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Post by CircleLineofLife on Sept 21, 2023 20:46:43 GMT
What if someone works in Penge but lives in Twickenham? The fact is that both Golders Green and Willesden are already well served by night buses individually; there's no particular need to link them. Better to concentrate on the many night bus deserts. Your example isn't great I'm afraid. Both towns are far from London. The commute in the day would be bad enough. Even so Penge to Twickenham via the 176 and N22 doesn't sound too unfeasible, it's a far contrast from Willesden or Cricklewood to Golders Green where as others have said you'd need to get a bus to Marble Arch then change to the 13 which takes ages for such a small displacement Trust me. Especially when during the day there are 3 buses from Willesden to Golders Green and 4 from Cricklewood to Golders Green, showing this link is well used. Out of all those buses why dont one of these create this night link. If not an extension of the N102 down to Willesden, if creating the N260 is too costly. We should not have to go Marble Arch and back for a round the corner day time link. This person who used the Penge Twickenham example, this is a bad faith example as one is in SW London whereas the other is in SE London. Willesden and Golders Green are both in NW London and are 5-10 mins away from each other, driving while the walk is indirect and long at 40 minutes. |
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Sept 21, 2023 21:10:59 GMT
Your example isn't great I'm afraid. Both towns are far from London. The commute in the day would be bad enough. Even so Penge to Twickenham via the 176 and N22 doesn't sound too unfeasible, it's a far contrast from Willesden or Cricklewood to Golders Green where as others have said you'd need to get a bus to Marble Arch then change to the 13 which takes ages for such a small displacement Trust me. Especially when during the day there are 3 buses from Willesden to Golders Green and 4 from Cricklewood to Golders Green, showing this link is well used. Out of all those buses why dont one of these create this night link. If not an extension of the N102 down to Willesden, if creating the N260 is too costly. We should not have to go Marble Arch and back for a round the corner day time link. This person who used the Penge Twickenham example, this is a bad faith example as one is in SW London whereas the other is in SE London. Willesden and Golders Green are both in NW London and are 5-10 mins away from each other, driving while the walk is indirect and long at 40 minutes. I think the reason boils down to travel patterns, how many people are actually making the link from Cricklewood to Golders Green at that hour? The night network predominantly aims to get people back from Central London during night hours with the expectation that people are also prepared to walk much greater distances as well. If you start linking random towns then before you know it every single route will have a justification for a night service. London is not a 24 hour city, even if some people think otherwise, it's not anything like New York is at night. This city sleeps and the demand on the transport will reflect this. The towns and neighbourhoods have the links that they need in most cases and the priority is getting people home from Central London and the few towns outside like Romford which have their own night life. In an ideal world every full time route would run at night, but we're reaching cases where even day routes don't have driver roles being filled and TfL are cash strapped to commit to providing many more night services. |
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Post by LondonNorthern on Sept 21, 2023 21:32:57 GMT
Trust me. Especially when during the day there are 3 buses from Willesden to Golders Green and 4 from Cricklewood to Golders Green, showing this link is well used. Out of all those buses why dont one of these create this night link. If not an extension of the N102 down to Willesden, if creating the N260 is too costly. We should not have to go Marble Arch and back for a round the corner day time link. This person who used the Penge Twickenham example, this is a bad faith example as one is in SW London whereas the other is in SE London. Willesden and Golders Green are both in NW London and are 5-10 mins away from each other, driving while the walk is indirect and long at 40 minutes. I think the reason boils down to travel patterns, how many people are actually making the link from Cricklewood to Golders Green at that hour? The night network predominantly aims to get people back from Central London during night hours with the expectation that people are also prepared to walk much greater distances as well. If you start linking random towns then before you know it every single route will have a justification for a night service. London is not a 24 hour city, even if some people think otherwise, it's not anything like New York is at night. This city sleeps and the demand on the transport will reflect this. The towns and neighbourhoods have the links that they need in most cases and the priority is getting people home from Central London and the few towns outside like Romford which have their own night life. In an ideal world every full time route would run at night, but we're reaching cases where even day routes don't have driver roles being filled and TfL are cash strapped to commit to providing many more night services. The other problem is that nowadays people are more inclined to use rail or an UBER depending on how far from Central London they live. The walk from Child's Hill to Cricklewood isn't exactly a walk I would particularly like to do at night especially under Cricklewood Station but given demand is low I think that'll have to suffice.
Thameslink run a 24 hour service throughout the night anyway. That makes it easier for those who may have had to travel to Golders Green to change buses whereas now they can catch a bus to Brent Cross West (in the near future), Hendon, West Hampstead, Mill Hill Broadway etc and then use Thameslink from there.
