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Post by greenboy on Oct 16, 2024 10:33:18 GMT
With the 439, I have quite a few ideas of how to improve the route: > It should ideally run via Waddon Way, Pampisford Road, Christchurch Road and Brighton Road, instead of down the quiet part of Purley Way. This provides new links from Pampisford Road to Purley Way, and also a requested link to Purley High Street, which the 9.7m buses should be able to do without the junctions needing changes. > Instead of terminating at Whyteleafe South, it can go from Whyteleafe Station to Warlingham Sainsburys (sharing a stand with the 403) via Hillbury Road, Westhall Road and Limpsfield Road. > Instead of terminating at Waddon Marsh, it can go up to Valley Park via Purley Way, Ampere Way, Franklin Way and Hesterman Way, with a new stand installed on Hesterman Way. > The odd 35 minute headway should be removed, but I would suggest a frequency increase to 3bph. > All of this can be done with the addition of 1 bus to the PVR if the frequency remains at 2bph (with a standard 30 minute headway though), or needs 3 more buses if the frequency is increased to 3bph. I like your ideas for the 439, especially point 1 (the diversion by Pampisford Road) and point 3 (extension to Hestermann Way). I think both of those would increase loadings and make the route more useful and successful.
I assume that the extension to Hestermann Way means that the 439 would run in both directions via Trafalgar Way and Drury Crescent? In order to continue to directly serve the tram stop and shops there.
Regarding point 2, I do wonder how likely an extension to Warlingham Sainsbury's would be, given that those roads you mention are in Surrey, not London. TfL would possibly want a contribution from Surrey council to make that change. I am not sure if they did that for the 434's extension to Caterham. Such a proposal may also encounter NIMBYism along Hillbury Road and Westhall Road, although I have been pleasantly surprised by the campaign for the 434 along Higher Drive so it's not necessarily the case. I think TfL would also point to the fact that the 439 already links to the Sainsbury's at Waddon Marsh, although it's a bit further away for those in Kenley.
It also removes the 439 from 2 or 3 bus stops (depending on the direction) between Whyteleafe and Whyteleafe South but the 407 and 434 are probably sufficient along there.
I certainly agree with the 439 going via Pampisford Road and I have suggested that before, it seems pointless for it to just duplicate the 289. |
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Post by SILENCED on Oct 16, 2024 10:50:12 GMT
157 is arguably another route which has long missed out on an increase and even at the Morden end loadings can definitely make it feel like it should be every 10 mins. I wouldn't quite say the 466 was cracking a walnut with a sledge hammer but maybe a cracking an egg and bar maybe a bit a few issues with school capacity I don't think it really needed to go to every 8 mins in 2017. Like you said the DD 407 every 12 mins plus now 2 extra BPH on the 312 V the 166 should in effect have allowed a 10 mins 466 with a PVR of 16. Isn't it just the Morden end of the 157 that needs an increase? From what I see of the Crystal Palace end the current frequency looks about right and obviously it's largely supported by the 75. I remember years ago the 157 operating in two sections, Morden to Crystal Palace and Raynes Park to Carshalton Wrythe Green. I think the 466 is probably the most over bussed route in London, East Croydon to Purley can be busy but both outer ends don't need that sort of frequency. Have you ever tried to get a Selhurst bound 75 or 157 at West Croydon. The 2020 Croydon bus network review identified it as a corridor that needs strengthening, but don't think it ever has. There can easily be 20+ people waiting at the Norwood Clock Tower stop going to Croydon |
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Post by greenboy on Oct 16, 2024 10:59:16 GMT
Isn't it just the Morden end of the 157 that needs an increase? From what I see of the Crystal Palace end the current frequency looks about right and obviously it's largely supported by the 75. I remember years ago the 157 operating in two sections, Morden to Crystal Palace and Raynes Park to Carshalton Wrythe Green. I think the 466 is probably the most over bussed route in London, East Croydon to Purley can be busy but both outer ends don't need that sort of frequency. Have you ever tried to get a Selhurst bound 75 or 157 at West Croydon. The 2020 Croydon bus network review identified it as a corridor that needs strengthening, but don't think it ever has. There can easily be 20+ people waiting at the Norwood Clock Tower stop going to Croydon The 75 could be increased slightly to every 12 minutes, from Norwood Clock Tower it's probably easier to walk round the corner and get LO to West Croydon. |
