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Post by twobellstogo on Dec 2, 2020 14:47:51 GMT
I didn't say where it's usefulness lies and no doubt it's useful in the eastern part of the route and yes viable substitutes called the 54 & 108 exist but one of these has long had capacity issues and the 89 does not serve Blackheath, Royal Standard unlike the 54 & 108 plus the 54 leaves the 89 just before the duck pond. Furthermore, the 89 also has a section that only the 386 runs alongside it on Shooters Hill Road and which has a lot of residential housing. The 89 is a route I used to use a lot on my travels as I'd take a P4 to Lewisham, than a 89 to Bexleyheath and the 89 is hardly carrying thin air in & out of Lewisham. I saw your original post and I understood you wouldn't willingly tamper with any of the routes but it still sounded an odd thing to do personally. Fair enough, interesting to see your point of view. Don't forget that you also have the 380, which takes a different routing between Lewisham and Blackheath. Yes, of course it doesn't carry thin air but from what I've seen, the 54, 108 and 380 are the preferred routes to get to and from Blackheath. Likely because they are generally more frequent and serve Lewisham Centre. Although it was probably for the better, I do also think that the removal of the police station bus stops took a toll on the 89's usage on the Lewisham end. Sorry to return to a previous idea - that’s what being off forum for a month does! I really wouldn’t take out the 89 between Blackheath and Lewisham : given the choice, if a route has to go in the area, I’d remove one of the many Lewisham-Catford routes, possibly the 199 - diverted to East Greenwich from the Canada Water end, and extend a route terminating at Lewisham from the south or south east to Surrey Quays, but no idea what, and again it seems like fiddling with stuff for no reason. The two main problems with an 89 cutback would be it would poorly serve Blackheath Station, and the 54 in particular would be hammered, probably to the extent that the route would be too unreliable to operate at its current length. I suspect the 108 too would suffer badly.
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Post by danorak on Dec 2, 2020 15:29:28 GMT
Fair enough, interesting to see your point of view. Don't forget that you also have the 380, which takes a different routing between Lewisham and Blackheath. Yes, of course it doesn't carry thin air but from what I've seen, the 54, 108 and 380 are the preferred routes to get to and from Blackheath. Likely because they are generally more frequent and serve Lewisham Centre. Although it was probably for the better, I do also think that the removal of the police station bus stops took a toll on the 89's usage on the Lewisham end. Sorry to return to a previous idea - that’s what being off forum for a month does! I really wouldn’t take out the 89 between Blackheath and Lewisham : given the choice, if a route has to go in the area, I’d remove one of the many Lewisham-Catford routes, possibly the 199 - diverted to East Greenwich from the Canada Water end, and extend a route terminating at Lewisham from the south or south east to Surrey Quays, but no idea what, and again it seems like fiddling with stuff for no reason. The two main problems with an 89 cutback would be it would poorly serve Blackheath Station, and the 54 in particular would be hammered, probably to the extent that the route would be too unreliable to operate at its current length. I suspect the 108 too would suffer badly. Only just caught up with this one myself - there is a very heavy peak flow on the 89 from Blackheath station, often standing room only towards Shooters Hill and it needs a separate stop to the other routes to handle the queue. Bring back the 192! (Edited to add: the old 192 was incredibly unreliable but LT did used to run Lewisham - Shooters Hill 'The Bull' shorts on the 89 after the 291 came in.) I do think the 89 in its current form leaves a bit to be desired. Blackheath turns were far too common pre-Covid and it's not easy to change to another Lewisham service when you have to get off on the heath rather than in the village. The 178 is a very slow alternative for passengers on Shooters Hill Road wanting Lewisham. The Slade Green end of the route changed hands a lot over the years and I could see that getting localised or transferred to another route at some stage.
