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Post by wirewiper on Mar 11, 2021 18:48:58 GMT
Yes, and they get there by bus. They don’t expect the route to be slashed and for Greater London to become surrounded by a barbed wire fence that doesn’t allow working class people from neighbouring Surrey or Kent towns in unless they can pay the much dearer rail fares do they? I don't want to get to caught up in this but as already pointed out some people in parts of London have to pay higher fares as a result of bus cuts where its not always possible to make to one hour transfer window. I think TfL needs to concentrate on greater London. Services crossing the boundaries are not equal again the east and north east suffers and has had cuts like the 167. TfL does concentrate on Greater London but this includes routes which cross the border, most of which do so for good reason - sometimes it is historical (the route has always been a red bus route), sometimes it is TfL stepping in to replace a non-TfL route when the operator has deregistered it (e.g. the 405). As mentioned in reply #193 in this thread, Section 141 of the 1999 GLA Act places on the Mayor a duty to promote and encourage such services. What is driving current reductions on cross-boundary services is withdrawal of financial support by County Councils - Hertfordshire, Essex and Kent have all withdrawn funding for TfL bus services in recent years. The honourable exception here is Surrey, which continues to support TfL bus services as it considers that this represents "good value". |
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Mar 11, 2021 18:57:51 GMT
When undertaking a job is not how you get there an important consideration? Yes, and they get there by bus. They don’t expect the route to be slashed and for Greater London to become surrounded by a barbed wire fence that doesn’t allow working class people from neighbouring Surrey or Kent towns in unless they can pay the much dearer rail fares do they? Surely if a route is profitable enough a route would be picked up commercially? If it’s not profitable then why should Londoners subsidise such a service? I might be in the minority but I will happily say that I’d much rather a barbed fence around London and decent links within it. The cuts we are facing are becoming ridiculous while we will have routes running across the border than TfL is spending money on. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2021 18:59:30 GMT
Yes, and they get there by bus. They don’t expect the route to be slashed and for Greater London to become surrounded by a barbed wire fence that doesn’t allow working class people from neighbouring Surrey or Kent towns in unless they can pay the much dearer rail fares do they? I don't want to get to caught up in this but as already pointed out some people in parts of London have to pay higher fares as a result of bus cuts where its not always possible to make to one hour transfer window. I think TfL needs to concentrate on greater London. Services crossing the boundaries are not equal again the east and north east suffers and has had cuts like the 167. But cutting these routes affects people that live in the outer London Boroughs as much as it does their neighbours in the home counties. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2021 19:02:38 GMT
Yes, and they get there by bus. They don’t expect the route to be slashed and for Greater London to become surrounded by a barbed wire fence that doesn’t allow working class people from neighbouring Surrey or Kent towns in unless they can pay the much dearer rail fares do they? Surely if a route is profitable enough a route would be picked up commercially? If it’s not profitable then why should Londoners subsidise such a service? I might be in the minority but I will happily say that I’d much rather a barbed fence around London and decent links within it. The cuts we are facing are becoming ridiculous while we will have routes running across the border than TfL is spending money on. It’s easy to say that, if the cuts wouldn’t affect you personally. They would affect people’s lives greatly. |
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Post by LondonNorthern on Mar 11, 2021 19:07:51 GMT
Yes, and they get there by bus. They don’t expect the route to be slashed and for Greater London to become surrounded by a barbed wire fence that doesn’t allow working class people from neighbouring Surrey or Kent towns in unless they can pay the much dearer rail fares do they? Surely if a route is profitable enough a route would be picked up commercially? If it’s not profitable then why should Londoners subsidise such a service? I might be in the minority but I will happily say that I’d much rather a barbed fence around London and decent links within it. The cuts we are facing are becoming ridiculous while we will have routes running across the border than TfL is spending money on. Well London residents are still London residents and those on the outer boroughs still need to access places that will be important to them. I'd be one to say that if we had a Ken style approach to the bus network like we did in his later years, we would be in a far better place 13 years on. An example of this is the 333/415 introduction, where the 415 was purely introduced on bringing new local links not possible and the 333 diverted to bring new local links as well. If we had that sort of outlook on the network, it would make more money and be more profitable, whereby many could use the bus network not just to their high street but more for local links. I'd also throw the 452 in there. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2021 20:04:28 GMT
