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Post by redbus on Oct 23, 2020 19:04:39 GMT
But surely tfl are still making some revenue at the moment and could run a peak service with severe reductions to evenings and off peak times where services are naturally used less. I would assume there would be an equivalent of an administrator appointed ... if any services can currently run at a profit, which I imagine are negligible, at the moment, sure the they would be allowed to continue ... if you can find an operator willing to open a garage for so little return. Anything leased will probably not be able to be used, mainly thinking rail, and water based here. This really isn't going to happen, and if it did it would not last long. It is important to understand what this battle is all about and what it isn't. No one is suggesting that services should be withdrawn or reduced, there is a general recognition that London needs its public transport services. This is a political battle between the government and the Mayor. The government ask why they should be bailing out TfL to such an extent and argue the Mayor would have had more money available had fares risen year on year. Over the years it can be argued that the Mayor has been critical of the government and maybe there are scores to settle. The Mayor on the other hand says a bailout would have been needed regardless due to Covid. The government have given the Mayor a set on unpalatable demands quite deliberately perhaps in the hope of influencing the Mayoral election and probably to put him in a very uncomfortable spot. If he accepts any of the unpalatable options he will be blamed for them, whilst if he doesn't TfL may go bankrupt. In practise TfL would then be taken over by the government and they no doubt would blame the whole thing on the Mayor. Sure fares would rise, probably significantly, and the rises would be blamed on the Mayor. I am not sure what else they would do though, charging kids wouldn't really do much. Removing over 60s concessions I suppose is possible, but given many of the beneficiaries of the scheme might vote for a different Mayor at the election they could well be loath to upset this group. Also don't forget that it was our current Prime Minister who introduced that scheme, so is he really willing to sacrifice his own baby. Adding a charge to Council Tax is possible, but if the Mayor isn't willing to do this it will probably need a change in the law, so would take a while to implement, The expanded congestion charge scheme I cannot seeing happening that really would upset so many groups including many of those who support the government. Services I think for the foreseeable future will remain as is, particularly as every bus and train has such a reduced capacity. I suppose there maybe some changes at the edges such as evenings if everything has to close by 10:00 pm. Once Covid is over and it is seen what level of demand there is, all bets are off if demand remains significantly depressed. Nevertheless there's much respect everywhere for the view that you can't take a large axe to services as this would have some pretty bad consequences overall, and that view is quite likely to win the day. It's particularly on subjects like this I miss the words of our late friend snoggle , I wonder what he would have made of all this! Anyway it's time to do up your seatbelt, hold tight as we are all on the rollercoaster!!! |
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Post by rugbyref on Oct 23, 2020 19:28:23 GMT
We could sack the Mayor Against London, and donate his salary! Easier said than done - are you advocating a new mayor or the scrapping of the entire mayoral system? Ideally the latter, but in the short term the former. |
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Post by rugbyref on Oct 23, 2020 19:30:32 GMT
We could sack the Mayor Against London, and donate his salary! Wow, what a great suggestion. All of TfL's financial problems are now sorted - you did it! Such a brilliant and elegant solution from a keen political mind. And the 'Mayor Against London'... my goodness, such wit! If you think Khan is concerned more for Londoners than his own self engrandisment, then you are entitled to that opinion, but many would not share it. |
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Post by vjaska on Oct 23, 2020 19:51:55 GMT
Easier said than done - are you advocating a new mayor or the scrapping of the entire mayoral system? Ideally the latter, but in the short term the former. Thanks for sharing - I’m not a fan of Khan at all but equally I don’t see Bailey being better and judging from what I’ve heard him say on a range of issues, he is arguably worse so I don’t think the short term option would bring any benefit. The long term idea however is very tricky and one I’ve no opinion on. |
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Post by Frenzie on Oct 23, 2020 20:04:13 GMT
