120 Route

[londonboy71]

Jun 23, 2019 20:34:54 GMT rif153 said:

I was in Southall today waiting for the 95. Before the 95 came, a 120 did. The route was very well used but as the bus acccelerated off it sounded rather sluggish. Is this just a one off or do many of the 120's VWHs sound like this from carrying such heavy loadings?

120 always has heavy loading as I've said before it really does need help between Southall and Hounslow. I'm surprised its not 24 hour service tbh except New Years Eve. If it's integrating with Crossrail at Southall May be it will be

[LX09FBJ]

Jun 23, 2019 20:34:54 GMT rif153 said:

I was in Southall today waiting for the 95. Before the 95 came, a 120 did. The route was very well used but as the bus acccelerated off it sounded rather sluggish. Is this just a one off or do many of the 120's VWHs sound like this from carrying such heavy loadings?

The 120s buses also operate on the N7 as PA now runs the route, which also doesn't help matters.

[rif153]

Jun 24, 2019 9:13:23 GMT londonboy71 said:

Jun 23, 2019 20:34:54 GMT rif153 said:

I was in Southall today waiting for the 95. Before the 95 came, a 120 did. The route was very well used but as the bus acccelerated off it sounded rather sluggish. Is this just a one off or do many of the 120's VWHs sound like this from carrying such heavy loadings?

120 always has heavy loading as I've said before it really does need help between Southall and Hounslow. I'm surprised its not 24 hour service tbh except New Years Eve. If it's integrating with Crossrail at Southall May be it will be

I know the 120 is very well used. I was asking whether lots of its VWHs sound sluggish or not

[Hassaan]

Jun 23, 2019 20:34:54 GMT rif153 said:

I was in Southall today waiting for the 95. Before the 95 came, a 120 did. The route was very well used but as the bus acccelerated off it sounded rather sluggish. Is this just a one off or do many of the 120's VWHs sound like this from carrying such heavy loadings?

Sounds like it was in the short 20mph bit of Lady Margaret Road? The VWHs have been fitted with Intelligent Speed Assist, which on detecting a 20mph zone (via GPS and database) works by reducing acceleration and limiting the speed to 20. It also works while on diversion, so if your bus gets diverted via The Broadway in Southall (as mine did about a month ago) the system will come into play there.

The zones on the route are below:
Lady Margaret Road (between Shackleton Road and The Broadway)
Norwood Road (between King Street and Merrick road)
Heston Road (between Ferraro Close and Alderney Avenue)
Lampton Road / Bath Road (between Concorde Close and Steve Biko Way)

Outside those areas, the buses are usually fine. Occasionally they enter a fault mode where the hybrid system gets disabled and the diesel engine has to do everything, but the obvious sign of that only exists on pulling away as it is slower and less smooth.

[rif153]

Jun 24, 2019 17:04:06 GMT Hassaan said:

Jun 23, 2019 20:34:54 GMT rif153 said:

I was in Southall today waiting for the 95. Before the 95 came, a 120 did. The route was very well used but as the bus acccelerated off it sounded rather sluggish. Is this just a one off or do many of the 120's VWHs sound like this from carrying such heavy loadings?

Sounds like it was in the short 20mph bit of Lady Margaret Road? The VWHs have been fitted with Intelligent Speed Assist, which on detecting a 20mph zone (via GPS and database) works by reducing acceleration and limiting the speed to 20. It also works while on diversion, so if your bus gets diverted via The Broadway in Southall (as mine did about a month ago) the system will come into play there.

The zones on the route are below:
Lady Margaret Road (between Shackleton Road and The Broadway)
Norwood Road (between King Street and Merrick road)
Heston Road (between Ferraro Close and Alderney Avenue)
Lampton Road / Bath Road (between Concorde Close and Steve Biko Way)

Outside those areas, the buses are usually fine. Occasionally they enter a fault mode where the hybrid system gets disabled and the diesel engine has to do everything, but the obvious sign of that only exists on pulling away as it is slower and less smooth.

This was actually at the top of South Road just before the Broadway

[Hassaan]

Jun 24, 2019 18:05:32 GMT rif153 said:

Jun 24, 2019 17:04:06 GMT Hassaan said:

Sounds like it was in the short 20mph bit of Lady Margaret Road? The VWHs have been fitted with Intelligent Speed Assist, which on detecting a 20mph zone (via GPS and database) works by reducing acceleration and limiting the speed to 20. It also works while on diversion, so if your bus gets diverted via The Broadway in Southall (as mine did about a month ago) the system will come into play there.

