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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2021 16:04:21 GMT
That’s such a narrow minded view to take, so people shouldn’t take jobs if they can’t afford the travel? Not only narrow minded but offensive to myself and so many and I don't even take public transport to work. It's an elitist view I'd expect from a Tory, not from someone who once lived in Croydon which contains many such people struggling to afford an acceptable living through many reasons, usually not of their own making although I suspect someone will come along and argue it's that their fault  It’s pure toffy nosed snobbery if you ask me. |
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Post by DT 11 on Mar 11, 2021 16:10:08 GMT
Not everyone can afford the luxury of expensive rail fares. If someone lives in Redhill and works in Croydon, or vice versa, they currently pay £3 a day on bus fares via the 405. If they work 5 days per week they are currently paying £15 per week. If you scrap the 405 so that it only runs as far as the Greater London border, say Coulsdon South Station as an example; they are then given no alternative but to fork out rail fares. They are then forced to pay £5.50 each way during the peak, £11 per day which is £55 per week! That’s using contactless. So £40 per week increase, that’s £160 extra per month on getting to and from work. Where is that money coming from? Rent or food.. Cross boundary routes are needed. So we end up subsidising Redhill residents. Travel is part of life ... if you can not afford it, you are in the wrong job, travel is part of the package, and if you do the same job 5 days a week, you have to be stupid to buy daily tickets. If you lived in those areas are relied on bus services you wouldn’t be saying that. If you cannot afford it you are in the wrong job is just harsh... suppose a individual likes what they do and does not wish to use trains. Then you have the audacity to make posts saying “those who don’t work in the industry have no knowledge”. I don’t think that is the case... you are just narrow minded and talk from armchair perspective and don’t really look at the bigger picture. There are plenty of members on this group who post good information who don’t work in the industry. Most regular bus passengers pay for Travel Cards on their oyster and know they are saving money by not paying £1.55 per journey... |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2021 16:18:10 GMT
I know it's already been said but people in the outer zones have to pay more to TfL generally and equally on the GLA tax, yet you seem want them to have a worse service to neighbouring places they need to get to. How is that fair? TfL should definitely not see the Greater London boundary as a barrier but rather seek to be providing a service up to the next town beyond. But the reality is they have scaled back their own services to the border since thhe beginning of the century, and got rid of local service agreements/made them too unattractive. So you now have entirely unbalanced situations like five separate TfL routes between Barnet and Whetstone vs none between Barnet and Potters Bar. Plus the situation of places within London not being served by a London bus (eg Hadley Green), so people travelling to their local tube station can't use capping or season tickets. While cutting them isn't ideal, they all run out of TfL territory into other counties of which these people do not pay anything towards the GLA. Why exactly should these people then as a result get to use services funded by it? Why exactly should a route like the 262 gets cut within the London boundary due to financial issues when someone out in Hertfordshire gets a bus route that runs at a loss and is funded by GLA taxes. I think routes should be carefully picked here, routes that have more benefit to Londoners should remain and routes that don't should be cut. Really don't see the need for the 292 and 107 to both go to Borehamwood when only one will probably suffice, while obviously the 96, 492, 428, 370 and 372 all run out to huge out of town shopping centres which are extremely useful to Londoners. Honestly don't see why people outside the London boundary should be benefiting from our GLA tax money when they don't pay towards anything and the services within the London boundary are suffering issues in themselves. You can't even get from St Paul's to Oxford Circus in a bus at the moment so why exactly services to Dorking and Borehamwood are being looked after I do not know. I am one of “these people” who pay fares to TfL and work in London yet live in Kent. My local routes are the 96,428 & 492. What you need to understand is how many people are priced out of London , through no fault of their own, yet provide critical work in London. It is these people who will be using TfL buses in and out of the GLA area. Not many towns surrounding London are particularly prosperous. I agree, if cuts need to be made then fine. But the flip side, is are you happy paying higher taxes for buses to run empty on a high frequency London route ? Many of the outside zone routes have held their passenger numbers , it is Central London routes which have lost passengers more so. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2021 16:27:13 GMT
