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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2019 9:48:47 GMT
Sorry all I made a mistake quoting the 8 15 and 101 starting in 1934. Was a mistake on my part.
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Post by Paul on Jul 22, 2019 10:16:37 GMT
Seeing as how the 162 got a mention, and as Rectory Road, Beckenham which fronts the Beckenham Junction terminus was my first married home, I thought of the routes that have terminated there over the years and they all end in even numbers - 126, 162, 194A, 166, even the scheduled peak journeys from Croydon on the 54. For the uninitiated, the Junction has never been a terminus or even a turn on the 227. The 354 is theoretically allowed to turn there, I believe, but War Memorial is much more likely. Maybe I'm forgetting a route somewhere - anyone like to prick my balloon? Back in the early 90s I remember being on 227s driven by my dad being curtailed at Beckenham Junction. Obviously it’s a little off line of route but back then it was preferable to give a turn where it was possible to stand rather than a true turning point - as the War Memorial would be And for completeness I’ve driven a 354 curtailed to Beckenham Junction and one curtailed to the War Memorial. My theory was a Beckenham turn depends on the direction you are coming from ie from Penge it would be the Junction and from Bromley the War Memorial |
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Post by busaholic on Jul 22, 2019 12:00:36 GMT
Seeing as how the 162 got a mention, and as Rectory Road, Beckenham which fronts the Beckenham Junction terminus was my first married home, I thought of the routes that have terminated there over the years and they all end in even numbers - 126, 162, 194A, 166, even the scheduled peak journeys from Croydon on the 54. For the uninitiated, the Junction has never been a terminus or even a turn on the 227. The 354 is theoretically allowed to turn there, I believe, but War Memorial is much more likely. Maybe I'm forgetting a route somewhere - anyone like to prick my balloon? was extended to Beckenham Junction from 28/10/78 until 27/04/85 The 367 6/01/90-11/03/94 Plus the N3 used to terminate there between 27/10/89 and 5/02/00 (except on Fri/Sat nights when it ran to Chislehurst) A genuine thank you for that: I even knew about the 289 but (in)conveniently forgot it! The 367 was during a period when I was establishing a new life well away from London and even allowed my LOTS sub to lapse, so I'm always catching up on that period, which you can never QUITE manage.  Don't know how the N3 escaped me, particularly as all my London trips at the time were based on Croxted Road, so I'll put that down to the joys of ageing! |
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Post by busaholic on Jul 22, 2019 12:07:38 GMT
Seeing as how the 162 got a mention, and as Rectory Road, Beckenham which fronts the Beckenham Junction terminus was my first married home, I thought of the routes that have terminated there over the years and they all end in even numbers - 126, 162, 194A, 166, even the scheduled peak journeys from Croydon on the 54. For the uninitiated, the Junction has never been a terminus or even a turn on the 227. The 354 is theoretically allowed to turn there, I believe, but War Memorial is much more likely. Maybe I'm forgetting a route somewhere - anyone like to prick my balloon? Back in the early 90s I remember being on 227s driven by my dad being curtailed at Beckenham Junction. Obviously it’s a little off line of route but back then it was preferable to give a turn where it was possible to stand rather than a true turning point - as the War Memorial would be And for completeness I’ve driven a 354 curtailed to Beckenham Junction and one curtailed to the War Memorial. My theory was a Beckenham turn depends on the direction you are coming from ie from Penge it would be the Junction and from Bromley the War Memorial I assumed that BJ on the 354 would be from the Penge end: I just didn't realise there'd be any such journeys! 227 (and I'm guessing here) probably displayed Beckenham Church before proceeding oos to BJ, cos I can't see what that turn would be otherwise. I'd LOVE to find a photo of a 227 standing, blinded, at BJ. |
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Post by Paul on Jul 22, 2019 12:14:20 GMT