The zones on the route are below:
Lady Margaret Road (between Shackleton Road and The Broadway)
Norwood Road (between King Street and Merrick road)
Heston Road (between Ferraro Close and Alderney Avenue)
Lampton Road / Bath Road (between Concorde Close and Steve Biko Way)

Outside those areas, the buses are usually fine. Occasionally they enter a fault mode where the hybrid system gets disabled and the diesel engine has to do everything, but the obvious sign of that only exists on pulling away as it is slower and less smooth.

This was actually at the top of South Road just before the Broadway

In that case it may be that the driver was crawling along in traffic in a way that confused the gearbox and made it decide to use a lower gear than normal. B5LHs appear to need a lot of practice to drive smoothly. Many drivers have become excellent with them but there are still way too many who can't or won't get the hang of them. Getting one of those drivers makes it very difficult for standing passengers on the bus to keep their balance. In comparison, it's competitor the E400H just cannot be beaten when it comes to smoothness, and it is a huge shame that Metroline are not in favour of these .

Coincidentally, today is 2 years since the contract started. In an alternate universe we could have ended up with Abellio with E400H-MMCs, and I think they did initially win it but couldn't take it up due to a lack of garage space. Shame their Bridge Road site wasn't ready then

[rif153]

Jun 24, 2019 18:32:17 GMT Hassaan said:

Jun 24, 2019 18:05:32 GMT rif153 said:

This was actually at the top of South Road just before the Broadway

In that case it may be that the driver was crawling along in traffic in a way that confused the gearbox and made it decide to use a lower gear than normal. B5LHs appear to need a lot of practice to drive smoothly. Many drivers have become excellent with them but there are still way too many who can't or won't get the hang of them. Getting one of those drivers makes it very difficult for standing passengers on the bus to keep their balance. In comparison, it's competitor the E400H just cannot be beaten when it comes to smoothness, and it is a huge shame that Metroline are not in favour of these .

Coincidentally, today is 2 years since the contract started. In an alternate universe we could have ended up with Abellio with E400H-MMCs, and I think they did initially win it but couldn't take it up due to a lack of garage space. Shame their Bridge Road site wasn't ready then

I just read the tender result. Its so frustrating that Abellio couldn't take up the 120, it would have been fantastic to have Abellio running the route as you said and it would have given Abellio a presence in new areas - Abellio have only recently gotten a presence in Northolt. I hope they win the 282 to partially make up for it so we get E400H MMCs running along part of the 120

[ak121]

Jun 24, 2019 18:38:13 GMT rif153 said:

Jun 24, 2019 18:32:17 GMT Hassaan said:

In that case it may be that the driver was crawling along in traffic in a way that confused the gearbox and made it decide to use a lower gear than normal. B5LHs appear to need a lot of practice to drive smoothly. Many drivers have become excellent with them but there are still way too many who can't or won't get the hang of them. Getting one of those drivers makes it very difficult for standing passengers on the bus to keep their balance. In comparison, it's competitor the E400H just cannot be beaten when it comes to smoothness, and it is a huge shame that Metroline are not in favour of these .

Coincidentally, today is 2 years since the contract started. In an alternate universe we could have ended up with Abellio with E400H-MMCs, and I think they did initially win it but couldn't take it up due to a lack of garage space. Shame their Bridge Road site wasn't ready then

I just read the tender result. Its so frustrating that Abellio couldn't take up the 120, it would have been fantastic to have Abellio running the route as you said and it would have given Abellio a presence in new areas - Abellio have only recently gotten a presence in Northolt. I hope they win the 282 to partially make up for it so we get E400H MMCs running along part of the 120

Metroline do have a large chance of retaining the 282 and even the 482 with existing B5LHs from across the fleet.

[londonboy71]

Jun 25, 2019 18:15:40 GMT ak121 said:

Jun 24, 2019 18:38:13 GMT rif153 said:

I just read the tender result. Its so frustrating that Abellio couldn't take up the 120, it would have been fantastic to have Abellio running the route as you said and it would have given Abellio a presence in new areas - Abellio have only recently gotten a presence in Northolt. I hope they win the 282 to partially make up for it so we get E400H MMCs running along part of the 120

Metroline do have a large chance of retaining the 282 and even the 482 with existing B5LHs from across the fleet.

Sorry to be so ignorant but what differ3nce does type of bus make?