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Post by twobellstogo on Dec 2, 2020 19:20:21 GMT
Sorry to return to a previous idea - that’s what being off forum for a month does! I really wouldn’t take out the 89 between Blackheath and Lewisham : given the choice, if a route has to go in the area, I’d remove one of the many Lewisham-Catford routes, possibly the 199 - diverted to East Greenwich from the Canada Water end, and extend a route terminating at Lewisham from the south or south east to Surrey Quays, but no idea what, and again it seems like fiddling with stuff for no reason. The two main problems with an 89 cutback would be it would poorly serve Blackheath Station, and the 54 in particular would be hammered, probably to the extent that the route would be too unreliable to operate at its current length. I suspect the 108 too would suffer badly. Only just caught up with this one myself - there is a very heavy peak flow on the 89 from Blackheath station, often standing room only towards Shooters Hill and it needs a separate stop to the other routes to handle the queue. Bring back the 192! (Edited to add: the old 192 was incredibly unreliable but LT did used to run Lewisham - Shooters Hill 'The Bull' shorts on the 89 after the 291 came in.) I do think the 89 in its current form leaves a bit to be desired. Blackheath turns were far too common pre-Covid and it's not easy to change to another Lewisham service when you have to get off on the heath rather than in the village. The 178 is a very slow alternative for passengers on Shooters Hill Road wanting Lewisham. The Slade Green end of the route changed hands a lot over the years and I could see that getting localised or transferred to another route at some stage. I think the Slade Green end of the 89 would have to be transferred to another route rather than localised : Bexleyheath can barely fit in the routes currently terminating there let alone adding another. To me, the B16 would be the obvious contender for extension to Slade Green but would need frequency enhancement to match the 89 and would need conversion to d/d. The other possibility is the 486 but I think that would be a little too much like overkill, and it had curtailments to Welling with monotonous frequency pre covid.
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Post by danorak on Dec 2, 2020 19:41:46 GMT
Only just caught up with this one myself - there is a very heavy peak flow on the 89 from Blackheath station, often standing room only towards Shooters Hill and it needs a separate stop to the other routes to handle the queue. Bring back the 192! (Edited to add: the old 192 was incredibly unreliable but LT did used to run Lewisham - Shooters Hill 'The Bull' shorts on the 89 after the 291 came in.) I do think the 89 in its current form leaves a bit to be desired. Blackheath turns were far too common pre-Covid and it's not easy to change to another Lewisham service when you have to get off on the heath rather than in the village. The 178 is a very slow alternative for passengers on Shooters Hill Road wanting Lewisham. The Slade Green end of the route changed hands a lot over the years and I could see that getting localised or transferred to another route at some stage. I think the Slade Green end of the 89 would have to be transferred to another route rather than localised : Bexleyheath can barely fit in the routes currently terminating there let alone adding another. To me, the B16 would be the obvious contender for extension to Slade Green but would need frequency enhancement to match the 89 and would need conversion to d/d. The other possibility is the 486 but I think that would be a little too much like overkill, and it had curtailments to Welling with monotonous frequency pre covid. Thinking aloud here, but on that basis, maybe Welling is the place to split it. Have the 486 as Welling to North Greenwich, the 89 as Bexleyheath to Lewisham and a 489 Slade Green to Welling - this could conceivably continue to the Crossrail station at Abbey Wood providing the link from Welling that has been requested by some. Obvious drawbacks are the loss of a direct link to QE Hospital & North Greenwich from Crook Log but I don't know how many do that journey. Slade Green to Lewisham and Blackheath is probably better done by train in any event.
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Post by mkay315 on Dec 2, 2020 20:13:56 GMT
I think the Slade Green end of the 89 would have to be transferred to another route rather than localised : Bexleyheath can barely fit in the routes currently terminating there let alone adding another. To me, the B16 would be the obvious contender for extension to Slade Green but would need frequency enhancement to match the 89 and would need conversion to d/d. The other possibility is the 486 but I think that would be a little too much like overkill, and it had curtailments to Welling with monotonous frequency pre covid. Thinking aloud here, but on that basis, maybe Welling is the place to split it. Have the 486 as Welling to North Greenwich, the 89 as Bexleyheath to Lewisham and a 489 Slade Green to Welling - this could conceivably continue to the Crossrail station at Abbey Wood providing the link from Welling that has been requested by some. Obvious drawbacks are the loss of a direct link to QE Hospital & North Greenwich from Crook Log but I don't know how many do that journey. Slade Green to Lewisham and Blackheath is probably better done by train in any event. Quick question If that was to be achieved where would you put those buses to stand at Welling?
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Post by bus12451 on Dec 2, 2020 20:32:55 GMT
Thinking aloud here, but on that basis, maybe Welling is the place to split it. Have the 486 as Welling to North Greenwich, the 89 as Bexleyheath to Lewisham and a 489 Slade Green to Welling - this could conceivably continue to the Crossrail station at Abbey Wood providing the link from Welling that has been requested by some. Obvious drawbacks are the loss of a direct link to QE Hospital & North Greenwich from Crook Log but I don't know how many do that journey. Slade Green to Lewisham and Blackheath is probably better done by train in any event. Quick question If that was to be achieved where would you put those buses to stand at Welling? There is a bus stop on Springfield Road as well as a bus stand on Nags Head Lane. The one on Springfield Road might not be suitable for standing buses though.