Back in the early 90s I remember being on 227s driven by my dad being curtailed at Beckenham Junction. Obviously it’s a little off line of route but back then it was preferable to give a turn where it was possible to stand rather than a true turning point - as the War Memorial would be And for completeness I’ve driven a 354 curtailed to Beckenham Junction and one curtailed to the War Memorial. My theory was a Beckenham turn depends on the direction you are coming from ie from Penge it would be the Junction and from Bromley the War Memorial I assumed that BJ on the 354 would be from the Penge end: I just didn't realise there'd be any such journeys! 227 (and I'm guessing here) probably displayed Beckenham Church before proceeding oos to BJ, cos I can't see what that turn would be otherwise. I'd LOVE to find a photo of a 227 standing, blinded, at BJ. As I recall the Junction turn on the 354 was as a result of problems in Bromley - certainly turns on the 354 are quite rare I’m pretty sure it was Beckenham Church that was supposed to be shown but in practice Beckenham Junction was usually shown! |
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Post by Paul on Jul 22, 2019 12:21:14 GMT
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Post by wirewiper on Jul 22, 2019 13:19:53 GMT
A lot of routes we now take for granted started out as Tram Routes with similar numbers then became Trolleybus Routes before being converted to buses e.g. 149 243 123 266 =649 543/643 623 etc. 607 stil runs same route now The trolleybus network was derived from the tram network during the 1930s, and remained remarkably unchanged until the trolleybus conversion programme of 1959-1962. By contrast many of the bus routes that replaced them have either completely disappeared (e.g. 104 Barnet-Moorgate, which replaced the 609 trolleybus) or altered beyond all recognition (e.g. 193, which in 1959 replaced the 693 trolleybus and ran from Barking to Chadwell Heath). Some routes though are still recognisably the descendants of the trolleybus routes they replaced. Bus 58 replaced trolleybus 685 (North Woolwich-Crooked Billet) Bus 67 replaced trolleybus 647 (London Docks-Stamford Hill) Bus 69 replaced trolleybus 669 (North Woolwich-Stratford Broadway) Bus 123 replaced trolleybus 623 (Manor House-Woodford) Bus 131 replaced trolleybus 604 (Wimbledon-Kingston) Bus 141 replaced trolleybus 641 (Moorgate-Winchmore Hill) Bus 149 replaced trolleybus 649 (Liverpool Street-Waltham Cross) Bus 154 replaced trolleybus 654 (Sutton-Crystal Palace) Bus 207 replaced trolleybus 607 (Shepherd's Bush-Uxbridge) Bus 214 replaced trolleybus 615 (Moorgate-Parliament Hill Fields) Bus 220 replaced trolleybus 630 (Harlesden, College Park-West Croydon) Bus 221 replaced trolleybuses 521/621 (Holborn Circus-North Finchley) Bus 243 replaced trolleybuses 543/643 (Wood Green-Holborn Circus) Bus 253 replaced trolleybus 653 (Warren Street-Aldgate) Bus 259 replaced trolleybus 659 (Holborn-Waltham Cross) Bus 260 replaced trolleybus 660 (Hammersmith-North Finchley) Bus 266 replaced trolleybus 666 (Hammersmith-Edgware) Bus 267 replaced trolleybus 667 (Hammersmith-Hampton Court) Bus 271 replaced trolleybus 611 (Moorgate-Highgate Village) Bus 277 replaced trolleybus 677 (Smithfield-West India Docks) Bus 279 replaced trolleybus 679 (Smithfield-Waltham Cross) Bus 281 replaced trolleybus 601 (Twickenham-Tolworth) |
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Post by busaholic on Jul 22, 2019 13:32:30 GMT
What a great forum this is (usually ). Thank you so much. Def BJ pre-Tramlink, the old CP via Birkbeck rail line and platform in the background. Beckenham Church on the blind, though! |
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Post by busaholic on Jul 22, 2019 13:38:56 GMT
A lot of routes we now take for granted started out as Tram Routes with similar numbers then became Trolleybus Routes before being converted to buses e.g. 149 243 123 266 =649 543/643 623 etc. 607 stil runs same route now The trolleybus network was derived from the tram network during the 1930s, and remained remarkably unchanged until the trolleybus conversion programme of 1959-1962. By contrast many of the bus routes that replaced them have either completely disappeared (e.g. 104 Barnet-Moorgate, which replaced the 609 trolleybus) or altered beyond all recognition (e.g. 193, which in 1959 replaced the 693 trolleybus and ran from Barking to Chadwell Heath). Some routes though are still recognisably the descendants of the trolleybus routes they replaced. Bus 58 replaced trolleybus 685 (North Woolwich-Crooked Billet) Bus 67 replaced trolleybus 647 (London Docks-Stamford