[vjaska]

Jun 25, 2019 18:53:14 GMT londonboy71 said:

Jun 25, 2019 18:15:40 GMT ak121 said:

Metroline do have a large chance of retaining the 282 and even the 482 with existing B5LHs from across the fleet.

Sorry to be so ignorant but what differ3nce does type of bus make?

If the type of bus is compliant for another contract contrary to TfL’s regulations, then it gives the incumbent an advantage when submitting bids for that route.

[ak121]

Jun 25, 2019 18:53:14 GMT londonboy71 said:

Jun 25, 2019 18:15:40 GMT ak121 said:

Metroline do have a large chance of retaining the 282 and even the 482 with existing B5LHs from across the fleet.

Sorry to be so ignorant but what differ3nce does type of bus make?

I wasn't really focusing on the type of bus, but due to the buses already existing in Metroline's fleet as soon to be spares, they may have a higher chance of retaining the routes compared to other companies, who's bids will be higher if they need to procure new buses.

[londonboy71]

I am on a 120 from Greenford High School to Hounslow time is 1 pm and bus is absolutely full and standing. And we've not even reached Soultall yet!! This route needs serious help

[rif153]

Jun 28, 2019 12:02:33 GMT londonboy71 said:

I am on a 120 from Greenford High School to Hounslow time is 1 pm and bus is absolutely full and standing. And we've not even reached Soultall yet!! This route needs serious help

If only TfL had decided to go through with that frequency increase

[Hassaan]

Jun 28, 2019 12:02:33 GMT londonboy71 said:

I am on a 120 from Greenford High School to Hounslow time is 1 pm and bus is absolutely full and standing. And we've not even reached Soultall yet!! This route needs serious help

I've been keeping a closer eye on loadings at my end of the route (Norwood Green) during various times of the day. The time you boarded is hell even at my end, specifically Midday to 1400. This is due to passengers going to Southall and there is a risk of being left behind. Buses often lose time on leaving Hounslow town centre and through Heston, the gap in front often going to 15+ minutes. A lot of the time the bus behind then gets less passengers and gains time, which may or may not be corrected by controllers (or driver actually following headway display). And then you get passengers not going upstairs for whatever reason, which is also annoying and unsurprisingly is especially bad the closer you are to Southall town centre. Northolt direction buses start to empty out once reaching near King Street, but then can fill up a lot again if there has been no 105/195/482/H32 for over 5 minutes.

After that it is 1500-1800 (school times and early evening peak) which is especially busy, and I've been left behind more at those times compared to the above. Around that time there is a high number of passengers not going upstairs, especially on the approach to my stop, although loads get off due to primary schools nearby. The later part of the evening peak plus later on into the evening is very variable for passenger numbers.

Weekends (and school holidays) are a different matter. Passenger demand remains high pretty much throughout the day, and especially on Sunday service days when the frequency is a poor "every 13 minutes" at best. On said days I've even had to stand all the way from Norwood Green to Hounslow, which doesn't happen on other days. On days with amazing weather the crush continues into the evening, especially as the 120 is one of the first in Southall to have the frequency start to decrease.

The last frequency increase was in September 2010, which saw peaks become every 9 minutes (previously 10), Sundays become every 12 minutes (previously 15), and most importantly, evenings become a solid every 15 minutes (previously 20-30). Now Metroline have brought in a frequency reduction of 1 minute in order to give more time with the same number of buses. To be fair the base post-2010 timetable was just about ok during the day but extremely tight at night, which Metroline decided to tighten further during the day. That had predictable results, so now they've gone the other way with their emergency schedule and there is often too much time   .

The random reliability is nothing new though. The Ealing Passenger Transport Users Group (EPTUG, now disbanded I think) always complained about the reliability during the 2000s, and it also got a special mention in Ealing's Borough Bus Review in 2011. Having said that, from my perception it did seem to improve after iBus and especially after SP and then ADE introduction, both of which were excellently laid out inside compared to the VAs and VPs (especially the annoying almost-rear staircase that those had).  The VWHs may be about as long on the outside but inside usable space is much less due to the enormous engine, maybe even less than the old short ALX400s and Presidents.

Despite all that I do my best to stay positive, and generally the route is ok enough for me, even though my general patience for public transport delays has decreased over the last 2 years, no doubt due to me getting older  . However, I do feel that a complaint is coming soon because I'm fed up of the evening early departures and a particular slow driver who also has a habit of creating arguments   . And I do wonder how my aspiration to get a car in the future will affect my usage of buses in general.

