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Post by bus12451 on Dec 3, 2020 11:12:17 GMT
Quite a selfish opinion but I do wish that TfL would just leave the 180 alone. Given that the 51 already provides a decent link between Woolwich and Welling, I don't think there's much of a need to extend the 291 there, especially as it would lead to a large portion of Woodlands Estate without a bus link. I like your 479 idea, link would definitely be needed. I’m in two minds about the 180. The proposed changes will halve the number of buses I can get to Greenwich Town Centre. That corridor can be extremely busy, especially returning back from Greenwich. However, having a new direct link to the O2 and the shops along Bugsby’s Way would get me out of my car for a few more journeys. That 479 idea seems like it plugs the missed opportunity that is the 335. Instead of introducing more buses to Kidbrooke Estate, why not divert the 335 at Royal Standard via Charlton Road, Church Lane , Anchor & Hope Lane, Bugsby’s Way then back to line of route? I am actually one of the few people who use the 180 from Abbey Wood to Lewisham. Whilst there are alternatives, losing my beloved Lewisham link doesn't sit right with me. It's would be nice to have a NG link but there also going to be the 472 for that. Yes I don't think that routing for the 335 was even considered during the consultation stage. I too would've sent it that way.
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Post by route53 on Dec 3, 2020 11:55:48 GMT
I am in two minds about the 129, I do feel more could be done with the route but at the same time I feel it does a good job at being a local Greenwich Route, ferrying passengers from the town centre to the transport hub and entertainment centre via a major shopping park. But in this scenario the 180 would be best not being duplicated west of East Greenwich, I have heard that due to the delay in CrossRail opening that some of the proposed changes will be reviewed so hopefully they won’t butcher this route after all The 291 could perhaps be extended to Welling? The 291 is similar to the 129 in the sense that it’s a localised Town Route in the Woolwich area, but I think more could be done with it. As for the 386 and new route 479, for the 386 I’d have it continue on to Deptford and New Cross via the 177 The 479 would run from Kidbrooke Village via Blackheath Royal Standard, then toward Charlton Village, down Charlton Lane before terminating at the shops Quite a selfish opinion but I do wish that TfL would just leave the 180 alone. Given that the 51 already provides a decent link between Woolwich and Welling, I don't think there's much of a need to extend the 291 there, especially as it would lead to a large portion of Woodlands Estate without a bus link. I like your 479 idea, link would definitely be needed. It’s not selfish I quite agree with you, the 180 works better in its current form, personally I don’t see the need for Erith to be connected to NG especially since Abbey Wood CrossRail will soon be down the road, it’s not the year 2000 when the Jubilee line extension was new, however for the sake of a compromise the 480 could be NG to Erith Riverside and the 180 maintains its western link between Lewisham & Plumstead
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Post by vjaska on Dec 3, 2020 12:56:25 GMT
Whilst I see the logic of the 180/480 idea, but I think it would lead to over capacity on the East Greenwich-Lewisham corridor, considering your idea to extend the 129. If your aim is to maintain the 180 links to Lewisham whilst still supplying a service to Erith Quarry via the Elizabeth Line at Abbey Wood, how about leaving the 180 unchanged and instead have a short extension of the 469 to Erith Quarry? Then there would be no need to change the 180 or the 129. I like the 161 idea, that would be a link I might use to and from from Woolwich or QEH. Whenever I’ve been at the Woolwich DLR stop, the 161 doesn’t appear to carry many through passengers. Usually a handful at best. I’ve even seen some buses empty. Excluding late evenings, my observations are limited to Monday to Friday towards the end of the pm peak. Passengers living along the route between Eltham and Woolwich may feel differently though. The 291 extension is a non-starter, as technically it doesn’t terminate at Woodlands Estate. It stands at the stop for a few minutes, changes destination, before setting off back to QEH. Any significant extension beyond QEH would have be facilitated by an extension at the Woodlands end to somewhere with a proper stand and driver facilities. Although I agree, there is a lot more that could be done with the 291. What would the proposed routing be for the 386 and 479? The current 386 routing makes my head spin! I am in two minds about the 129, I do feel more could be done with the route but at the same time I feel it does a good job at being a local Greenwich Route, ferrying passengers from the town centre to the transport hub and entertainment centre via a major shopping park. But in this scenario the 180 would be best not being duplicated west of East Greenwich, I have heard that due to the delay in CrossRail opening that some of the proposed changes will be reviewed so hopefully they won’t butcher this route after all The 291 could perhaps be extended to Welling? The 291 is similar to the 129 in the sense that it’s a localised Town Route in the Woolwich area, but I think more could be done with it. As for the 386 and new route 479, for the 386 I’d have it continue on to Deptford and New Cross via the 177 The 479 would run from Kidbrooke Village via Blackheath Royal Standard, then toward Charlton Village, down Charlton Lane before terminating at the shops Wouldn't the 386 potentially become overcrowded if it turns up ahead of the 177 especially given the size of it's buses - personally, doesn't seem like a good idea to me.