Well I guess your view is represented by the 50% who do not support the Labour Mayor. He’s done plenty that help out everyday Londoners so I’m not surprised that so many continue to support Khan. Has he though? What, in your opinion, is better about London now than it was 10 years ago? Surely the mayors job is to improve London for everyone not just ‘everyday’ Londoners. But that also brings the question of what is, in your definition, an everyday Londoner? The hopper fare and fares freeze are two things he’s introduced that have helped out a number of people and has made travel a bit more attractive. By everyday Londoners I mean those that aren’t bus/train enthusiasts or have links to the transit system. For people such as ourselves he certainly hasn’t been the best having overseen the damaging cuts to the bus network especially in the central area. Personally I wouldn’t want to vote for him but I see him as the least worst option and have no other choice. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2020 20:26:22 GMT
Has he though? What, in your opinion, is better about London now than it was 10 years ago? Surely the mayors job is to improve London for everyone not just ‘everyday’ Londoners. But that also brings the question of what is, in your definition, an everyday Londoner? The hopper fare and fares freeze are two things he’s introduced that have helped out a number of people and has made travel a bit more attractive. By everyday Londoners I mean those that aren’t bus/train enthusiasts or have links to the transit system. For people such as ourselves he certainly hasn’t been the best having overseen the damaging cuts to the bus network especially in the central area. Personally I wouldn’t want to vote for him but I see him as the least worst option and have no other choice. Whilst help to some the hopper fare and fare freeze have only worsened TfL’s finances in my opinion. It has cost money whilst not increasing passenger numbers, which 10 years ago it would have. Ultimately crime is worse, traffic is significantly worse across most of London and London is not the great city it was in the Olympic days but all the mayor does is blame central government for city halls problems. I am not discounting the COVID-19 crisis but it’s getting harder to explain to people who say TfL was going to be back in profit this year that it was at a cost of major cuts behind the scenes unless they think the northern line is meant to deafen passengers. I will not vote for Kahn because I don’t believe he has done anything to make life better in London. I don’t consider what central government has done in local and mayoral elections and I think people that do need to look at what your local council has done to support you within their powers. I only look at what the local leadership has done and I don’t believe Kahn has done enough to convince me he is worth keeping. |
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Post by ServerKing on Oct 23, 2020 20:26:31 GMT
Looking on the total black side I wonder what TFL would do if they refuse all conditions. In the Evening Standard today it explained that TfL do have a few weeks of money left... www.standard.co.uk/news/london/tfl-bailout-ccharge-row-sadiq-khan-westminster-a4572717.htmlIf it all goes belly up, the Government will run TfL. Any Congestion Charge extension won't happen until this time next year. They can trim the duplicated routes, get rid of cycle hire (quite a few end up vandalised and used for "trapping" / drugs )... lose the cycle lanes and let each Council manage trunk roads in their boroughs. TfL can deal with bus, tube and Overground. Things might actually improve  |
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Post by thelondonthing on Oct 23, 2020 20:31:36 GMT
Wow, what a great suggestion. All of TfL's financial problems are now sorted - you did it! Such a brilliant and elegant solution from a keen political mind. And the 'Mayor Against London'... my goodness, such wit! If you think Khan is concerned more for Londoners than his own self engrandisment, then you are entitled to that opinion, but many would not share it. I don't recall saying anything of the kind, and I certainly don't need to be reminded that I'm entitled to hold an opinion on this or any other matter. I was drawing attention to the worthlessness of proposing that the Mayor be sacked; in a functioning democracy, the Mayor is not simply discharged from office mid-term because some people dislike him (that's what periodic elections are for). And the suggestion that his salary should be 'donated' was equally vacuous; to whom should it be donated, and what effect do you think that would have on TfL's multi-billion pound budget? How would axing the Mayor's salary solve any of TfL's current financial difficulties? |
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Post by ServerKing on Oct 23, 2020 21:06:37 GMT
The hopper fare and fares freeze are two things he’s introduced that have helped out a number of people and has made travel a bit more attractive. By everyday Londoners I mean those that aren’t bus/train enthusiasts or have links to the transit system. For people such as ourselves he certainly hasn’t been the best having overseen the damaging cuts to the bus network especially in the central area. Personally I wouldn’t want to vote for him but I see him as the least worst option and have no other choice. Whilst help to some the hopper fare and fare freeze have only worsened TfL’s finances in my opinion. It has cost money whilst not increasing passenger numbers, which 10 years ago it would have. Ultimately crime is worse, traffic is significantly worse across most of London and London is not the great city it was in the Olympic days but all the mayor does is blame central government for city halls