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Post by LondonNorthern on Jun 23, 2021 17:09:26 GMT
Yes a double decker can go down the 143s full route it's been mentioned on here before. If I was in charge I'd tell the residents to deal with it and there are much worse problems in the world (harsh I know) Money is not unlimited so having a 143/443 is an absolute no, I'd much rather if money was to be spent locally that it be used on opening up brand new links such as to and from the Royal Free or even use that money to imburse routes like the 251 with a capacity increase.
Once again, this debate has been done to death and unless TFL has a magic money tree I cannot see them introducing two near identical routes side by side. Plus you leave the overcrowding Finchley High Street section to the 143 which is single decker (which is far busier than down past Holmwood Gardens) so you aren't solving any problems there.
You don’t know what TfL are planing to do and confirmed it? What I can probably say safely is that the 143 will not have an identical route next to it (TFL would either increase the frequency or deck it) and in the latest mention of a bus review in the general vecinity of the 143 being the Harringay Bus Study did not mention anything about the 143 and though mentioned not sensible things they definitely mentioned some welcomed changes such as a route running to Muswell Hill from areas like Hampstead
Hopefully in the Brent Cross development paper it mentions something like decking the 143. Not related but the 382 is starting to become one in fantasy I think would benefit from a decking or a peak time increase.
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Post by enviroPB on Jun 23, 2021 17:18:59 GMT
Why not extend either the D7 to Canning Town it’s not extended that far and could probably cope with the same or +2 frequency which could be sourced once the 180 moves to stagecoach? The D7 is already a around the houses route and don't see what major benefits a Canning Town to Canary Wharf route brings especially with the DLR and Tube plus 115 is only two stops away from where the D7 terminates towards All Saints. Be it round the houses or not, the D7 has a journey time of barely 30 mins so is a good candidate to extend to Canning Town. Links from Newham to the Isle of Dogs in particular is very poor, and if you remove the D8 it's non-existent. Due to the D7's frequency and that right turn from Bazely Street onto East India Dock Road, it's going to run into considerable traffic woes that shouldn't be explored. The D3 should instead be extended to Canning Town, to better serve Newham residents with Tower Hamlets and in particular the Isle of Dogs. If the 330 is extended to North Woolwich Road then there's the stand space available for the D3 at the bus station.
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Post by SILENCED on Jun 23, 2021 17:22:32 GMT
Is the 353 really needed. Who wants to travel from New Addington to Orpington? Not many. Agreed, double run the 433 along Courtwood Lane will boost usage along that section, in the same way the 353 killed it off. To me I would curtail the 353 at Hayes Station. I think you're right, there's not much need for the 353 in its current form and even the reduced x 20 minutes headway is generous, shame as I remember it being quite well used when it went to Croydon. Either return it to Croydon instead of the 466 or cut it back to Hayes as you suggested. 357 was the busier route, virtually what the 433 is today. 353 was never frequent outside of peaks ... and tram takes care of it's Croydon traffic, so has no need to return to Croydon ... do not know how well use it is used at the Orpington end, but to me seems a waste of resources from the Croydon end.
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Post by SILENCED on Jun 23, 2021 17:26:18 GMT
Is the 353 really needed. Who wants to travel from New Addington to Orpington? Not many. Agreed, double run the 433 along Courtwood Lane will boost usage along that section, in the same way the 353 killed it off. To me I would curtail the 353 at Hayes Station. I think you're right, there's not much need for the 353 in its current form and even the reduced x 20 minutes headway is generous, shame as I remember it being quite well used when it went to Croydon. Either return it to Croydon instead of the 466 or cut it back to Hayes as you suggested. Whilst I agree that the 353 should never of been diverted into Forestdale, terminating it at Hayes (or even at Coney Hall) would surely be the end of the route? Not a great advert for public transport that would be and a home run for car usage. Surely, it would be better to restructure the route, maybe explore a new link for it east of Hayes like diverting it to Shrublands via Glebe Way & West Wickham and increase it back to 15 minutes - the cut to 20 has surely put off many regulars anywhere as people vote with their feet. If the chopping of the route funded an extra bus on the 433 so it could double run Courtwood Lane, thereby probably increasing passenger numbers, is that not a positive thing?
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Post by WH241 on Jun 23, 2021 17:33:28 GMT
The D7 is already a around the houses route and don't see what major benefits a Canning Town to Canary Wharf route brings especially with the DLR and Tube plus 115 is only two stops away from where the D7 terminates towards All Saints. Be it round the houses or not, the D7 has a journey time of barely 30 mins so is a good candidate to extend to Canning Town. Links from Newham to the Isle of Dogs in particular is very poor, and if you remove the D8 it's non-existent. Due to the D7's frequency and that right turn from Bazely Street onto East India Dock Road, it's going to run into considerable traffic woes that shouldn't be explored. The D3 should instead be extended to Canning Town, to better serve Newham residents with Tower Hamlets and in particular the Isle of Dogs. If the 330 is extended to North Woolwich Road then there's the stand space available for the D3 at the bus station. Sorry I know I'm repeating myself but are they really that bad? As I said we have the frequent 115 to All Saints then you have the D6, D7 and D8. Add to that you have the DLR and Jubilee Line. I really don't see the sudden big demand for services to the Isle Of Dogs. I'm pretty sure people look at areas with routes close by and think I know let's extend that. I remember a crazy suggestion here about extending the 300 over the 323 to Mile End.