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Post by SILENCED on Oct 16, 2024 11:02:55 GMT
Have you ever tried to get a Selhurst bound 75 or 157 at West Croydon. The 2020 Croydon bus network review identified it as a corridor that needs strengthening, but don't think it ever has. There can easily be 20+ people waiting at the Norwood Clock Tower stop going to Croydon The 75 could be increased slightly to every 12 minutes, from Norwood Clock Tower it's probably easier to walk round the corner and get LO to West Croydon. The people are generally people who have got off the train that use that stop, same as Selhurst Station stop. |
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Post by vjaska on Oct 16, 2024 11:39:55 GMT
Isn't it just the Morden end of the 157 that needs an increase? From what I see of the Crystal Palace end the current frequency looks about right and obviously it's largely supported by the 75. I remember years ago the 157 operating in two sections, Morden to Crystal Palace and Raynes Park to Carshalton Wrythe Green. I think the 466 is probably the most over bussed route in London, East Croydon to Purley can be busy but both outer ends don't need that sort of frequency. Have you ever tried to get a Selhurst bound 75 or 157 at West Croydon. The 2020 Croydon bus network review identified it as a corridor that needs strengthening, but don't think it ever has. There can easily be 20+ people waiting at the Norwood Clock Tower stop going to Croydon Trying to board either route at the stop prior to the Norwood Junction clock tower was equally painful on mornings but I do remember afternoons trying to board 157’s (and 450’s when it was MPD’s) at West Croydon and it wasn’t pretty either. 75’s were also hectic from there though I always boarded them from Fairfield Halls right outside college where you only get a handful on who wish to do the double run around the roundabout at Fairfield |
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Post by bk10mfe on Oct 16, 2024 13:25:34 GMT
157 is arguably another route which has long missed out on an increase and even at the Morden end loadings can definitely make it feel like it should be every 10 mins. I wouldn't quite say the 466 was cracking a walnut with a sledge hammer but maybe a cracking an egg and bar maybe a bit a few issues with school capacity I don't think it really needed to go to every 8 mins in 2017. Like you said the DD 407 every 12 mins plus now 2 extra BPH on the 312 V the 166 should in effect have allowed a 10 mins 466 with a PVR of 16. Isn't it just the Morden end of the 157 that needs an increase? From what I see of the Crystal Palace end the current frequency looks about right and obviously it's largely supported by the 75. I remember years ago the 157 operating in two sections, Morden to Crystal Palace and Raynes Park to Carshalton Wrythe Green. I think the 466 is probably the most over bussed route in London, East Croydon to Purley can be busy but both outer ends don't need that sort of frequency. I’ve always thought the 353 would make sense to takeover the 466 to Croydon to create a useful Croydon-Orpington link but that might be tricky due to stand space, & yes the 466 is definitely overbussed between East Croydon & Addington but the 353 would likely then have the opposite problem as 3bph (2bph on Sundays) would probably be too low for that section. Plus the 353’s demand would probably increase if a direct Croydon-Orpington link was introduced. |
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Post by greenboy on Oct 16, 2024 13:30:47 GMT
Isn't it just the Morden end of the 157 that needs an increase? From what I see of the Crystal Palace end the current frequency looks about right and obviously it's largely supported by the 75. I remember years ago the 157 operating in two sections, Morden to Crystal Palace and Raynes Park to Carshalton Wrythe Green. I think the 466 is probably the most over bussed route in London, East Croydon to Purley can be busy but both outer ends don't need that sort of frequency. I’ve always thought the 353 would make sense to takeover the 466 to Croydon to create a useful Croydon-Orpington link but that might be tricky due to stand space, & yes the 466 is definitely overbussed between East Croydon & Addington but the 353 would likely then have the opposite problem as 3bph (2bph on Sundays) would probably be too low for that section. Plus the 353’s demand would probably increase if a direct Croydon-Orpington link was introduced. I totally agree with you on that, I think the 353 would be far better and would reinstate a direct link to Orpington and I'm sure usage would increase and justify possibly 5bph. |
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Post by ADH45258 on Oct 16, 2024 16:42:03 GMT
Revised restructure idea (based on a previous set of proposals around Central/West London)
Routes 36, 148 & 452
36 - Cut back to Paddington or Marble Arch, to improve reliability and better match capacity to/from Queens Park.