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Post by twobellstogo on Dec 2, 2020 20:48:33 GMT
486 used to stand on Nags Head Lane before its extension to Bexleyheath. Not sure where the 489 could go to stand. Falconwood Green used to have a stand, but car parking round there would mean that would be a pain in the backside to use, there was also a bus stand just past Welling Station off Central Avenue (Tidford Road?) but I’m not sure how residents would react with buses turning there.
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Post by route53 on Dec 2, 2020 23:54:06 GMT
I’m not sure if I’ve posted this on this current thread or the old one but I’ll post it again.
I have a few ideas on how I’d reshape bus routes in South East a London, probably far fetched but here goes
180: Cut back between Plumstead & Belvedere, the 180 will be kept as a Lewisham to Plumstead route only
New Route 480: replaces 180 at the Belvedere end, but with the extension to Erith Riverside and will run time NG, this will do what the proposed 180 changes will do, but will keep the 180 as a much needed trunk route between Lewisham, Greenwich and Woolwich
161: Withdrawn between NG & Woolwich but extended to Bromley from Chislehurst, this would stretch the CrossRail net further afield
291: I’d extend this from QE Hospital to NG, down Shooters Hill Rd, Blackheath then down the A102 non stop to Tunnel Avenue, this would maintain the additional link between NG & QE Hospital via a quicker way
286: Double decked, extended from Greenwich to either New Cross or Surrey Quays
129: Still extended beyond Greenwich but to Catford
New Route 479: Kidbrooke Village to Charlton Riverside Shops
386: Rerouted to New Cross
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Post by danorak on Dec 3, 2020 0:03:25 GMT
Thinking aloud here, but on that basis, maybe Welling is the place to split it. Have the 486 as Welling to North Greenwich, the 89 as Bexleyheath to Lewisham and a 489 Slade Green to Welling - this could conceivably continue to the Crossrail station at Abbey Wood providing the link from Welling that has been requested by some. Obvious drawbacks are the loss of a direct link to QE Hospital & North Greenwich from Crook Log but I don't know how many do that journey. Slade Green to Lewisham and Blackheath is probably better done by train in any event. Quick question If that was to be achieved where would you put those buses to stand at Welling? As already mentioned, the Springfield Road/Nags Head Lane turn was used in the past for the 486, and also the B15, 124 and 160 have turned there. There's another stand as well in Churchfield Road.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2020 7:56:13 GMT
486 used to stand on Nags Head Lane before its extension to Bexleyheath. Not sure where the 489 could go to stand. Falconwood Green used to have a stand, but car parking round there would mean that would be a pain in the backside to use, there was also a bus stand just past Welling Station off Central Avenue (Tidford Road?) but I’m not sure how residents would react with buses turning there. 439 could use the Churchfield Road stand adjacent to Welling Library - although it wouldn't be able to serve the station in that case.
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Post by busman on Dec 3, 2020 9:57:05 GMT
I’m not sure if I’ve posted this on this current thread or the old one but I’ll post it again. I have a few ideas on how I’d reshape bus routes in South East a London, probably far fetched but here goes 180: Cut back between Plumstead & Belvedere, the 180 will be kept as a Lewisham to Plumstead route only New Route 480: replaces 180 at the Belvedere end, but with the extension to Erith Riverside and will run time NG, this will do what the proposed 180 changes will do, but will keep the 180 as a much needed trunk route between Lewisham, Greenwich and Woolwich 161: Withdrawn between NG & Woolwich but extended to Bromley from Chislehurst, this would stretch the CrossRail net further afield 291: I’d extend this from QE Hospital to NG, down Shooters Hill Rd, Blackheath then down the A102 non stop to Tunnel Avenue, this would maintain the additional link between NG & QE Hospital via a quicker way 286: Double decked, extended from Greenwich to either New Cross or Surrey Quays 129: Still extended beyond Greenwich but to Catford New Route 479: Kidbrooke Village to Charlton Riverside Shops 386: Rerouted to New Cross Whilst I see the logic of the 180/480 idea, but I think it would lead to over capacity on the East Greenwich-Lewisham corridor, considering your idea to extend the 129. If your aim is to maintain the 180 links to Lewisham whilst still supplying a service to Erith Quarry via the Elizabeth Line at Abbey Wood, how about leaving the 180 unchanged and instead have a short extension of the 469 to Erith Quarry? Then there would be no need to change the 180 or the 129. I like the 161 idea, that would be a link I might use to and from from Woolwich or QEH. Whenever I’ve been at the Woolwich DLR stop, the 161 doesn’t appear to carry many through passengers. Usually a handful at best. I’ve even seen some buses empty. Excluding late evenings, my observations are limited to Monday to Friday towards the end of the pm peak. Passengers living along the route between Eltham and Woolwich may feel differently though. The 291 extension is a non-starter, as technically it doesn’t terminate at Woodlands Estate. It stands at the stop for a few minutes, changes destination, before setting off back to QEH. Any significant extension beyond QEH would have be facilitated by an extension at the Woodlands end to somewhere with a proper stand and driver facilities. Although I agree, there is a lot more that could be done with the 291. What would the proposed routing be for the 386 and 479? The current 386 routing makes my head spin!