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Jun 23, 2021 17:48:37 GMT
Be it round the houses or not, the D7 has a journey time of barely 30 mins so is a good candidate to extend to Canning Town. Links from Newham to the Isle of Dogs in particular is very poor, and if you remove the D8 it's non-existent. Due to the D7's frequency and that right turn from Bazely Street onto East India Dock Road, it's going to run into considerable traffic woes that shouldn't be explored. The D3 should instead be extended to Canning Town, to better serve Newham residents with Tower Hamlets and in particular the Isle of Dogs. If the 330 is extended to North Woolwich Road then there's the stand space available for the D3 at the bus station. Sorry I know I'm repeating myself but are they really that bad? As I said we have the frequent 115 to All Saints then you have the D6, D7 and D8. Add to that you have the DLR and Jubilee Line. I really don't see the sudden big demand for services to the Isle Of Dogs. I'm pretty sure people look at areas with routes close by and think I know let's extend that. I remember a crazy suggestion here about extending the 300 over the 323 to Mile End. I think that the situation is getting worse more in recent times than historical times. The amount of people who get off a D7 or D8 and dangerously cross the road to the Bazely Street stop, only to completely overcrowd a very well loaded 115 is increasing rapidly. I know whenever I'm driving around that area to keep an extreme watch out for people crossing the road in a large crowd, which is almost always followed by a D8 then trying to make that impossibly hard turn towards the A12. I do feel sorry for anyone waiting for the 115 down East India Dock Road as most often the bus flies past without even hesitating due to the load its carrying already. The D7 or even the D3 as mentioned would be a good addition. I think a slightly glossed over fact is that many people go to the shopping centres at Canary Wharf and its a lot closer in the grand scheme than Westfield is to the area despite having a similar quality of shops such as Zara, Waitrose etc. It's almost like East London and South London both have a barrier which minimal routes must cross, down South you have to really hunt for a route going from the SE to the SW, while in the East you'd be hard pressed to find a route from somewhere like Plaistow, Manor Park, Ilford or Barking going any further West than Stratford or Canning Town.
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Post by vjaska on Jun 23, 2021 18:45:18 GMT
Whilst I agree that the 353 should never of been diverted into Forestdale, terminating it at Hayes (or even at Coney Hall) would surely be the end of the route? Not a great advert for public transport that would be and a home run for car usage. Surely, it would be better to restructure the route, maybe explore a new link for it east of Hayes like diverting it to Shrublands via Glebe Way & West Wickham and increase it back to 15 minutes - the cut to 20 has surely put off many regulars anywhere as people vote with their feet. If the chopping of the route funded an extra bus on the 433 so it could double run Courtwood Lane, thereby probably increasing passenger numbers, is that not a positive thing? You don’t need to chop one whole route to fund the double run for the 433 which I’ve said in the past is a good suggestion. So many cuts are being made that it wouldn’t be difficult to fund a bus from those instead. As I said, TfL should not be setting up increases in car usage as once a route goes, it’s difficult for it to return as we’ve from countless examples in the past.
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Post by WH241 on Jun 23, 2021 19:10:08 GMT
Sorry I know I'm repeating myself but are they really that bad? As I said we have the frequent 115 to All Saints then you have the D6, D7 and D8. Add to that you have the DLR and Jubilee Line. I really don't see the sudden big demand for services to the Isle Of Dogs. I'm pretty sure people look at areas with routes close by and think I know let's extend that. I remember a crazy suggestion here about extending the 300 over the 323 to Mile End. I think that the situation is getting worse more in recent times than historical times. The amount of people who get off a D7 or D8 and dangerously cross the road to the Bazely Street stop, only to completely overcrowd a very well loaded 115 is increasing rapidly. I know whenever I'm driving around that area to keep an extreme watch out for people crossing the road in a large crowd, which is almost always followed by a D8 then trying to make that impossibly hard turn towards the A12. I do feel sorry for anyone waiting for the 115 down East India Dock Road as most often the bus flies past without even hesitating due to the load its carrying already. The D7 or even the D3 as mentioned would be a good addition. I think a slightly glossed over fact is that many people go to the shopping centres at Canary Wharf and its a lot closer in the grand scheme than Westfield is to the area despite having a similar quality of shops such as Zara, Waitrose etc. It's almost like East London and South London both have a barrier which minimal routes must cross, down South you have to really hunt for a route going from the SE to the SW, while in the East you'd be hard pressed to find a route from somewhere like Plaistow, Manor Park, Ilford or Barking going any further West than Stratford or Canning Town. I know it would break links but think the D8 would find it much easier to turn if it used Cotton Street instead.