Because they are a sensible distance outside of the Greater London border for TFL buses to leave Bexley Borough to serve Dartford/Darent Valley Hospital/Bluewater for example. They are neighbouring towns or facilities to Greater London towns. Many people in Gravesend, Medway, Maidstone, Tonbridge etc may work in Greater London, but they are further away.. OK so why should someone working in Redhill benefit from a TfL service when those working in Reigate or Godstone don't. There is no justification. Then there is Dorking! Well, part of this is explained by what routes TfL took over when London Country fell apart. The 405 provides a critical route through South Croydon, Purley, Coulsdon. It makes no sense to terminate the route where the 463 terminates. There is a huge college in Redhill where many Croydon residents go to. There will be people working at Gatwick who probably take advantage of a cheaper route to the airport via the 405 to Redhill and then a couple of stops in the train. Reigate didn’t get a TfL service. Metrobus took over the 420/460 and it remained commercial. These routes only entered Sutton. A link already was provided between the border in Banstead and Sutton by the S1. Dorking...I agree the 465 is interesting but it is SCC funded and certainly North Leatherhead is far from prosperous and needs a link with Kingston. I think you would be losing out massively in not having these services. London would become a very boring place to be a bus enthusiast, and the money people are banging on about is neglible. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2021 16:30:50 GMT
Because people from towns in Croydon Borough (such as Croydon it’s self, Purley and Coulsdon) are more likely to need to cross the border into Surrey to get to Redhill than for Reigate. It has a bigger town centre for example. Godstone isn’t served by a London bus because Caterham is the logical end point of the 407, it’s just over the border and is a town with a population of 21,000. Godstone is further into Surrey and is a country village with a population of just shy of 6,000. Dorking is the omission to the rule being so deep into Surrey. If it wasn’t for SCC putting their hands in their pockets the 465 would have just left Kingston Borough and dipped into Leatherhead. lThose 3 places are all linked to Redhill via public transport via rail ... so the ability to travel is there without the 405 I would also dispute that Redhill has a bigger town centre than Reigate, the latter has a bigger population if that is how you are defining criteria. Redhill is quite different from Reigate. I don’t know if you’ve been to either ... I think not , because if you had wouldn’t be saying that. |
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Post by SILENCED on Mar 11, 2021 16:47:41 GMT
Those 3 places are all linked to Redhill via public transport via rail ... so the ability to travel is there without the 405 I would also dispute that Redhill has a bigger town centre than Reigate, the latter has a bigger population if that is how you are defining criteria. Redhill is quite different from Reigate. I don’t know if you’ve been to either ... I think not , because if you had wouldn’t be saying that. I have been to both, very different as you say. Reigate more spread out, Redhill small but concentrated. Spent a good few nights in the Abbott in my younger days |
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Post by busman on Mar 11, 2021 16:58:34 GMT
That’s such a narrow minded view to take, so people shouldn’t take jobs if they can’t afford the travel? Not only narrow minded but offensive to myself and so many and I don't even take public transport to work. It's an elitist view I'd expect from a Tory, not from someone who once lived in Croydon which contains many such people struggling to afford an acceptable living through many reasons, usually not of their own making although I suspect someone will come along and argue it's that their fault You might be surprised, but many areas bordering London vote Tory and would vehemently fight any such cuts (the 492 for example). Not everyone who votes Tory is rich and elitist. With time I’m finding that Labour and Lib Dems also have a blinkered view. I think it comes down to money and education level. It’s easy to say cut this and that, without appreciating the impact it has on people’s lives. As others have said, the picture is complex. We also benefit from people coming to London to work and visit. I know key workers who have been gradually pushed to the outskirts of London over the past decade due to spiralling rents. I don’t get this attitude of creating a “London island” and simply expecting people to change jobs. I agree with you and others, it’s narrow minded and reeks of snobbery. Waiting 12 minutes for a bus instead of 8 minutes isn’t hardship compared to having your half hourly service removed completely. Also I don’t begrudge any resident of Redhill or Stone benefitting from TfL services. If the route works for Londoners then it should be open to all. |