Surely if a route is profitable enough a route would be picked up commercially? If it’s not profitable then why should Londoners subsidise such a service? I might be in the minority but I will happily say that I’d much rather a barbed fence around London and decent links within it. The cuts we are facing are becoming ridiculous while we will have routes running across the border than TfL is spending money on. Well London residents are still London residents and those on the outer boroughs still need to access places that will be important to them. I'd be one to say that if we had a Ken style approach to the bus network like we did in his later years, we would be in a far better place 13 years on. An example of this is the 333/415 introduction, where the 415 was purely introduced on bringing new local links not possible and the 333 diverted to bring new local links as well. If we had that sort of outlook on the network, it would make more money and be more profitable, whereby many could use the bus network not just to their high street but more for local links. I'd also throw the 452 in there. Places like Redhill and Dartford are not London boroughs though. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2021 20:09:42 GMT
Surely if a route is profitable enough a route would be picked up commercially? If it’s not profitable then why should Londoners subsidise such a service? I might be in the minority but I will happily say that I’d much rather a barbed fence around London and decent links within it. The cuts we are facing are becoming ridiculous while we will have routes running across the border than TfL is spending money on. It’s easy to say that, if the cuts wouldn’t affect you personally. They would affect people’s lives greatly. But would they really be that affected? are these buses used that much? I doubt it very much. I think it's the fact they enjoy the cheap TfL fares. I bet people would soon transfer to commercial buses or trains if the bus services were cut.
Being a stuck record but we seriously need to get the buses in London sorted out and if it means cutting this outer London services so be it.
Sorry that's my views
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2021 20:16:35 GMT
It’s easy to say that, if the cuts wouldn’t affect you personally. They would affect people’s lives greatly. But would they really be that affected? are these buses used that much? I doubt it very much. I think it's the fact they enjoy the cheap TfL fares. I bet people would soon transfer to commercial buses or trains if the bus services were cut.
Being a stuck record but we seriously need to get the buses in London sorted out and if it means cutting this outer London services so be it.
Sorry that's my views
But outer areas don’t have access to the tube or high frequency train or bus services. Cutting services in outer areas would be a massive detriment to people who rely on bus services to get them to work or school. Personally I would rather TfL cut buses from central London and redistribute these buses back where they are needed and where they will be of greatest use. Is it important to support routes in central that may carry a handful of passengers between tube stations or is it better to support low income passengers on the fringes of London who may use the bus from their A point two or three miles to point B? |
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Post by LondonNorthern on Mar 11, 2021 20:57:45 GMT
Well London residents are still London residents and those on the outer boroughs still need to access places that will be important to them. I'd be one to say that if we had a Ken style approach to the bus network like we did in his later years, we would be in a far better place 13 years on. An example of this is the 333/415 introduction, where the 415 was purely introduced on bringing new local links not possible and the 333 diverted to bring new local links as well. If we had that sort of outlook on the network, it would make more money and be more profitable, whereby many could use the bus network not just to their high street but more for local links. I'd also throw the 452 in there. Places like Redhill and Dartford are not London boroughs though. These may however be places of significance to residents on the border and as long as councils subsedise them however if they do not fund them, then there should be more pressure on them and if they refuse to fund them then TFL can either fund them or reduce the service or completely withdraw them across the border. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2021 21:02:31 GMT
It’s easy to say that, if the cuts wouldn’t affect you personally. They would affect people’s lives greatly. But would they really be that affected? are these buses used that much? I doubt it very much. I think it's the fact they enjoy the cheap TfL fares. I bet people would soon transfer to commercial buses or trains if the bus services were cut.
Being a stuck record but we seriously need to get the buses in London sorted out and if it means cutting this outer London services so be it.
Sorry that's my views
So only Central London services matter basically. It’s a good job you’ve not been put in charge that’s all I can say. |
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Post by twobellstogo on Mar 11, 2021 21:26:28 GMT
It’s easy to say that, if the cuts wouldn’t affect you personally. They would affect people’s lives greatly. But would they really be that affected? are these buses used that much? I doubt it very much. I think it's the fact they enjoy the cheap TfL fares. I bet people would soon transfer to commercial buses or trains if the bus services were cut.
