about Southeastern being less than perfect at peak times, although I wouldn't use the word dreadful, but that's different to making sweeping statements denigrating the whole rail network in south London. The very nature of Southeastern makes it one the most difficult networks to operate and I don't see how any other operator could do much better without reducing the number of trains being operated which wouldn't go down to well. I think something along the lines of what you suggest from Lewisham to Streatham is possible but other routes would have to be changed to prevent over bussing and obviously the journey can be done now with a change of bus at Crystal Palace, the pros might be outweighed by the cons. |
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Post by busman on May 13, 2019 11:13:35 GMT
Really? I've rarely heard good words about SWT's predecessor, Southern or South Eastern over the years. The dreadful reliability (at least in the peaks) of Southeastern is one reason I now mostly work from home. The problem is trying to operate such an intensive service at the limits of capacity - it doesn't take much for it all to fall over. Orbital services are not great: the Dartford - Victoria line is very useful but infrequent. A total rebuild of Lewisham station approachs before all the new flats went up would have helped but its too late now. One route I used to pencil in was a combination of parts of the 75, 202, and 417 - Lewisham to Streatham via Catford and Crystal Palace. Although this thread is supposed to be about buses, we are now getting to the heart of the problem - our poor orbital rail connections. If those were improved, we could get more commuters out of their cars which would reduce traffic and make orbital bus journeys more feasible. The Bakerloo extension to Lewisham would partly address this, but really needs to go further into South East London. Another future wish to have a rail connection from north of the river into Thamesmead and beyond could have potential. Curiously Greenwich council backs another DLR line over a London Overground connection and doesn’t seem bothered about taking the line south into Eltham and beyond. Seems all a little short sighted if people are serious about reducing the reliance on cars. I have the opposite experience of SouthEastern. For nearly 10 years I avoided using them because of poor reliability and constantly getting stuck outside London Bridge. My route in was a DLR then forcing my way onto the Jubilee Line at Canning Town. A very unpleasant commute when I look back on it. Since the London Bridge upgrade, the service on SouthEastern has been very reliable and punctual getting into London Bridge and Charing Cross and I now use it 3 days a week. The service is excellent now and that’s coming from someone who used to curse that line with a passion. |
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Post by sid on May 13, 2019 12:22:32 GMT
The dreadful reliability (at least in the peaks) of Southeastern is one reason I now mostly work from home. The problem is trying to operate such an intensive service at the limits of capacity - it doesn't take much for it all to fall over. Orbital services are not great: the Dartford - Victoria line is very useful but infrequent. A total rebuild of Lewisham station approachs before all the new flats went up would have helped but its too late now. One route I used to pencil in was a combination of parts of the 75, 202, and 417 - Lewisham to Streatham via Catford and Crystal Palace. Although this thread is supposed to be about buses, we are now getting to the heart of the problem - our poor orbital rail connections. If those were improved, we could get more commuters out of their cars which would reduce traffic and make orbital bus journeys more feasible. The Bakerloo extension to Lewisham would partly address this, but really needs to go further into South East London. Another future wish to have a rail connection from north of the river into Thamesmead and beyond could have potential. Curiously Greenwich council backs another DLR line over a London Overground connection and doesn’t seem bothered about taking the line south into Eltham and beyond. Seems all a little short sighted if people are serious about reducing the reliance on cars. I have the opposite experience of SouthEastern. For nearly 10 years I avoided using them because of poor reliability and constantly getting stuck outside London Bridge. My route in was a DLR then forcing my way onto the Jubilee Line at Canning Town. A very unpleasant commute when I look back on it. Since the London Bridge upgrade, the service on SouthEastern has been very reliable and punctual getting into London Bridge and Charing Cross and I now use it 3 days a week. The service is excellent now and that’s coming from someone who used to curse that line with a passion. I think the intention for the Bakerloo Line is to take over the mid Kent line to Hayes and Beckenham Junction? I think South London is quite well served with orbital rail links not least of all Tramlink and I hate to be the party pooper but I think a lot of these bus ideas are solutions looking for problems. If I wanted to get from Lewisham to Streatham asap I'd probably get a bus to NXG, LO to Crystal Palace and another train to Streatham Hill although the 122/417 would seem a reasonable bus option? |
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Post by wirewiper on May 13, 2019 13:02:58 GMT
I think the intention for the Bakerloo Line is to take over the mid Kent line to Hayes and Beckenham Junction? <snip> That old chestnut again. I don't think it is going to happen even if the Bakerloo Line ever gets to Lewisham, because of the cost of connecting it up to and converting the Hayes Line. Besides, I gather that the Hayes Line users don't want their reasonably comfortable full-size trains replaced by bouncy little Underground ones which take longer to get into Central London. |