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Post by route53 on Dec 3, 2020 13:15:13 GMT
Quite a selfish opinion but I do wish that TfL would just leave the 180 alone. Given that the 51 already provides a decent link between Woolwich and Welling, I don't think there's much of a need to extend the 291 there, especially as it would lead to a large portion of Woodlands Estate without a bus link. I like your 479 idea, link would definitely be needed. I’m in two minds about the 180. The proposed changes will halve the number of buses I can get to Greenwich Town Centre. That corridor can be extremely busy, especially returning back from Greenwich. However, having a new direct link to the O2 and the shops along Bugsby’s Way would get me out of my car for a few more journeys. That 479 idea seems like it plugs the missed opportunity that is the 335. Instead of introducing more buses to Kidbrooke Estate, why not divert the 335 at Royal Standard via Charlton Road, Church Lane , Anchor & Hope Lane, Bugsby’s Way then back to line of route? I can see some merit in the proposed 180 changes but ultimately all the slack will be left to the 177 between Woolwich and Greenwich and that route is busy at the best of times, it’ll be hell if the 180 changes go ahead, I just feel that it would be best to split the 180 in half, the eastern half will do the proposed 180 route as the 480. The 335 routing is a lost opportunity, but I think a dedicated Charlton to Kidbrooke route will fill this gap, I think having the 335 routed via Anchor and Hope Lane to NG might be off putting to Kidbrooke commuters I guess, at least with a separate 479 route it’ll separate between tube passengers and shoppers, the 335 has been busy since it started and is a godsend gem of a route, I would even say that the 335 could be extended to either Lee Green or to New Eltham, further making the long winded 161 to NG redundant.
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Post by mkay315 on Dec 3, 2020 15:40:25 GMT
Oh alright cheers for that
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Post by mkay315 on Dec 3, 2020 15:42:07 GMT
Quick question If that was to be achieved where would you put those buses to stand at Welling? As already mentioned, the Springfield Road/Nags Head Lane turn was used in the past for the 486, and also the B15, 124 and 160 have turned there. There's another stand as well in Churchfield Road. cheers for that.
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Post by twobellstogo on Dec 3, 2020 19:36:12 GMT
Quite a selfish opinion but I do wish that TfL would just leave the 180 alone. Given that the 51 already provides a decent link between Woolwich and Welling, I don't think there's much of a need to extend the 291 there, especially as it would lead to a large portion of Woodlands Estate without a bus link. I like your 479 idea, link would definitely be needed. It’s not selfish I quite agree with you, the 180 works better in its current form, personally I don’t see the need for Erith to be connected to NG especially since Abbey Wood CrossRail will soon be down the road, it’s not the year 2000 when the Jubilee line extension was new, however for the sake of a compromise the 480 could be NG to Erith Riverside and the 180 maintains its western link between Lewisham & Plumstead I would use the 180 in its new proposed form, and I’m afraid I’m probably in a minority of one on this forum in supporting the 180 changes. Many people underestimate the demand for North Greenwich. It’s a station quite a decent distance from central London that lies in zone 2, which makes it a remarkably cheap way to travel quickly to the centre of town from quite a substantial area of South East London, and I think demand will still be heavy even after the Lizzy Line is opened. That said : once the 180 changes, I think it would be nice to see an upping of frequency on the 177, probably at all times. For those interested, Erith Quarry is still a building site, but a rather more complete building site than 6 months ago! My suspicion is the 180 terminal in the Quarry will be very close to Carlton Road, so almost Northumberland Heath. The B12 will also pass very close to the new estate and will provide the main service to Bexleyheath from the area - so that’s another route that may need enhancing in the future.
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Post by route53 on Dec 3, 2020 20:09:19 GMT
It’s not selfish I quite agree with you, the 180 works better in its current form, personally I don’t see the need for Erith to be connected to NG especially since Abbey Wood CrossRail will soon be down the road, it’s not the year 2000 when the Jubilee line extension was new, however for the sake of a compromise the 480 could be NG to Erith Riverside and the 180 maintains its western link between Lewisham & Plumstead I would use the 180 in its new proposed form, and I’m afraid I’m probably in a minority of one on this forum in supporting the 180 changes. Many people underestimate the demand for North Greenwich. It’s a station quite a decent distance from central London that lies in zone 2, which makes it a remarkably cheap way to travel quickly to the centre of town from quite a substantial area of South East London, and I think demand will still be heavy even after the Lizzy Line is opened. That said : once the 180 changes, I think it would be nice to see an upping of frequency on the 177, probably at all times. For those interested, Erith Quarry is still a building site, but a rather more complete building site than 6 months ago! My suspicion is the 180 terminal in the Quarry will be very close to Carlton Road, so almost Northumberland Heath. The B12 will also pass very close to the new estate and will provide the main service to Bexleyheath from the area - so that’s another route that may need enhancing in the future. That’s why it would be better to split the 180 into two routes, with the NG to Erith portion being the 480. While I agree that demand for NG wont fall, CrossRail will still take a good portion of Abbey Wood and Woolwich customers away from there.