[ServerKing]

Jun 29, 2019 23:49:49 GMT Hassaan said:

Jun 28, 2019 12:02:33 GMT londonboy71 said:

I am on a 120 from Greenford High School to Hounslow time is 1 pm and bus is absolutely full and standing. And we've not even reached Soultall yet!! This route needs serious help

I've been keeping a closer eye on loadings at my end of the route (Norwood Green) during various times of the day. The time you boarded is hell even at my end, specifically Midday to 1400. This is due to passengers going to Southall and there is a risk of being left behind. Buses often lose time on leaving Hounslow town centre and through Heston, the gap in front often going to 15+ minutes. A lot of the time the bus behind then gets less passengers and gains time, which may or may not be corrected by controllers (or driver actually following headway display). And then you get passengers not going upstairs for whatever reason, which is also annoying and unsurprisingly is especially bad the closer you are to Southall town centre. Northolt direction buses start to empty out once reaching near King Street, but then can fill up a lot again if there has been no 105/195/482/H32 for over 5 minutes.

After that it is 1500-1800 (school times and early evening peak) which is especially busy, and I've been left behind more at those times compared to the above. Around that time there is a high number of passengers not going upstairs, especially on the approach to my stop, although loads get off due to primary schools nearby. The later part of the evening peak plus later on into the evening is very variable for passenger numbers.

Weekends (and school holidays) are a different matter. Passenger demand remains high pretty much throughout the day, and especially on Sunday service days when the frequency is a poor "every 13 minutes" at best. On said days I've even had to stand all the way from Norwood Green to Hounslow, which doesn't happen on other days. On days with amazing weather the crush continues into the evening, especially as the 120 is one of the first in Southall to have the frequency start to decrease.

The last frequency increase was in September 2010, which saw peaks become every 9 minutes (previously 10), Sundays become every 12 minutes (previously 15), and most importantly, evenings become a solid every 15 minutes (previously 20-30). Now Metroline have brought in a frequency reduction of 1 minute in order to give more time with the same number of buses. To be fair the base post-2010 timetable was just about ok during the day but extremely tight at night, which Metroline decided to tighten further during the day. That had predictable results, so now they've gone the other way with their emergency schedule and there is often too much time   .

The random reliability is nothing new though. The Ealing Passenger Transport Users Group (EPTUG, now disbanded I think) always complained about the reliability during the 2000s, and it also got a special mention in Ealing's Borough Bus Review in 2011. Having said that, from my perception it did seem to improve after iBus and especially after SP and then ADE introduction, both of which were excellently laid out inside compared to the VAs and VPs (especially the annoying almost-rear staircase that those had).  The VWHs may be about as long on the outside but inside usable space is much less due to the enormous engine, maybe even less than the old short ALX400s and Presidents.

Despite all that I do my best to stay positive, and generally the route is ok enough for me, even though my general patience for public transport delays has decreased over the last 2 years, no doubt due to me getting older  . However, I do feel that a complaint is coming soon because I'm fed up of the evening early departures and a particular slow driver who also has a habit of creating arguments   . And I do wonder how my aspiration to get a car in the future will affect my usage of buses in general.

I learnt to drive around Heston and Norwood Green back in the day, lol... traffic has always been bad in that part of town. That whole section around Southall is bad, if the A312 or 315 has any issues, it's like the whole area grinds to a halt... I don't miss that part of London at all, having served my time in Brentford. I found bus travel got dull after the Voith TPs left the E8, but driving for work in general has seen my bus use decrease. The days of jaunts by bus for fun are long over as everything is so samey samey... plus the 20 zones dont help. The MANs on the E8 was a brief interesting interlude before more B9TLs with their lazy shifting box.

West London traffic was too much for me, even a brief trip to Hounslow could be a mission if the roads were bad.

It seems in general TfL aren't really encouraging people onto buses, but I have been saying this for years. I liked the madness of Arriva having the E10 in the heart of Metroline territory, for the brief time I was in the area. But at the time, visiting family back in North London was always going to involve a car. The E8, 112 and 232 were never going to figure due to traffic.

If road conditions improved it would help. But with at least 1000 leaving London daily, perhaps we wont get so overwhelmed with traffic as before.

Many routes have been ruined by drastic cuts. The 4, for instance now drops you in Blackfriars and there's no link to Waterloo, and the 341 now goes through an increasingly congested Farringdon. I don't know what they are smoking when they draw up such plans, but it won't encourage Joe Public back onto buses... I can't see TfL improving the 120 or any other route as the cupboard is bare...