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Post by LondonNorthern on Sept 21, 2023 21:40:04 GMT
Your example isn't great I'm afraid. Both towns are far from London. The commute in the day would be bad enough. Even so Penge to Twickenham via the 176 and N22 doesn't sound too unfeasible, it's a far contrast from Willesden or Cricklewood to Golders Green where as others have said you'd need to get a bus to Marble Arch then change to the 13 which takes ages for such a small displacement Trust me. Especially when during the day there are 3 buses from Willesden to Golders Green and 4 from Cricklewood to Golders Green, showing this link is well used. Out of all those buses why dont one of these create this night link. If not an extension of the N102 down to Willesden, if creating the N260 is too costly. We should not have to go Marble Arch and back for a round the corner day time link. This person who used the Penge Twickenham example, this is a bad faith example as one is in SW London whereas the other is in SE London. Willesden and Golders Green are both in NW London and are 5-10 mins away from each other, driving while the walk is indirect and long at 40 minutes. I really don't think a night route is necessary between the two places, this is coming from someone who is local to both the N102 and 460. As was pointed out by others in this thread, typically night shift timings don't coincide with night bus schedules anyway, and much of where demand is clustered tends to be in the morning just before regular buses start. You could bin the N271 (complete failure and waste of time) and have a few earlier journeys on the 263 for example. Could also go a step further and bin the N134 as well and extend the N43 to North Finchley, N20 would still link North Finchley into Central London and Camden whilst the N43 would still link North Finchley with the city.
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Post by northlondon83 on Sept 27, 2023 12:16:26 GMT
Trust me. Especially when during the day there are 3 buses from Willesden to Golders Green and 4 from Cricklewood to Golders Green, showing this link is well used. Out of all those buses why dont one of these create this night link. If not an extension of the N102 down to Willesden, if creating the N260 is too costly. We should not have to go Marble Arch and back for a round the corner day time link. This person who used the Penge Twickenham example, this is a bad faith example as one is in SW London whereas the other is in SE London. Willesden and Golders Green are both in NW London and are 5-10 mins away from each other, driving while the walk is indirect and long at 40 minutes. I really don't think a night route is necessary between the two places, this is coming from someone who is local to both the N102 and 460. As was pointed out by others in this thread, typically night shift timings don't coincide with night bus schedules anyway, and much of where demand is clustered tends to be in the morning just before regular buses start. You could bin the N271 (complete failure and waste of time) and have a few earlier journeys on the 263 for example. Could also go a step further and bin the N134 as well and extend the N43 to North Finchley, N20 would still link North Finchley into Central London and Camden whilst the N43 would still link North Finchley with the city.
There's people in hospitality who work late shifts to 2am that might find these night buses useful |
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Post by WH241 on Sept 27, 2023 12:45:03 GMT
I really don't think a night route is necessary between the two places, this is coming from someone who is local to both the N102 and 460. As was pointed out by others in this thread, typically night shift timings don't coincide with night bus schedules anyway, and much of where demand is clustered tends to be in the morning just before regular buses start. You could bin the N271 (complete failure and waste of time) and have a few earlier journeys on the 263 for example. Could also go a step further and bin the N134 as well and extend the N43 to North Finchley, N20 would still link North Finchley into Central London and Camden whilst the N43 would still link North Finchley with the city.
There's people in hospitality who work late shifts to 2am that might find these night buses useful You can’t run a night service for a small selection of workers. As others have said and I also mentioned in the past most night shifts workers can either catch late buses or the first early morning ones. I might sound harsh but when you apply or take a job you should factor in how you are going to get there. |
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Post by southlondon413 on Sept 27, 2023 13:03:32 GMT
There's people in hospitality who work late shifts to 2am that might find these night buses useful You can’t run a night service for a small selection of workers. As others have said and I also mentioned in the past most night shifts workers can either catch late buses or the first early morning ones. I might sound harsh but when you apply or take a job you should factor in how you are going to get there. Exactly, transport is a key factor in taking a job. I have turned down jobs in n the past where I’ve gone through the interview stage, reached the final stage and realised when discussing finer details like shift patterns etc that it wouldn’t work for me because of public transport. Besides some industries, like catering, will charge clients for x amount of cabs after x time. |
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Post by britishguy54 on Sept 30, 2023 12:40:02 GMT