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Post by route53 on Dec 3, 2020 10:19:36 GMT
I’m not sure if I’ve posted this on this current thread or the old one but I’ll post it again. I have a few ideas on how I’d reshape bus routes in South East a London, probably far fetched but here goes 180: Cut back between Plumstead & Belvedere, the 180 will be kept as a Lewisham to Plumstead route only New Route 480: replaces 180 at the Belvedere end, but with the extension to Erith Riverside and will run time NG, this will do what the proposed 180 changes will do, but will keep the 180 as a much needed trunk route between Lewisham, Greenwich and Woolwich 161: Withdrawn between NG & Woolwich but extended to Bromley from Chislehurst, this would stretch the CrossRail net further afield 291: I’d extend this from QE Hospital to NG, down Shooters Hill Rd, Blackheath then down the A102 non stop to Tunnel Avenue, this would maintain the additional link between NG & QE Hospital via a quicker way 286: Double decked, extended from Greenwich to either New Cross or Surrey Quays 129: Still extended beyond Greenwich but to Catford New Route 479: Kidbrooke Village to Charlton Riverside Shops 386: Rerouted to New Cross Whilst I see the logic of the 180/480 idea, but I think it would lead to over capacity on the East Greenwich-Lewisham corridor, considering your idea to extend the 129. If your aim is to maintain the 180 links to Lewisham whilst still supplying a service to Erith Quarry via the Elizabeth Line at Abbey Wood, how about leaving the 180 unchanged and instead have a short extension of the 469 to Erith Quarry? Then there would be no need to change the 180 or the 129. I like the 161 idea, that would be a link I might use to and from from Woolwich or QEH. Whenever I’ve been at the Woolwich DLR stop, the 161 doesn’t appear to carry many through passengers. Usually a handful at best. I’ve even seen some buses empty. Excluding late evenings, my observations are limited to Monday to Friday towards the end of the pm peak. Passengers living along the route between Eltham and Woolwich may feel differently though. The 291 extension is a non-starter, as technically it doesn’t terminate at Woodlands Estate. It stands at the stop for a few minutes, changes destination, before setting off back to QEH. Any significant extension beyond QEH would have be facilitated by an extension at the Woodlands end to somewhere with a proper stand and driver facilities. Although I agree, there is a lot more that could be done with the 291. What would the proposed routing be for the 386 and 479? The current 386 routing makes my head spin! I am in two minds about the 129, I do feel more could be done with the route but at the same time I feel it does a good job at being a local Greenwich Route, ferrying passengers from the town centre to the transport hub and entertainment centre via a major shopping park. But in this scenario the 180 would be best not being duplicated west of East Greenwich, I have heard that due to the delay in CrossRail opening that some of the proposed changes will be reviewed so hopefully they won’t butcher this route after all The 291 could perhaps be extended to Welling? The 291 is similar to the 129 in the sense that it’s a localised Town Route in the Woolwich area, but I think more could be done with it. As for the 386 and new route 479, for the 386 I’d have it continue on to Deptford and New Cross via the 177 The 479 would run from Kidbrooke Village via Blackheath Royal Standard, then toward Charlton Village, down Charlton Lane before terminating at the shops
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Post by bus12451 on Dec 3, 2020 10:34:40 GMT
Whilst I see the logic of the 180/480 idea, but I think it would lead to over capacity on the East Greenwich-Lewisham corridor, considering your idea to extend the 129. If your aim is to maintain the 180 links to Lewisham whilst still supplying a service to Erith Quarry via the Elizabeth Line at Abbey Wood, how about leaving the 180 unchanged and instead have a short extension of the 469 to Erith Quarry? Then there would be no need to change the 180 or the 129. I like the 161 idea, that would be a link I might use to and from from Woolwich or QEH. Whenever I’ve been at the Woolwich DLR stop, the 161 doesn’t appear to carry many through passengers. Usually a handful at best. I’ve even seen some buses empty. Excluding late evenings, my observations are limited to Monday to Friday towards the end of the pm peak. Passengers living along the route between Eltham and Woolwich may feel differently though. The 291 extension is a non-starter, as