problems. I am not discounting the COVID-19 crisis but it’s getting harder to explain to people who say TfL was going to be back in profit this year that it was at a cost of major cuts behind the scenes unless they think the northern line is meant to deafen passengers. I will not vote for Kahn because I don’t believe he has done anything to make life better in London. I don’t consider what central government has done in local and mayoral elections and I think people that do need to look at what your local council has done to support you within their powers. I only look at what the local leadership has done and I don’t believe Kahn has done enough to convince me he is worth keeping. He's made the traffic worse in his own area with all these StreetSpace schemes, even in some areas affecting how fire engines respond to calls, where flower boxes and poncey street furniture has obstructed the road  every serious incident in London, he is nowhere to be seen first of all, late to denounce terrorism, or deal with the eco activists who caused mayhem last year. He fears he's a target, so insists on a £80k car to travel around in, if not more when used as an unmarked police car with police Detail... He could advertise the network more, rather than the current watch your Speed)... I remember TfL's "My Other Car is a Bus" ad campaign in 2006. Advertising has gone off a cliff edge with his fundamentalist views. Bringing in expensive talking shops and not having any serving police officer on the MOPC (Mayors Office for Policing and Crime) but highly paid administrators with no real clue. The Bus Driver's Son has thrown London under the bus... |
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Post by southlondonbus on Oct 23, 2020 21:38:47 GMT
Basically as far as buses are concerned TFL's big investment in the tube over the past 20 years has taken away demand. I know I often take the tube one the bus now due to speed and the ever increasing road schemes slowing buses down. Does the government see bailing out buses and their often high freqs to investing in video shops.
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Post by redbus on Oct 23, 2020 21:52:09 GMT
Basically as far as buses are concerned TFL's big investment in the tube over the past 20 years has taken away demand. I know I often take the tube one the bus now due to speed and the ever increasing road schemes slowing buses down. Does the government see bailing out buses and their often high freqs to investing in video shops. I think you are very much right about slow buses, regulating the service etc causing a drop in demand for buses. We need to re-engineer many of our roads so buses can get through at least as fast as they did 10 years ago. That alone will help drive demand for buses, and shorter journey times will mean fewer buses needed for a given frequency. More bus passengers = more fare income, fewer buses needed to provide the same frequency = lower costs, a double whammy to help reduce the bus subsidy. |
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Post by redbus on Oct 23, 2020 21:55:39 GMT
The hopper fare and fares freeze are two things he’s introduced that have helped out a number of people and has made travel a bit more attractive. By everyday Londoners I mean those that aren’t bus/train enthusiasts or have links to the transit system. For people such as ourselves he certainly hasn’t been the best having overseen the damaging cuts to the bus network especially in the central area. Personally I wouldn’t want to vote for him but I see him as the least worst option and have no other choice. Whilst help to some the hopper fare and fare freeze have only worsened TfL’s finances in my opinion. It has cost money whilst not increasing passenger numbers, which 10 years ago it would have. Ultimately crime is worse, traffic is significantly worse across most of London and London is not the great city it was in the Olympic days but all the mayor does is blame central government for city halls problems. I am not discounting the COVID-19 crisis but it’s getting harder to explain to people who say TfL was going to be back in profit this year that it was at a cost of major cuts behind the scenes unless they think the northern line is meant to deafen passengers. I will not vote for Kahn because I don’t believe he has done anything to make life better in London. I don’t consider what central government has done in local and mayoral elections and I think people that do need to look at what your local council has done to support you within their powers. I only look at what the local leadership has done and I don’t believe Kahn has done enough to convince me he is worth keeping. To be fair the hopper fare (sorry for the pun) has enabled TfL to cut many direct bus links as they can say there's no financial impact in changing buses. Undoubtedly TfL have made savings as a result of cutting bus links, however how that compares against the cost of the hopper fare I do not know. |
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Post by vjaska on Oct 23, 2020 22:47:55 GMT