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Post by twobellstogo on Dec 3, 2020 21:10:46 GMT
I would use the 180 in its new proposed form, and I’m afraid I’m probably in a minority of one on this forum in supporting the 180 changes. Many people underestimate the demand for North Greenwich. It’s a station quite a decent distance from central London that lies in zone 2, which makes it a remarkably cheap way to travel quickly to the centre of town from quite a substantial area of South East London, and I think demand will still be heavy even after the Lizzy Line is opened. That said : once the 180 changes, I think it would be nice to see an upping of frequency on the 177, probably at all times. For those interested, Erith Quarry is still a building site, but a rather more complete building site than 6 months ago! My suspicion is the 180 terminal in the Quarry will be very close to Carlton Road, so almost Northumberland Heath. The B12 will also pass very close to the new estate and will provide the main service to Bexleyheath from the area - so that’s another route that may need enhancing in the future. That’s why it would be better to split the 180 into two routes, with the NG to Erith portion being the 480. While I agree that demand for NG wont fall, CrossRail will still take a good portion of Abbey Wood and Woolwich customers away from there. Not a fan of 180/480 either I’m afraid: more 177s I think would suffice imo. Of your ideas on the previous page, I like the 129 on to Catford, and the 286 would be well worth converting to d/d, if a way can be found to sort out the problems with d/d on the Queen Mary’s Hospital loop. As far as extending it goes, I’d make it very minimal, just to get it away from Cutty Sark. Maybe a stand could be created at Waitrose or Greenwich Station, or maybe cram a second route into Deptford Bridge terminal. I would leave both the 291 and 386 be.
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Post by route53 on Dec 3, 2020 21:20:08 GMT
That’s why it would be better to split the 180 into two routes, with the NG to Erith portion being the 480. While I agree that demand for NG wont fall, CrossRail will still take a good portion of Abbey Wood and Woolwich customers away from there. Not a fan of 180/480 either I’m afraid: more 177s I think would suffice imo. Of your ideas on the previous page, I like the 129 on to Catford, and the 286 would be well worth converting to d/d, if a way can be found to sort out the problems with d/d on the Queen Mary’s Hospital loop. As far as extending it goes, I’d make it very minimal, just to get it away from Cutty Sark. Maybe a stand could be created at Waitrose or Greenwich Station, or maybe cram a second route into Deptford Bridge terminal. I would leave both the 291 and 386 be. I think the 180/480 split would be a great compromise, I don’t see the purpose in breaking a well used and busy trunk route, without a worthy replacement, which the proposals don’t provide. I think the 286 could well be extended further but it’s a question of where to. The 129 to Catford would be good but redundant if the 180 stays at Lewisham.
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Post by ADH45258 on Dec 3, 2020 23:10:10 GMT
Not a fan of 180/480 either I’m afraid: more 177s I think would suffice imo. Of your ideas on the previous page, I like the 129 on to Catford, and the 286 would be well worth converting to d/d, if a way can be found to sort out the problems with d/d on the Queen Mary’s Hospital loop. As far as extending it goes, I’d make it very minimal, just to get it away from Cutty Sark. Maybe a stand could be created at Waitrose or Greenwich Station, or maybe cram a second route into Deptford Bridge terminal. I would leave both the 291 and 386 be. I think the 180/480 split would be a great compromise, I don’t see the purpose in breaking a well used and busy trunk route, without a worthy replacement, which the proposals don’t provide. I think the 286 could well be extended further but it’s a question of where to. The 129 to Catford would be good but redundant if the 180 stays at Lewisham. I'm not sure if the 180 is needed to North Greenwich, in addition to the 161, 422 and 472. Could perhaps keep the 180 unchanged, perhaps cut back to Woolwich or Abbey Wood with another route extended to Erith? The 129 could perhaps instead extend to Peckham via the 177, allowing the lengthly 177 to be shortened for reliability.