I do agree about east London being link a mini island cut off the A13 don't help matters especially in the Canning Town and Plaistow areas as when any problems occur we are left with pretty much no buses. Perhaps a whole Newham review should have taken place instead of just the South Newham / Elizabeth Line changes! We last had a proper review in 1993.
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Post by greenboy on Jun 24, 2021 5:33:19 GMT
I think you're right, there's not much need for the 353 in its current form and even the reduced x 20 minutes headway is generous, shame as I remember it being quite well used when it went to Croydon. Either return it to Croydon instead of the 466 or cut it back to Hayes as you suggested. 357 was the busier route, virtually what the 433 is today. 353 was never frequent outside of peaks ... and tram takes care of it's Croydon traffic, so has no need to return to Croydon ... do not know how well use it is used at the Orpington end, but to me seems a waste of resources from the Croydon end. The 353 to Croydon would be instead of the 466,
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Post by SILENCED on Jun 24, 2021 9:00:17 GMT
357 was the busier route, virtually what the 433 is today. 353 was never frequent outside of peaks ... and tram takes care of it's Croydon traffic, so has no need to return to Croydon ... do not know how well use it is used at the Orpington end, but to me seems a waste of resources from the Croydon end. The 353 to Croydon would be instead of the 466, But surely the 466 to Croydon is better option than the 353?
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Post by DT 11 on Jun 24, 2021 9:14:54 GMT
The 353 to Croydon would be instead of the 466, But surely the 466 to Croydon is better option than the 353? Completely agree as it goes to Purley too. 353 May as well remain as it is cannot see any further cuts to that service to be honest. When the New Addington changes happened a few years ago putting Route 314 into Forestdale and Route 353 to New Addington would have probably been more sensible as Route 314 does go quite a long distance, doesn’t appear to be very reliable either whenever I do the 160 and queue up at Fiveways it’s not uncommon to see 2 or even 3 314s on William Barefoot Drive, even when it was a low frequency route. 314 to Eltham, Foots Cray Road is also another turn I see regular.
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Post by greenboy on Jun 24, 2021 9:24:55 GMT
The 353 to Croydon would be instead of the 466, But surely the 466 to Croydon is better option than the 353? Same route between Addington and Croydon, the 353 is less frequent but the current 466 is excessive.
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Post by greenboy on Jun 24, 2021 9:28:58 GMT
But surely the 466 to Croydon is better option than the 353? Completely agree as it goes to Purley too. 353 May as well remain as it is cannot see any further cuts to that service to be honest. When the New Addington changes happened a few years ago putting Route 314 into Forestdale and Route 353 to New Addington would have probably been more sensible as Route 314 does go quite a long distance, doesn’t appear to be very reliable either whenever I do the 160 and queue up at Fiveways it’s not uncommon to see 2 or even 3 314s on William Barefoot Drive, even when it was a low frequency route. 314 to Eltham, Foots Cray Road is also another turn I see regular. The 359 is quicker from Addington to Purley and the 314 to Forestdale would still be the same problem, people want to go to Selsdon and Croydon and not to Addington Village. The 314 could be split into two routes at Bromley, I doubt if there is much cross town traffic, but obviously stand space is the problem.
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Post by DT 11 on Jun 24, 2021 9:39:37 GMT
Completely agree as it goes to Purley too. 353 May as well remain as it is cannot see any further cuts to that service to be honest. When the New Addington changes happened a few years ago putting Route 314 into Forestdale and Route 353 to New Addington would have probably been more sensible as Route 314 does go quite a long distance, doesn’t appear to be very reliable either whenever I do the 160 and queue up at Fiveways it’s not uncommon to see 2 or even 3 314s on William Barefoot Drive, even when it was a low frequency route. 314 to Eltham, Foots Cray Road is also another turn I see regular. The 359 is quicker from Addington to Purley and the 314 to Forestdale would still be the same problem, people want to go to Selsdon and Croydon and not to Addington Village. The 314 could be split into two routes at Bromley, I doubt if there is much cross town traffic, but obviously stand space is the problem. Yes it is, I have used the 359 end to end before very handy link. however most people want to go to Croydon. I see, well I imagine most people walk down Courtwood Lane to get Route 433 rather than wait for Route 353. Would make sense to double run the route. However I can’t see that happening. No stand space anywhere at Bromley to split Route 314 in two.
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Post by SILENCED on Jun 24, 2021 10:28:03 GMT
The 359 is quicker from Addington to Purley and the 314 to Forestdale would still be the same problem, people want to go to Selsdon and Croydon and not to Addington Village. The 314 could be split into two routes at Bromley, I doubt if there is much cross town traffic, but obviously stand space is the problem. Yes it is, I have used the 359 end to end before very handy link. however most people want to go to Croydon. I see, well I imagine most people walk down Courtwood Lane to get Route 433 rather than wait for Route 353. Would make sense to double run the route. However I can’t see that happening. No stand space anywhere at Bromley to split Route 314 in two. My mum can no longer walk that far ... so using the bus is no longer an option. Post box is as far as I think she goes, yeah, she still sends letters, which means she can get to 353 bus stop but is of little interest to her.
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