Hill) Bus 69 replaced trolleybus 669 (North Woolwich-Stratford Broadway) Bus 123 replaced trolleybus 623 (Manor House-Woodford) Bus 131 replaced trolleybus 604 (Wimbledon-Kingston) Bus 141 replaced trolleybus 641 (Moorgate-Winchmore Hill) Bus 149 replaced trolleybus 649 (Liverpool Street-Waltham Cross) Bus 154 replaced trolleybus 654 (Sutton-Crystal Palace) Bus 207 replaced trolleybus 607 (Shepherd's Bush-Uxbridge) Bus 214 replaced trolleybus 615 (Moorgate-Parliament Hill Fields) Bus 220 replaced trolleybus 630 (Harlesden, College Park-West Croydon) Bus 221 replaced trolleybuses 521/621 (Holborn Circus-North Finchley) Bus 243 replaced trolleybuses 543/643 (Wood Green-Holborn Circus) Bus 253 replaced trolleybus 653 (Warren Street-Aldgate) Bus 259 replaced trolleybus 659 (Holborn-Waltham Cross) Bus 260 replaced trolleybus 660 (Hammersmith-North Finchley) Bus 266 replaced trolleybus 666 (Hammersmith-Edgware) Bus 267 replaced trolleybus 667 (Hammersmith-Hampton Court) Bus 271 replaced trolleybus 611 (Moorgate-Highgate Village) Bus 277 replaced trolleybus 677 (Smithfield-West India Docks) Bus 279 replaced trolleybus 679 (Smithfield-Waltham Cross) Bus 281 replaced trolleybus 601 (Twickenham-Tolworth) The 685 couldn't become the more obvious 285 because, at the time, that was a Night Route number. By the time a couple of years later when the 605 trolley was converted that became the 285 instead! Those who said the Sunday only route 205 should lose its number to the rather more important SW London route were ignored! |
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Post by wirewiper on Jul 22, 2019 14:08:50 GMT
The trolleybus network was derived from the tram network during the 1930s, and remained remarkably unchanged until the trolleybus conversion programme of 1959-1962. By contrast many of the bus routes that replaced them have either completely disappeared (e.g. 104 Barnet-Moorgate, which replaced the 609 trolleybus) or altered beyond all recognition (e.g. 193, which in 1959 replaced the 693 trolleybus and ran from Barking to Chadwell Heath). Some routes though are still recognisably the descendants of the trolleybus routes they replaced. Bus 58 replaced trolleybus 685 (North Woolwich-Crooked Billet) Bus 67 replaced trolleybus 647 (London Docks-Stamford Hill) Bus 69 replaced trolleybus 669 (North Woolwich-Stratford Broadway) Bus 123 replaced trolleybus 623 (Manor House-Woodford) Bus 131 replaced trolleybus 604 (Wimbledon-Kingston) Bus 141 replaced trolleybus 641 (Moorgate-Winchmore Hill) Bus 149 replaced trolleybus 649 (Liverpool Street-Waltham Cross) Bus 154 replaced trolleybus 654 (Sutton-Crystal Palace) Bus 207 replaced trolleybus 607 (Shepherd's Bush-Uxbridge) Bus 214 replaced trolleybus 615 (Moorgate-Parliament Hill Fields) Bus 220 replaced trolleybus 630 (Harlesden, College Park-West Croydon) Bus 221 replaced trolleybuses 521/621 (Holborn Circus-North Finchley) Bus 243 replaced trolleybuses 543/643 (Wood Green-Holborn Circus) Bus 253 replaced trolleybus 653 (Warren Street-Aldgate) Bus 259 replaced trolleybus 659 (Holborn-Waltham Cross) Bus 260 replaced trolleybus 660 (Hammersmith-North Finchley) Bus 266 replaced trolleybus 666 (Hammersmith-Edgware) Bus 267 replaced trolleybus 667 (Hammersmith-Hampton Court) Bus 271 replaced trolleybus 611 (Moorgate-Highgate Village) Bus 277 replaced trolleybus 677 (Smithfield-West India Docks) Bus 279 replaced trolleybus 679 (Smithfield-Waltham Cross) Bus 281 replaced trolleybus 601 (Twickenham-Tolworth) The 685 couldn't become the more obvious 285 because, at the time, that was a Night Route number. By the time a couple of years later when the 605 trolley was converted that became the 285 instead! Those who said the Sunday only route 205 should lose its number to the rather more important SW London route were ignored! Thank you - I hadn't thought about the 685 not becoming the 285 for that reason! As well as the 281 1nd 285, Kingston also had the 282/283 which replaced the 602/603 Richmond Park circulars - given these routes were rarely busy and were covered by other bus routes almost in their entirety, it is surprising that they lasted as long as they did (the 282 was withdrawn in 1966 and the 283 in 1970). There was no route 284 as the 604 was replaced by the extension of an existing bus route, the 131 which at the time ran from Walton-on-Thames to Kingston. A similar thing happened to the 657, which was replaced by extending bus 117 (at the time Egham Station - Hounslow Garage) to Shepherd's Bush. This was in turn replaced by the dramatic upscaling of route 237 in January 1978 - up until then a midibus route operating between Chertsey and Hounslow - to a high-frequency crew-operated route reaching well into inner London. This enabled the 117 to be cut back to Hounslow again, converted to driver-only operation and reducing the subsidy required from Surrey County Council. The Chertsey-Sunbury Village section of the 237 was covered by a London Country route. |