Being a stuck record but we seriously need to get the buses in London sorted out and if it means cutting this outer London services so be it. Sorry that's my views
They may be your views but I’m afraid they are blinkered. I have mentioned enough times about essential cross border links - Bexleyheath to the schools around the western edge of Dartford, and to Darent Valley Hospital. The numerous referrals to Epsom Hospital from Sutton borough in particular, but also Kingston around where the 406/418 go. Let’s remove all the TfL buses to Bluewater, and watch car traffic go even more through the roof than it already is. Leatherhead to Kingston on the 465 has a lot of school, hospital and shopping pax. Service to Londoners does not stop at the rather arbitrary Greater London border. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2021 21:32:09 GMT
But would they really be that affected? are these buses used that much? I doubt it very much. I think it's the fact they enjoy the cheap TfL fares. I bet people would soon transfer to commercial buses or trains if the bus services were cut.
Being a stuck record but we seriously need to get the buses in London sorted out and if it means cutting this outer London services so be it. Sorry that's my views
They may be your views but I’m afraid they are blinkered. I have mentioned enough times about essential cross border links - Bexleyheath to the schools around the western edge of Dartford, and to Darent Valley Hospital. The numerous referrals to Epsom Hospital from Sutton borough in particular, but also Kingston around where the 406/418 go. Let’s remove all the TfL buses to Bluewater, and watch car traffic go even more through the roof than it already is. Leatherhead to Kingston on the 465 has a lot of school, hospital and shopping pax. Service to Londoners does not stop at the rather arbitrary Greater London border. Exactly, it’s a man made border. It’s not the edge of a cliff. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2021 22:07:33 GMT
But would they really be that affected? are these buses used that much? I doubt it very much. I think it's the fact they enjoy the cheap TfL fares. I bet people would soon transfer to commercial buses or trains if the bus services were cut.
Being a stuck record but we seriously need to get the buses in London sorted out and if it means cutting this outer London services so be it.
Sorry that's my views
So only Central London services matter basically. It’s a good job you’ve not been put in charge that’s all I can say. Where did I say central London. Sadly it seems if you put a counter argument here it doesn't go down well. Sorry but TfL is broke the good days are over. The usual South bias strikes again. I wouldn't want to be in charge unlike some  |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2021 22:09:20 GMT
Yes, and they get there by bus. They don’t expect the route to be slashed and for Greater London to become surrounded by a barbed wire fence that doesn’t allow working class people from neighbouring Surrey or Kent towns in unless they can pay the much dearer rail fares do they? Surely if a route is profitable enough a route would be picked up commercially? If it’s not profitable then why should Londoners subsidise such a service? I might be in the minority but I will happily say that I’d much rather a barbed fence around London and decent links within it. The cuts we are facing are becoming ridiculous while we will have routes running across the border than TfL is spending money on. A barbed fence?! I think that's a bit extreme. Maybe we should propose to put buffers at the borders on the railways as well and not let Londoners out. |
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Post by LondonNorthern on Mar 11, 2021 22:16:00 GMT
It’s easy to say that, if the cuts wouldn’t affect you personally. They would affect people’s lives greatly. But would they really be that affected? are these buses used that much? I doubt it very much. I think it's the fact they enjoy the cheap TfL fares. I bet people would soon transfer to commercial buses or trains if the bus services were cut.
Being a stuck record but we seriously need to get the buses in London sorted out and if it means cutting this outer London services so be it.
Sorry that's my views
So with routes such as that of the 292 & 492 where commercial routes do duplicate them a fair bit on their sections outside of London (for the 292 Elstree & Borehamwood to Rossington) but it does not mean they are underused in any shape or form, would you suggest that a route such as the 279 that crosses the border for 0.4 miles is underused? If we were to get rid of all cross border services it can in some cases be awkward to residents who live in the GLA but due to the cutback would not be able to access their residence due to the terminus being awkwardly placed. As someone mentioned, an example of this would be the 233 (Though I have never used the service I shall go off of local knowledge), some routes do have places of demand such as Bluewater and Waltham Cross and Lakeside that are across the border and even then, there are small towns over the border that are of significance to those in London like Potters Bar. Could you clarify what services you would consider cutting? |
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