Orbital night routes need to serve something big, such as Heathrow for the N140 otherwise whats the point of them, if there isn't a large source of customers then really where is the main demand hence why most routes feed into Central. I have often wondered about Upminster not having a service but then again... where is the demand. The main black holes in the network are Upper Belvedere, Dagenham, Hornchurch & Ruislip which all lack central connections. A lot of routes that start outside of Z1 are somewhat pointless imo as everyone just changes (321 onto the 36) where simply extending something (N36 to Foot's Cray) would immediately have patronage from the already adequate N321 demand and then with the added attractiveness of a direct bus into Z1 is likely to stimulate demand. You just have to look at the last night buses into central and they're the busiest ones, the latter N1s & N136s into Z1 are full & standing, mainly with cleaners, builder etc. Changing & creating new routes for the shits n giggles is fun and all but there has to be a clear demands and purpose rather than simply "creating new links" - people that use night buses typically aren't the ones with mobility issues and walking over 400m to a bus isn't seen as anything more than a walk to the bus stop. Really if you live within 1.5 miles of a night bus that should be cool. I’d extend the 238’s night service (N238) to at least Rainham. Have it follow the 287 out of Barking and through Dagenham and Beam Park. And for Hornchurch, it might make sense to re-route the N86 towards Upminster, while the 174 gets a full 24 hour service. |
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Post by uakari on Oct 1, 2023 1:31:16 GMT
I think the reason boils down to travel patterns, how many people are actually making the link from Cricklewood to Golders Green at that hour? The night network predominantly aims to get people back from Central London during night hours with the expectation that people are also prepared to walk much greater distances as well. If you start linking random towns then before you know it every single route will have a justification for a night service. London is not a 24 hour city, even if some people think otherwise, it's not anything like New York is at night. This city sleeps and the demand on the transport will reflect this. The towns and neighbourhoods have the links that they need in most cases and the priority is getting people home from Central London and the few towns outside like Romford which have their own night life. In an ideal world every full time route would run at night, but we're reaching cases where even day routes don't have driver roles being filled and TfL are cash strapped to commit to providing many more night services. The other problem is that nowadays people are more inclined to use rail or an UBER depending on how far from Central London they live. The walk from Child's Hill to Cricklewood isn't exactly a walk I would particularly like to do at night especially under Cricklewood Station but given demand is low I think that'll have to suffice.
Thameslink run a 24 hour service throughout the night anyway. That makes it easier for those who may have had to travel to Golders Green to change buses whereas now they can catch a bus to Brent Cross West (in the near future), Hendon, West Hampstead, Mill Hill Broadway etc and then use Thameslink from there.
And the N113 also provides another link. When most of the night tube routes have not even come back, arguing for extra ones between places that are more central would just make TfL seem more biased. |
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Post by northlondon83 on Oct 1, 2023 6:46:54 GMT
I think the reason boils down to travel patterns, how many people are actually making the link from Cricklewood to Golders Green at that hour? The night network predominantly aims to get people back from Central London during night hours with the expectation that people are also prepared to walk much greater distances as well. If you start linking random towns then before you know it every single route will have a justification for a night service. London is not a 24 hour city, even if some people think otherwise, it's not anything like New York is at night. This city sleeps and the demand on the transport will reflect this. The towns and neighbourhoods have the links that they need in most cases and the priority is getting people home from Central London and the few towns outside like Romford which have their own night life. In an ideal world every full time route would run at night, but we're reaching cases where even day routes don't have driver roles being filled and TfL are cash strapped to commit to providing many more night services. The other problem is that nowadays people are more inclined to use rail or an UBER depending on how far from Central London they live. The walk from Child's Hill to Cricklewood isn't exactly a walk I would particularly like to do at night especially under Cricklewood Station but given demand is low I think that'll have to suffice.
Thameslink run a 24 hour service throughout the night anyway. That makes it easier for those who may have had to travel to Golders Green to change buses whereas now they can catch a bus to Brent Cross West (in the near future), Hendon, West Hampstead, Mill Hill Broadway etc and then use Thameslink from there.
Thameslink running 24h services through Cricklewood means that there should be more bus routes from there at night, especially as there is no service to Golders Green which is a link that is worth having at night. A lot of places in London do not have night routes when they should. Another thing I'd like to see is more frequent trains at night. The GWR from Paddington to Reading only runs every other hour at night, and I'd like to see this service upped to 1tph at night. Would also be good to operate services on the SWR from Waterloo on one or two branches of the SWR |
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Post by LondonNorthern on Oct 1, 2023 8:00:40 GMT
The other problem is that nowadays people are more inclined to use rail or an UBER depending on how far from Central London they live. The walk from Child's Hill to Cricklewood isn't exactly a walk I would particularly like to do at night especially under Cricklewood Station but given demand is low I think that'll have to suffice.
Thameslink run a 24 hour service throughout the night anyway. That makes it easier for those who may have had to travel to Golders Green to change buses whereas now they can catch a bus to Brent Cross West (in the near future), Hendon, West Hampstead, Mill Hill Broadway etc and then use Thameslink from there.