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Post by Paul on Jul 22, 2019 14:23:20 GMT
What a great forum this is (usually ). Thank you so much. Def BJ pre-Tramlink, the old CP via Birkbeck rail line and platform in the background. Beckenham Church on the blind, though! Fairly certain that site also shows the 227 at the old Chislehurst terminus pre-Belmont Parade; pictures I was looking for a long while ago since I wasn’t previously aware of a different terminal arrangement at the Gordon Arms And you’re right; it’s amazing what this forum can throw up sometimes! |
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Post by snowman on Jul 24, 2019 6:20:06 GMT
The 65 can be traced back to the Kew Road Horse tram (need to look up opening date, but about 1880s). This ran from South side of Kew Bridge (the old bridge, not current one) to near Richmond Station
Once the new Kew Bridge opened, this isolated section was never connected to tracks other end of Kew Bridge as Richmond Borough hated trams and didn’t allow any expansion, it survived as unelectrified single line with passing loops until 1912 when it was replaced by a LGOC bus service
However 65 bus doesn’t date back to 1912, as horse tram was taken over by LGOC route 27 which went via Turnham Green, not towards South Ealing (Brentford-South Ealing was undeveloped rural area in 1906)
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Post by ian on Jul 24, 2019 7:55:03 GMT
I am surprised no one has mentioned the 113 which has run more or less unchanged between Edgware and Oxford Circus (with odd tiny adjustments) since 1939.
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Post by busaholic on Jul 24, 2019 11:24:03 GMT
I am surprised no one has mentioned the 113 which has run more or less unchanged between Edgware and Oxford Circus (with odd tiny adjustments) since 1939. Almost a miraculous survivor, given that through journeys were confined to evenings and weekends after 1969, then to evenings and Sundays, and, at different times, withdrawn Swiss Cottage to Oxford Circus on Sundays and from Mill Hill to Edgware M-F between peaks. I'd suggest that if the M1 hadn't opened when it did, the 113 as known now would be a distant memory. The other thing that saved it imo in the age of route shortening and opoisation (i.e. the late 1960s through to the late 1980s) was the closure of Hendon Garage. The problems of having an operating garage just far enough away from line of route to be a pain to both operators and passengers can be seen on an everyday basis in the area on the 13, by all accounts. W and X are not suitable, as was seen when W worked the 2, leading to the creation of the 26, which begat the 82, which metamorphosised into the 13, and the problem occurs again! By the way, before someone looks it up and tells me that W had a small allocation on the 26 initially, I'm aware of it and all I can say as someone who was working for the Bus Dept at Grosvenor Place when it started, I don't remember ever seeing a W 26 amongst the Finchley buses, though I'm sure there must have been occasions when they weren't all 'staff cuts'. |
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Post by route53 on Jul 25, 2019 11:43:18 GMT
The 53 via Blackheath has been running since 1952, however until that point it was the 53A, the main 53 was the precursor to the 177 in a way as it ran via New Charlton, East Greenwich and Greenwich rather than Charlton Village and Blackheath, this first 53 started service in 1937.
The 89 is quite an old route as well, when my family lived in Shooters Hill we had a neighbour who had lived this his whole life, he remembers getting on the 89 down to Westerham via Lewisham and Bromley in the late 1920s/early 1930s and in WW2 his best friends brother was killed when a rocket struck the 89 bus on near Woolwich Common
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Don't know how the N3 escaped me, particularly as all my London trips at the time were based on Croxted Road, so I'll put that down to the joys of ageing!