148 - Withdrawn between White City and Marble Arch, and instead extended to Queens Park via the 36. Links to Notting Hill Gate and Shepherds Bush covered by the 52/94, and capacity on that section replaced by rerouted 430 and 452 below.
452 - Withdrawn between Ladbroke Grove and Notting Hill Gate, and instead extended to White City. Providing a local link from Shepherds Bush to Kensington Church Street.
Routes 14, 74, 190, 374, 430 & C1
430 - Revised to operate between Roehampton and Marble Arch, via the current route to West Brompton, then the 328 to Notting Hill Gate and 94/148 to Marble Arch. Restoring the former 10/23 link from Kensington to Marble Arch, also linking Kensington to Putney.
74 - Extended to Putney Heath, with the 14 cut back to Putney High Street, to better match capacity with the 14's frequency due to increase. Route 74 also diverted between West Brompton and South Kensington direct via the 430.
190 - Withdrawn between West Brompton and Charing Cross Hospital, and instead extended to Putney Bridge (414 stand). To relieve the 220 on this section, and introduce a direct link from Putney to Chiswick High Street. Converted to DDs.
C1 - Withdrawn. Mostly replaced by new route 374, plus the revised 452/C3 and existing links on the 49.
374 - New route from Hammersmith to Waterloo, via the 190 to West Brompton, 74 to South Kensington, C1 to Victoria (or more directly via the full length of Eaton Square), then the former 507 to Waterloo. Using DDs every 12 minutes.
Routes 3, 11 & C10
3/C10 - Previous changes reversed, with new route 374 fully replacing the 507 links.
11 - Extended from Waterloo to London Bridge via the 381, creating new links.
Routes 31, 228, 283, 328 & C3
C3 - Extended from Earls Court to White City via the C1.
328 - Withdrawn between Chelsea and Notting Hill Gate, and instead extended to White City via the 31. Links to Kensington and Chelsea covered by the 28/430/C3.
31 - Diverted between Holland Park and Maida Hill via the 228.
228 - Withdrawn. Replaced by the 31 and 328, plus existing routes for links to Acton Vale.
283 - Extended from East Acton to Park Royal via the 228.
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Post by londonbuses on Oct 16, 2024 18:31:28 GMT
Isn't it just the Morden end of the 157 that needs an increase? From what I see of the Crystal Palace end the current frequency looks about right and obviously it's largely supported by the 75. I remember years ago the 157 operating in two sections, Morden to Crystal Palace and Raynes Park to Carshalton Wrythe Green. I think the 466 is probably the most over bussed route in London, East Croydon to Purley can be busy but both outer ends don't need that sort of frequency. I’ve always thought the 353 would make sense to takeover the 466 to Croydon to create a useful Croydon-Orpington link but that might be tricky due to stand space, & yes the 466 is definitely overbussed between East Croydon & Addington but the 353 would likely then have the opposite problem as 3bph (2bph on Sundays) would probably be too low for that section. Plus the 353’s demand would probably increase if a direct Croydon-Orpington link was introduced. I agree, the current situation is the worst of both worlds (the Croydon to Orpington direct link is broken and 466 is very overbussed), and this would solve both issues. I think 4bph would suffice for the extended 353 (and 3bph Sundays), with the 433 double running down Court Wood Lane in Forestdale to replace the 353 down there. It would have to be done as part of a wider route restructuring in Croydon though, due to the stand space issues you mention. I have a few ideas for different routes, I might post them another time when I'm less busy and have time to write them up. |
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Post by bk10mfe on Oct 16, 2024 20:28:46 GMT
I’ve always thought the 353 would make sense to takeover the 466 to Croydon to create a useful Croydon-Orpington link but that might be tricky due to stand space, & yes the 466 is definitely overbussed between East Croydon & Addington but the 353 would likely then have the opposite problem as 3bph (2bph on Sundays) would probably be too low for that section. Plus the 353’s demand would probably increase if a direct Croydon-Orpington link was introduced. I agree, the current situation is the worst of both worlds (the Croydon to Orpington direct link is broken and 466 is very overbussed), and this would solve both issues. I think 4bph would suffice for the extended 353 (and 3bph Sundays), with the 433 double running down Court