technically it doesn’t terminate at Woodlands Estate. It stands at the stop for a few minutes, changes destination, before setting off back to QEH. Any significant extension beyond QEH would have be facilitated by an extension at the Woodlands end to somewhere with a proper stand and driver facilities. Although I agree, there is a lot more that could be done with the 291. What would the proposed routing be for the 386 and 479? The current 386 routing makes my head spin! I am in two minds about the 129, I do feel more could be done with the route but at the same time I feel it does a good job at being a local Greenwich Route, ferrying passengers from the town centre to the transport hub and entertainment centre via a major shopping park. But in this scenario the 180 would be best not being duplicated west of East Greenwich, I have heard that due to the delay in CrossRail opening that some of the proposed changes will be reviewed so hopefully they won’t butcher this route after all The 291 could perhaps be extended to Welling? The 291 is similar to the 129 in the sense that it’s a localised Town Route in the Woolwich area, but I think more could be done with it. As for the 386 and new route 479, for the 386 I’d have it continue on to Deptford and New Cross via the 177 The 479 would run from Kidbrooke Village via Blackheath Royal Standard, then toward Charlton Village, down Charlton Lane before terminating at the shops Quite a selfish opinion but I do wish that TfL would just leave the 180 alone. Given that the 51 already provides a decent link between Woolwich and Welling, I don't think there's much of a need to extend the 291 there, especially as it would lead to a large portion of Woodlands Estate without a bus link. I like your 479 idea, link would definitely be needed.
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Post by twobellstogo on Dec 3, 2020 10:50:10 GMT
486 used to stand on Nags Head Lane before its extension to Bexleyheath. Not sure where the 489 could go to stand. Falconwood Green used to have a stand, but car parking round there would mean that would be a pain in the backside to use, there was also a bus stand just past Welling Station off Central Avenue (Tidford Road?) but I’m not sure how residents would react with buses turning there. 439 could use the Churchfield Road stand adjacent to Welling Library - although it wouldn't be able to serve the station in that case. I don’t think serving the station is critical for any 489 (the station stop will still have plenty of buses) so Churchfield Road may well be A Plan.
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Post by busman on Dec 3, 2020 10:50:20 GMT
I am in two minds about the 129, I do feel more could be done with the route but at the same time I feel it does a good job at being a local Greenwich Route, ferrying passengers from the town centre to the transport hub and entertainment centre via a major shopping park. But in this scenario the 180 would be best not being duplicated west of East Greenwich, I have heard that due to the delay in CrossRail opening that some of the proposed changes will be reviewed so hopefully they won’t butcher this route after all The 291 could perhaps be extended to Welling? The 291 is similar to the 129 in the sense that it’s a localised Town Route in the Woolwich area, but I think more could be done with it. As for the 386 and new route 479, for the 386 I’d have it continue on to Deptford and New Cross via the 177 The 479 would run from Kidbrooke Village via Blackheath Royal Standard, then toward Charlton Village, down Charlton Lane before terminating at the shops Quite a selfish opinion but I do wish that TfL would just leave the 180 alone. Given that the 51 already provides a decent link between Woolwich and Welling, I don't think there's much of a need to extend the 291 there, especially as it would lead to a large portion of Woodlands Estate without a bus link. I like your 479 idea, link would definitely be needed. I’m in two minds about the 180. The proposed changes will halve the number of buses I can get to Greenwich Town Centre. That corridor can be extremely busy, especially returning back from Greenwich. However, having a new direct link to the O2 and the shops along Bugsby’s Way would get me out of my car for a few more journeys. That 479 idea seems like it plugs the missed opportunity that is the 335. Instead of introducing more buses to Kidbrooke Estate, why not divert the 335 at Royal Standard via Charlton Road, Church Lane , Anchor & Hope Lane, Bugsby’s Way then back to line of route?
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