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Post by sid on May 13, 2019 13:11:34 GMT
I think the intention for the Bakerloo Line is to take over the mid Kent line to Hayes and Beckenham Junction? <snip> That old chestnut again. I don't think it is going to happen even if the Bakerloo Line ever gets to Lewisham, because of the cost of connecting it up to and converting the Hayes Line. Besides, I gather that the Hayes Line users don't want their reasonably comfortable full-size trains replaced by bouncy little Underground ones which take longer to get into Central London. The idea has been knocking around for decades so I certainly won't hold my breath but it would also free up some paths into Charing Cross and Cannon Street for increases on other lines. |
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Post by busman on May 13, 2019 16:48:08 GMT
Although this thread is supposed to be about buses, we are now getting to the heart of the problem - our poor orbital rail connections. If those were improved, we could get more commuters out of their cars which would reduce traffic and make orbital bus journeys more feasible. The Bakerloo extension to Lewisham would partly address this, but really needs to go further into South East London. Another future wish to have a rail connection from north of the river into Thamesmead and beyond could have potential. Curiously Greenwich council backs another DLR line over a London Overground connection and doesn’t seem bothered about taking the line south into Eltham and beyond. Seems all a little short sighted if people are serious about reducing the reliance on cars. I have the opposite experience of SouthEastern. For nearly 10 years I avoided using them because of poor reliability and constantly getting stuck outside London Bridge. My route in was a DLR then forcing my way onto the Jubilee Line at Canning Town. A very unpleasant commute when I look back on it. Since the London Bridge upgrade, the service on SouthEastern has been very reliable and punctual getting into London Bridge and Charing Cross and I now use it 3 days a week. The service is excellent now and that’s coming from someone who used to curse that line with a passion. I think the intention for the Bakerloo Line is to take over the mid Kent line to Hayes and Beckenham Junction? I think South London is quite well served with orbital rail links not least of all Tramlink and I hate to be the party pooper but I think a lot of these bus ideas are solutions looking for problems. If I wanted to get from Lewisham to Streatham asap I'd probably get a bus to NXG, LO to Crystal Palace and another train to Streatham Hill although the 122/417 would seem a reasonable bus option? I think the original poster was intending this to be an ideas thread and not a feasibility exercise. If we wanted to be grounded in reality here, there is absolutely no money or political will for any reorganisation of SE London bus routes any time soon except those that reduce costs. But that would be a real conversation killer, right? The current suggestion for the Bakerloo line extension beyond Lewisham is towards Hayes/Beckenham Junction. However private developer money may yet have a say. There are some colossal developments to the north of Lewisham. Spades haven’t even hit the ground for phase 1 and the truth is it’s too early to say for sure. If I wanted to get from Lewisham to Streatham ASAP and as a bonus without the hassle of waiting around or having multiple transfers, I would drive or take an Uber 😉 |
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Post by sid on May 13, 2019 17:16:22 GMT
I think the intention for the Bakerloo Line is to take over the mid Kent line to Hayes and Beckenham Junction? I think South London is quite well served with orbital rail links not least of all Tramlink and I hate to be the party pooper but I think a lot of these bus ideas are solutions looking for problems. If I wanted to get from Lewisham to Streatham asap I'd probably get a bus to NXG, LO to Crystal Palace and another train to Streatham Hill although the 122/417 would seem a reasonable bus option? I think the original poster was intending this to be an ideas thread and not a feasibility exercise. If we wanted to be grounded in reality here, there is absolutely no money or political will for any reorganisation of SE London bus routes any time soon except those that reduce costs. But that would be a real conversation killer, right? The current suggestion for the Bakerloo line extension beyond Lewisham is towards Hayes/Beckenham Junction. However private developer money may yet have a say. There are some colossal developments to the north of Lewisham. Spades haven’t even hit the ground for phase 1 and the truth is it’s too early to say for sure. If I wanted to get from Lewisham to Streatham ASAP and as a bonus without the hassle of waiting around or having multiple transfers, I would drive or take an Uber 😉 I tend to look at it as making better use of resources, I did come up with an idea for extending the 249 or 432 to Bromley but it would involve alterations to other routes and so the pros might be outweighed by the cons. I don't disagree in principle with the suggested 227 extension to Streatham but I think it would have to replace either the 249 or 417, clearly such an extension couldn't just be superimposed on the existing network. |
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Post by busaholic on May 13, 2019 19:47:44 GMT