Thameslink running 24h services through Cricklewood means that there should be more bus routes from there at night, especially as there is no service to Golders Green which is a link that is worth having at night. A lot of places in London do not have night routes when they should. Another thing I'd like to see is more frequent trains at night. The GWR from Paddington to Reading only runs every other hour at night, and I'd like to see this service upped to 1tph at night. Would also be good to operate services on the SWR from Waterloo on one or two branches of the SWR That isn’t possible due to maintenance taking place. |
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Post by WH241 on Oct 1, 2023 8:52:42 GMT
The other problem is that nowadays people are more inclined to use rail or an UBER depending on how far from Central London they live. The walk from Child's Hill to Cricklewood isn't exactly a walk I would particularly like to do at night especially under Cricklewood Station but given demand is low I think that'll have to suffice.
Thameslink run a 24 hour service throughout the night anyway. That makes it easier for those who may have had to travel to Golders Green to change buses whereas now they can catch a bus to Brent Cross West (in the near future), Hendon, West Hampstead, Mill Hill Broadway etc and then use Thameslink from there.
Thameslink running 24h services through Cricklewood means that there should be more bus routes from there at night, especially as there is no service to Golders Green which is a link that is worth having at night. A lot of places in London do not have night routes when they should. Another thing I'd like to see is more frequent trains at night. The GWR from Paddington to Reading only runs every other hour at night, and I'd like to see this service upped to 1tph at night. Would also be good to operate services on the SWR from Waterloo on one or two branches of the SWR No matter which way you argue the case for night buses there sometimes just isn't a case for services in certain parts of London.
As for the trains I really can't see how that could be justified especially as others have mentioned things like maintenance has to take place. You have to consider the other staff needed such as station staff and operational staff no just the train drivers needed. London is a 24 hour city in some parts but we are not like other cities around the world.
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Oct 1, 2023 14:19:26 GMT
The other problem is that nowadays people are more inclined to use rail or an UBER depending on how far from Central London they live. The walk from Child's Hill to Cricklewood isn't exactly a walk I would particularly like to do at night especially under Cricklewood Station but given demand is low I think that'll have to suffice.
Thameslink run a 24 hour service throughout the night anyway. That makes it easier for those who may have had to travel to Golders Green to change buses whereas now they can catch a bus to Brent Cross West (in the near future), Hendon, West Hampstead, Mill Hill Broadway etc and then use Thameslink from there.
Thameslink running 24h services through Cricklewood means that there should be more bus routes from there at night, especially as there is no service to Golders Green which is a link that is worth having at night. A lot of places in London do not have night routes when they should. Another thing I'd like to see is more frequent trains at night. The GWR from Paddington to Reading only runs every other hour at night, and I'd like to see this service upped to 1tph at night. Would also be good to operate services on the SWR from Waterloo on one or two branches of the SWR What a weird justification, what's Thameslink got to do with more night buses needing to operate? Surely if anything that means they might be able to get away with less buses. |
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Post by northlondon83 on Oct 1, 2023 15:09:07 GMT
Thameslink running 24h services through Cricklewood means that there should be more bus routes from there at night, especially as there is no service to Golders Green which is a link that is worth having at night. A lot of places in London do not have night routes when they should. Another thing I'd like to see is more frequent trains at night. The GWR from Paddington to Reading only runs every other hour at night, and I'd like to see this service upped to 1tph at night. Would also be good to operate services on the SWR from Waterloo on one or two branches of the SWR What a weird justification, what's Thameslink got to do with more night buses needing to operate? Surely if anything that means they might be able to get away with less buses. To provide a link from the station to the surrounding areas, in this case Cricklewood to places like Golders Green. Someone might need to use this link if they're coming home from somewhere like Farringdon or Blackfriars where there is no bus link That's like saying let's axe the N222 because the GWR calls at West Drayton at night. But it is needed to provide links to Uxbridge and Hounslow which would be more convenient for some as opposed to using the N9 or N207 and then changing buses |
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Post by WH241 on Oct 1, 2023 15:21:14 GMT
What a weird justification, what's Thameslink got to do with more night buses needing to operate? Surely if anything that means they might be able to get away with less buses. To provide a link from the station to the surrounding areas, in this case Cricklewood to places like Golders Green. Someone might need to use this link if they're coming home from somewhere like Farringdon or Blackfriars where there is no bus link That's like saying let's axe the N222 because the GWR calls at West Drayton at night. But it is needed to provide links to Uxbridge and Hounslow which would be more convenient for some as opposed to using the N9 or N207 and then changing buses You can’t go creating links on the off chance someone might need a bus occasionally. There has to be a consistent demand for a service to be justified. |
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