Wood Lane in Forestdale to replace the 353 down there. It would have to be done as part of a wider route restructuring in Croydon though, due to the stand space issues you mention. I have a few ideas for different routes, I might post them another time when I'm less busy and have time to write them up. I think utilising the 407 split is the best way to free up stand space in Croydon. I would have one of the 403 or 433 takeover the western half of the 407 to Sutton, then keep the existing 407 between Caterham & West Croydon with an extension elsewhere. Could send it up in the Selhurst/Norwood Junction direction to assist with the busy 75/157 as mentioned previously. The 353 might additionally need to be pulled back to Orpington Centre as it might be too long to have it going all the way to Ramsden Estate (61 is an obvious replacement to cover that section there). |
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Post by greenboy on Oct 16, 2024 20:33:43 GMT
Revised restructure idea (based on a previous set of proposals around Central/West London) Routes 36, 148 & 45236 - Cut back to Paddington or Marble Arch, to improve reliability and better match capacity to/from Queens Park. 148 - Withdrawn between White City and Marble Arch, and instead extended to Queens Park via the 36. Links to Notting Hill Gate and Shepherds Bush covered by the 52/94, and capacity on that section replaced by rerouted 430 and 452 below. 452 - Withdrawn between Ladbroke Grove and Notting Hill Gate, and instead extended to White City. Providing a local link from Shepherds Bush to Kensington Church Street. Routes 14, 74, 190, 374, 430 & C1430 - Revised to operate between Roehampton and Marble Arch, via the current route to West Brompton, then the 328 to Notting Hill Gate and 94/148 to Marble Arch. Restoring the former 10/23 link from Kensington to Marble Arch, also linking Kensington to Putney. 74 - Extended to Putney Heath, with the 14 cut back to Putney High Street, to better match capacity with the 14's frequency due to increase. Route 74 also diverted between West Brompton and South Kensington direct via the 430. 190 - Withdrawn between West Brompton and Charing Cross Hospital, and instead extended to Putney Bridge (414 stand). To relieve the 220 on this section, and introduce a direct link from Putney to Chiswick High Street. Converted to DDs. C1 - Withdrawn. Mostly replaced by new route 374, plus the revised 452/C3 and existing links on the 49. 374 - New route from Hammersmith to Waterloo, via the 190 to West Brompton, 74 to South Kensington, C1 to Victoria (or more directly via the full length of Eaton Square), then the former 507 to Waterloo. Using DDs every 12 minutes. Routes 3, 11 & C103/C10 - Previous changes reversed, with new route 374 fully replacing the 507 links. 11 - Extended from Waterloo to London Bridge via the 381, creating new links. Routes 31, 228, 283, 328 & C3C3 - Extended from Earls Court to White City via the C1. 328 - Withdrawn between Chelsea and Notting Hill Gate, and instead extended to White City via the 31. Links to Kensington and Chelsea covered by the 28/430/C3. 31 - Diverted between Holland Park and Maida Hill via the 228. 228 - Withdrawn. Replaced by the 31 and 328, plus existing routes for links to Acton Vale. 283 - Extended from East Acton to Park Royal via the 228. The 148 would have to lose its LTs to go to Queens Park and the Bayswater Road to Victoria link would be lost. The revised 430 wouldn't be ideal terminating at Marble Arch unless the proposal for a stand in North Row was revisited. I'm not sure about extending the 11 to London Bridge but otherwise all seems ok to me. |
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Post by mrhk on Oct 16, 2024 21:20:49 GMT
18 - Withdrawn between Sudbury, Harrow Road and Stonebridge Park to increase reliability
182 - Withdrawn between Brent Cross and Wembley Central, instead being diverted to Willesden Jn via the 18 to make sure no links are lost and support the 18 between Stonebridge Park and Willesden Jn.
483 - Withdrawn between Harrow Bus Station and Wembley Central and diverted via current route 182 too Brent Cross. To make sure Wembley - Brent Cross links aren't broken
H14 - Extended from Northwick Park Hospital to Sudbury Harrow Road via current route 483 and 18. To make sure current links on the 483 are not broken
N18 - Short workings extending to Harrow Bus Station to allow passengers a night service across the entire route (passengers from N18 Harrow shorts can connect with N140 to access Harrow Weald)
223 - Cut back to Harrow Bus Station.