Really? I've rarely heard good words about SWT's predecessor, Southern or South Eastern over the years. The dreadful reliability (at least in the peaks) of Southeastern is one reason I now mostly work from home. The problem is trying to operate such an intensive service at the limits of capacity - it doesn't take much for it all to fall over. Orbital services are not great: the Dartford - Victoria line is very useful but infrequent. A total rebuild of Lewisham station approachs before all the new flats went up would have helped but its too late now. One route I used to pencil in was a combination of parts of the 75, 202, and 417 - Lewisham to Streatham via Catford and Crystal Palace. Your pencilled-in route was actually seriously considered by London Transport back at the time shortly after the GLC took over in the 1970s. In those days it would have been a combination of parts of the 108B and 137, shortly before the conversion of the former to single deck opo. I found out about it because I'd been badgering Michael Parham, who was the man responsible for planning bus services in South London, to create a 'link' between the 227 and 249 at Crystal Palace, given both had been recently converted to SMS single deck opo. He was a very 'conservative' man but did concede that a link across Crystal Palace did have some merit, from Streatham at least, and told me, a mere management trainee, what he was pondering, on the strict understanding that I didn't 'let on' to anyone. The idea got scuppered because the 137 needed the peak hour service through from the West End and Archway, which was considerable, and it was thought the mix between those Routemasters and a single deck opo route between Streatham and Crystal Palace would re-create problems of a similar nature that had occurred in Wood Green and Ealing, amongst other places. When you put in the mix the fact that Norwood couldn't operate opo buses, the need to probably extend the route to Clapham Common, etc etc, it was a no-goer. It would, by-the-by, have linked Greenwich and Blackheath, Standard and Village, to Streatham Hill in addition to Lewisham, Catford and Sydenham. although the Surrey Docks peak extension would almost certainly have been lost. It would probably have had a joint TL/NX allocation. Lewisham was unavailable as a working terminus for opo buses then. |
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Post by route53 on May 16, 2019 12:48:57 GMT
208 or 261 extended to Greenwich/North Greenwich
Withdraw 89 from Slade Green, and replace that section with a 269 extension over that section with a further extension to Erith, the N89 however will still serve this section
Make the 269 a 24 hour route at weekends, there’s plenty going on in Bexleyheath, Sidcup and Bromley to warrant this
A new bus route between Woolwich and Canary Wharf via Blackwall Tunnel, people will say there’s CrossRail or the Jubilee line but bus travel is handy and cheaper for those less well off
As the N53 looks set to return they may as well extend via its old stomping ground back in the day, to give Upper Belvedere and Bostall Heath a night service again
N177 to replace N1 east of Deptford
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Post by lonmark on May 16, 2019 12:55:25 GMT
208 or 261 extended to Greenwich/North Greenwich No way. Too much traffic and it will be packs. |
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Post by lonmark on May 16, 2019 12:55:39 GMT
208 or 261 extended to Greenwich/North Greenwich No way. Too much traffic and it will be packs. |
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Post by twobellstogo on May 16, 2019 12:59:47 GMT
Withdraw 89 from Slade Green, and replace that section with a 269 extension over that section with a further extension to Erith, the N89 however will still serve this section I don’t want two routes to Sidcup, thanks! 229 is plenty! If you have to play around with the Slade Green end of the 89, either split it in two, Lewisham-Bexleyheath and Welling-Slade Green, or enhance the B16 to embrace 89 frequencies, double deck it and extend it to Slade Green, cutting the 89 back to Bexleyheath Garage. On balance though, I’d rather like to keep my 89, thanks! |
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Post by sid on May 16, 2019 13:00:45 GMT
208 or 261 extended to Greenwich/North Greenwich Withdraw 89 from Slade Green, and replace that section with a 269 extension over that section with a further extension to Erith, the N89 however will still serve this section Make the 269 a 24 hour route at weekends, there’s plenty going on in Bexleyheath, Sidcup and Bromley to warrant this A new bus route between Woolwich and Canary Wharf via Blackwall Tunnel, people will say there’s CrossRail or the Jubilee line but bus travel is handy and cheaper for those less well off As the N53 looks set to return they may as well extend via its old stomping ground back in the day, to give Upper Belvedere and Bostall Heath a night service again N177 to replace N1 east of Deptford I would extend the 129 to Bromley replacing the Catford section of the 320 although stand space might be a problem. Extending the 269 to Slade Green would allow the 89 to be concentrated on the Lewisham end and hopefully avoid curtailments at Blackheath Village. |
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Post by vjaska on May 16, 2019 13:41:09 GMT
208 or 261 extended to Greenwich/North Greenwich Withdraw 89 from Slade Green, and replace that section with a 269 extension over that section with a further extension to Erith, the N89 however will still serve this section Make the 269 a 24 hour route at weekends, there’s plenty going on in Bexleyheath, Sidcup and Bromley to warrant this A new bus route between Woolwich and Canary Wharf via Blackwall Tunnel, people will say there’s CrossRail or the Jubilee line but bus travel is handy and cheaper for those less well off As the N53 looks set to return they may as well extend via its old stomping ground back in the day, to give Upper Belvedere and Bostall Heath a night service again N177 to replace N1 east of Deptford The 208 & 261 would be lengthy as a result and unlikely to work. Not sure I see the need to mess with the 89 or 269 either or to introduce a N177 over the N1. |
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