Looking on the total black side I wonder what TFL would do if they refuse all conditions. In the Evening Standard today it explained that TfL do have a few weeks of money left... www.standard.co.uk/news/london/tfl-bailout-ccharge-row-sadiq-khan-westminster-a4572717.htmlIf it all goes belly up, the Government will run TfL. Any Congestion Charge extension won't happen until this time next year. They can trim the duplicated routes, get rid of cycle hire (quite a few end up vandalised and used for "trapping" / drugs )... lose the cycle lanes and let each Council manage trunk roads in their boroughs. TfL can deal with bus, tube and Overground. Things might actually improve Why are people obsessed with trimming routes - the network needs investing in not more cuts. The government will not remove cycle lanes or cycle hire when they are two things that both Boris & Khan support a lot. I for one do not trust this government to run TfL any better than Khan and I don't even like Khan's handling of TfL either |
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Post by joefrombow on Oct 24, 2020 2:06:09 GMT
i think you are right about some of those unpalatable options but I think we also have to face the harsh possibility that there will also be potentially very significant service cutbacks coming for buses - evening bus services; night buses; central London routes; twiddly estate routes with low patronage etc, I think the cutbacks are going to come whatever happens , as much as we all hate to see it pre covid there were lots of empty trains and buses running around at inflated frequencies but with the patronage down post covid and the money definitely down and not coming back anytime soon this has got alot worst , I think huge swathes of cuts are coming something that we have never seen before and it's unfortunately going to effect a lot of people on top of that fare rises and no more 60+ or free kids passes maybe half price fares for them instead but yes agreed say goodbye to alot of these routes and even major tube cuts . |
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Post by ServerKing on Oct 24, 2020 2:14:30 GMT
Basically as far as buses are concerned TFL's big investment in the tube over the past 20 years has taken away demand. I know I often take the tube one the bus now due to speed and the ever increasing road schemes slowing buses down. Does the government see bailing out buses and their often high freqs to investing in video shops. Yes, there has been investment in the Tube, but not wisely spent IMHO. Lots of relatively new Bombardier stock starting to look very grubby and tatty in a few years due to no train washes or deep cleaning. Case in point - take a ride on the Victoria line 2009 stock (try this on an empty stomach as you may feel nauseous examining the filthy seat moquette), yet we are told about how the trains are cleaned daily. Sit on the Sub Surface stock, wonderful things, but seat covering threadbare in places (thankfully black colour hides more dirt on S7 stock  ), again, filthy trains, yet buses are made to be washed, repainted etc... it's like buying a pair of Hugo Boss trousers and wearing them constantly without them ever seeing a dry cleaner or washing machine. Again, very little advertising going on here, lots of messages telling us what not to do (slow down, mind the gap, Never Run Out as it seems TfL want to slowly ditch Oyster and make people pay for more expensive Contactless travel)... Is it me, or does Journey Planner sometimes pick the most expensive, indirect route? I wanted to know the best route to Willesden Magistrates from Wood Green, and was advised to pick a route involving two tubes and a couple of buses going into central London and back out, but no mention of the 232 and an easy 10 minute walk from Neasden? The emphasis is on more people abandoning public transport and walking, hence 20, and even 15 zones in the City of London. Very few parking spaces in the City when I used to have to drive in for work. The centre of London will die soon, it seems every day is like New Year's day traffic wise as Bank Junction is virtually empty after the ban on cars, the confused messages of working from home, then no, return to the office is putting people off... More Santander bikes are on every housing estate being used as free travel by "the mandem" trapping or selling drugs, than in the bike stands in town. And would you cycle in Central London these days?  Every Journey Matters? I'm not so sure it does. Perhaps they should use Iceland's strapline from a few years ago "We're Full Of Surprises" such as finding a clean seat moquette on the Tube or a bus route that still is practical and not mutilated like the 23 to Nowhere Special, or cut like the 48. Re number the routes, too many gaps. We might be getting a 456 (W10) next year, but so many gaps in numbers. No one cares for historical bus route numbers "because they have always been" such as the W3 but no W2 for years, or W1. Money could be raised to bring back Ealing's E4 to fill the gap in sequence... Can't sleep, so had a midnight rant, sorry   |
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every serious incident in London, he is nowhere to be seen first of all, late to denounce terrorism, or deal with the eco activists who caused mayhem last year. He fears he's a target, so insists on a £80k car to travel around in, if not more when used as an unmarked police car with police Detail...
), again, filthy trains, yet buses are made to be washed, repainted etc... it's like buying a pair of Hugo Boss trousers and wearing them constantly without them ever seeing a dry cleaner or washing machine. 