H17 - Extended to Harrow View as opposed to the 223.
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Post by COBO on Oct 16, 2024 21:51:02 GMT
18 - Withdrawn between Sudbury, Harrow Road and Stonebridge Park to increase reliability 182 - Withdrawn between Brent Cross and Wembley Central, instead being diverted to Willesden Jn via the 18 to make sure no links are lost and support the 18 between Stonebridge Park and Willesden Jn. 483 - Withdrawn between Harrow Bus Station and Wembley Central and diverted via current route 182 too Brent Cross. To make sure Wembley - Brent Cross links aren't broken H14 - Extended from Northwick Park Hospital to Sudbury Harrow Road via current route 483 and 18. To make sure current links on the 483 are not broken N18 - Short workings extending to Harrow Bus Station to allow passengers a night service across the entire route (passengers from N18 Harrow shorts can connect with N140 to access Harrow Weald) 223 - Cut back to Harrow Bus Station. H17 - Extended to Harrow View as opposed to the 223. But the link between Neasden and Northwick Park Hospital is removed. |
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Post by sdaniel on Oct 16, 2024 23:45:47 GMT
18 - Withdrawn between Sudbury, Harrow Road and Stonebridge Park to increase reliability 182 - Withdrawn between Brent Cross and Wembley Central, instead being diverted to Willesden Jn via the 18 to make sure no links are lost and support the 18 between Stonebridge Park and Willesden Jn. 483 - Withdrawn between Harrow Bus Station and Wembley Central and diverted via current route 182 too Brent Cross. To make sure Wembley - Brent Cross links aren't broken H14 - Extended from Northwick Park Hospital to Sudbury Harrow Road via current route 483 and 18. To make sure current links on the 483 are not broken N18 - Short workings extending to Harrow Bus Station to allow passengers a night service across the entire route (passengers from N18 Harrow shorts can connect with N140 to access Harrow Weald) 223 - Cut back to Harrow Bus Station. H17 - Extended to Harrow View as opposed to the 223. I would leave the 18 as it is, but I’m in support of your 182 extension (rerouting) to Willesden Junction, you could possibly even extend the 182 to Ladbroke Grove Sainsbury’s or Westbourne Park via 18’s way then 23’s way. I think it would be better to reroute the 92 to Brent Cross Shopping Centre instead of the 483 to connect new places such as Greenford to Wembley Park, Neasden and Brent Cross. You can also extend the H17 to St Raphael’s North to replace 92’s section. |
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Post by vjaska on Oct 17, 2024 0:22:12 GMT
18 - Withdrawn between Sudbury, Harrow Road and Stonebridge Park to increase reliability 182 - Withdrawn between Brent Cross and Wembley Central, instead being diverted to Willesden Jn via the 18 to make sure no links are lost and support the 18 between Stonebridge Park and Willesden Jn. 483 - Withdrawn between Harrow Bus Station and Wembley Central and diverted via current route 182 too Brent Cross. To make sure Wembley - Brent Cross links aren't broken H14 - Extended from Northwick Park Hospital to Sudbury Harrow Road via current route 483 and 18. To make sure current links on the 483 are not broken N18 - Short workings extending to Harrow Bus Station to allow passengers a night service across the entire route (passengers from N18 Harrow shorts can connect with N140 to access Harrow Weald) 223 - Cut back to Harrow Bus Station. H17 - Extended to Harrow View as opposed to the 223. I would leave the 18 as it is, but I’m in support of your 182 extension (rerouting) to Willesden Junction, you could possibly even extend the 182 to Ladbroke Grove Sainsbury’s or Westbourne Park via 18’s way then 23’s way. I think it would be better to reroute the 92 to Brent Cross Shopping Centre instead of the 483 to connect new places such as Greenford to Wembley Park, Neasden and Brent Cross. You can also extend the H17 to St Raphael’s North to replace 92’s section. The 182 is already close to 100 minutes max running time under it's current routing. Even with diverting it from Brent Cross and extending it to Willesden Junction, it would likely end up more than 100 minutes and as for Ladbroke Grove, with all due respect, that's wishful thinking to run a 182 from Harrow Weald to Ladbroke Grove. I would strongly suggest to yourself to use londonbusroutes.net to give yourself an idea of running times of routes. |
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