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Post by route53 on Dec 3, 2020 23:25:12 GMT
I think the 180/480 split would be a great compromise, I don’t see the purpose in breaking a well used and busy trunk route, without a worthy replacement, which the proposals don’t provide. I think the 286 could well be extended further but it’s a question of where to. The 129 to Catford would be good but redundant if the 180 stays at Lewisham. I'm not sure if the 180 is needed to North Greenwich, in addition to the 161, 422 and 472. Could perhaps keep the 180 unchanged, perhaps cut back to Woolwich or Abbey Wood with another route extended to Erith? The 129 could perhaps instead extend to Peckham via the 177, allowing the lengthly 177 to be shortened for reliability. I know it would be impractical but I did think that perhaps the 286 could be extended to Peckham replacing the 177 between Peckham & Greenwich, while the 177 was rerouted to Canada Water/Surrey Quays but I now think the 177 should stay as it is, the 286 could still be extended however. The 129 could extend to Catford or Grove Park, as for the 161 I’d simply cut it back to Woolwich and extend it southward to Bromley, provided if it got an extension beyond Woodlands Estate I’d extend the 291 to NG, I know that’s unpopular to many on here but I think it would useful.
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Dec 3, 2020 23:42:20 GMT
I think the 180/480 split would be a great compromise, I don’t see the purpose in breaking a well used and busy trunk route, without a worthy replacement, which the proposals don’t provide. I think the 286 could well be extended further but it’s a question of where to. The 129 to Catford would be good but redundant if the 180 stays at Lewisham. I'm not sure if the 180 is needed to North Greenwich, in addition to the 161, 422 and 472. Could perhaps keep the 180 unchanged, perhaps cut back to Woolwich or Abbey Wood with another route extended to Erith? The 129 could perhaps instead extend to Peckham via the 177, allowing the lengthly 177 to be shortened for reliability. The whole reason for the 129 extension is to provide a 108 alternative from North Greenwich to Lewisham which the 180 left unchanged would not do. I reckon TfL are a bit worried about over-bussing the corridor to Lewisham so are cutting the 180 back instead. Woolwich does have the 54, 122 and 380 running to Lewisham aside from the 180 already. However as you say they seem to be overbussing the corridor to North Greenwich instead, I really don't know where the stand space at North Greenwich is for the 180 unless it stands apart from the main stand area which will require either a different alighting stop or a different pick up stop. Woolwich does seem to have many routes paralleling others which all seemingly go to the same place. Many routes to North Greenwich, many routes to Lewisham and many routes to Bexleyheath however there's good reason for that as that's where most people want to go from the Woolwich area, these links will probably be in even more demand if/when that line that they're apparently building ever opens.
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Post by vjaska on Dec 4, 2020 0:36:22 GMT
I'm not sure if the 180 is needed to North Greenwich, in addition to the 161, 422 and 472. Could perhaps keep the 180 unchanged, perhaps cut back to Woolwich or Abbey Wood with another route extended to Erith? The 129 could perhaps instead extend to Peckham via the 177, allowing the lengthly 177 to be shortened for reliability. I know it would be impractical but I did think that perhaps the 286 could be extended to Peckham replacing the 177 between Peckham & Greenwich, while the 177 was rerouted to Canada Water/Surrey Quays but I now think the 177 should stay as it is, the 286 could still be extended however. The 129 could extend to Catford or Grove Park, as for the 161 I’d simply cut it back to Woolwich and extend it southward to Bromley, provided if it got an extension beyond Woodlands Estate I’d extend the 291 to NG, I know that’s unpopular to many on here but I think it would useful. I don't think the 286 would be best being extended to Peckham when you consider that reliability may diminish as a result as currently, the corridor between Greenwich & Charlton has been wrecked by the cycle lanes. Greenwich already has two routes with questionable reliability with the 177 & 188, possibly 180 as well and the 286, as a single decker route, would be overwhelmed if replacing the 177 west of Greenwich. I think Lewisham may be far enough for the 129 currently due to the 199 already providing a Greenwich to Catford link as well as multiple routes running through Lewisham & Catford that serve Grove Park already. The 161 to Bromley would probably overbuses the Bickley corridor which probably explains why it stops at Chislehurst and as for the 291, whilst I can see merit in an extension southwards from the estate, I'm not sure what would be the purpose of a potentially less reliable link to the estate as a result of going to North Greenwich as currently, I suspect getting the 291 to Woolwich and then taking a North Greenwich service would be more benificial as then the estate still gets a pretty reliable service as Woolwich is really the only major headache to pass through and is only nearby after all. I'm not local so feel free to ignore
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Post by wirewiper on Dec 4, 2020 8:30:16 GMT
"Extend the 148 to Acton Green and withdraw the 94, as it only operates every 4 minutes at peak times so is clearly not needed".
- Yes, great idea!
"Withdraw the 476 and extend the 73 to Northumberland Park, thereby seriously overbussing the section north of Tottenham".
- Fantastic idea, keep 'em coming!
"Reroute the 180 to North Greenwich and extend the 129 to Lewisham in its place, creating useful new local links".
- Oh, now you're just being ridiculous.
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