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Post by SILENCED on Mar 11, 2021 17:03:36 GMT
So we end up subsidising Redhill residents. Travel is part of life ... if you can not afford it, you are in the wrong job, travel is part of the package, and if you do the same job 5 days a week, you have to be stupid to buy daily tickets. That’s such a narrow minded view to take, so people shouldn’t take jobs if they can’t afford the travel? When undertaking a job is not how you get there an important consideration? |
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Post by SILENCED on Mar 11, 2021 17:06:28 GMT
That’s such a narrow minded view to take, so people shouldn’t take jobs if they can’t afford the travel? Not only narrow minded but offensive to myself and so many and I don't even take public transport to work. It's an elitist view I'd expect from a Tory, not from someone who once lived in Croydon which contains many such people struggling to afford an acceptable living through many reasons, usually not of their own making although I suspect someone will come along and argue it's that their fault What do the people of Redhill do if they need to travel anywhere other than North on the A23, or do only the elite of Redhill consider these journies? Are Metrobus journies that bad of an option? I did not think they were too bad, maybe you think differently? |
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Post by LondonNorthern on Mar 11, 2021 17:08:10 GMT
Not only narrow minded but offensive to myself and so many and I don't even take public transport to work. It's an elitist view I'd expect from a Tory, not from someone who once lived in Croydon which contains many such people struggling to afford an acceptable living through many reasons, usually not of their own making although I suspect someone will come along and argue it's that their fault What do the people of Redhill do if they need to travel anywhere other than North on the A23, or do only the elite of Redhill consider these journies? Are Metrobus journies that bad of an option? How on earth does you taking a bus make you elite? |
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Post by SILENCED on Mar 11, 2021 17:10:25 GMT
What do the people of Redhill do if they need to travel anywhere other than North on the A23, or do only the elite of Redhill consider these journies? Are Metrobus journies that bad of an option? How on earth does you taking a bus make you elite? Seemingly taking anything else other than a TfL bus makes you elitist. |
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Post by LondonNorthern on Mar 11, 2021 17:40:38 GMT
How on earth does you taking a bus make you elite? Seemingly taking anything else other than a TfL bus makes you elitist. I'm heavily confused - these people I doubt care where their bus is run - they choose to use it as it is there? |
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Post by danorak on Mar 11, 2021 17:59:41 GMT
This whole debate is absurd. The Mayor's transport duty under section 141 of the GLA Act 1999 states "The Mayor shall develop and implement policies for the promotion and encouragement of safe, integrated, efficient and economic transport facilities and services to, from and within Greater London" and "the transport facilities and services mentioned in subsection (1) above include facilities and services for pedestrians and are those required to meet the needs of persons living or working in, or visiting, Greater London". So even if the Mayor wanted to erect a hard border at Crayford, Londoners needing to get to Darent Valley Hospital or Bluewater as major traffic objectives cannot be ignored. I have no doubt that TfL would ditch services like the 405 if they weren't value for money. www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1999/29/section/141 |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2021 18:01:28 GMT
That’s such a narrow minded view to take, so people shouldn’t take jobs if they can’t afford the travel? When undertaking a job is not how you get there an important consideration? Yes, and they get there by bus. They don’t expect the route to be slashed and for Greater London to become surrounded by a barbed wire fence that doesn’t allow working class people from neighbouring Surrey or Kent towns in unless they can pay the much dearer rail fares do they? |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2021 18:30:41 GMT
When undertaking a job is not how you get there an important consideration? Yes, and they get there by bus. They don’t expect the route to be slashed and for Greater London to become surrounded by a barbed wire fence that doesn’t allow working class people from neighbouring Surrey or Kent towns in unless they can pay the much dearer rail fares do they? I don't want to get to caught up in this but as already pointed out some people in parts of London have to pay higher fares as a result of bus cuts where its not always possible to make to one hour transfer window. I think TfL needs to concentrate on greater London. Services crossing the boundaries are not equal again the east and north east suffers and has had cuts like the 167. |
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