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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2021 19:29:51 GMT
If the changes do take place, it will be via the 148's current route. TfL doesn't want extra routes on Oxford Street - I don't think we've seen the last of more routes being removed from the street With the 139 being withdrawn. I forgot to specify that. No route has been confirmed as being withdrawn it is all speculation at the moment. |
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Post by southlondonbus on Apr 6, 2021 19:38:42 GMT
The rumours tend to be focusing more on cutbacks rather then full withdrawals.
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Post by ronnie on Apr 6, 2021 20:16:48 GMT
Or....if the 133 ends up cut back, that leaves a space at Liverpool Street Station. A 26 sized space. Divert the 15 at Aldwych to go to Waterloo and withdraw the 26 between Liverpool Street and Waterloo. Now excuse me while I go away and feel very sick indeed... That would make the 26 a very short route from Hackney to Liverpool Street! I know the takes a slightly different route but would both be needed to cover that section? Maybe merge with the 241 and get rid of the 388 Or alternatively do a 23 and create a weird a U-shaped route Is there any scientific rationale in merging the 26/241 and 67/388 to create some of these frankenstein-esque routes. So 26 can become this Liverpool Street custom house route through shoreditch / Hackney wick using 388’s current routing between mare street and Stratford international / Stratford etc; while 388 / 67 combined becomes Hackney wick (using 26 route between Hackney wick and mare street, then turning north and following the 277 till dalston junction, then 67’s routing |
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Post by danorak on Apr 6, 2021 20:18:30 GMT
I don't think that's as selfish as it sounds. The 15 is identical to the 11 after Bank/Monument, as a result I could very well see it completely truncated at St Paul's with passengers then told to use the 11 up until Trafalgar Square where the 15 would terminate anyway. By this point you might as well just send the 115 to St Paul's instead, it's a relatively short route so could quite easily take the extension, especially with Bank Junction now being bus only. TfL have a habit of ignoring poor people so they might just keep the 115 number, even if the 15 number is what's more recognised and give it a frequency increase so that too much capacity isn't lost down Commercial Road and you could save yourself a really large handful of buses. This would allow all links to be maintained, and allow easy change onto the 11 for people who wish to go further into Central London. I know it's a bummer with another route potentially being lost heading East, but I think the 15 beyond Mansion House wasn't that well used, it's not far off Aldwych anyway, and passengers going there also have the option of the 76 and 26 to Aldwych should they require it. I like the idea but think TfL could do a "13" and keep the 15 number for Historic /Tourism reasons and so too much upset is not caused. I agree, TfL (or rather its predecessor) does have form for that on the 15 - today's 15 via Tower is really the renumbered 23. The old 15 that ran via Bank became 15A in I think 1985, then gradually shrivelled away via the 15B. |
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Post by LondonNorthern on Apr 6, 2021 20:19:19 GMT
I think the 139 is probably one of the routes that would'nt be pulled, same with the 390.
I think all the other Oxford Street routes bar could very well be at risk due to the plans TFL had initially for Oxford Street. I would be sure the 139 & 390 would stay based on the initial plans.
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Post by southlondonbus on Apr 6, 2021 20:23:45 GMT
Iv always thought tfl probably wanted the 7, 98, 139 and 390 were the routes they wanted to keep but probably knew they wouldn't get away with sending them all down Wigmore Street so eventually settled on the 139 and 390 and the best two. Id say those four are probably very safe.
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Post by LondonNorthern on Apr 6, 2021 21:01:39 GMT
Iv always thought tfl probably wanted the 7, 98, 139 and 390 were the routes they wanted to keep but probably knew they wouldn't get away with sending them all down Wigmore Street so eventually settled on the 139 and 390 and the best two. Id say those four are probably very safe. I think the 7 is at risk but the other 3 make sense. I'd much rather the 94, 113 or 159 stay down Oxford Street. |
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Post by southlondonbus on Apr 6, 2021 21:06:21 GMT
The 113 would make little financial saving since its not much shorter to Marble arch then Oxford Circus and with the 45 and 414 needing stand space at Marble Arch I think it will remain as it is.
The 159 on the other hand could probably fit at Oxo and would free up desired space at Marble Arch.
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Post by capitalomnibus on Apr 6, 2021 21:07:47 GMT
The poor 388 just can't get settled into its new home. The paint can barely dry on the walls before it's moving house again. Because the 388 has been adjusted so many times in its 18 years of existence, it makes more sense to modify the less established route if the opportunity is there, so that the negative impact is as low as it can be (it would be easier for passengers to adapt to the change). The 388 is also only 6 miles in length which makes it ideal for an extension. I Presume it would run down Borough High Street, Great Dover Street and Old Kent Road, allowing for the 21 to be adjusted accordingly. On that basis, the 15 warrants an extension also as it is only 6 miles long. |
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Post by capitalomnibus on Apr 6, 2021 21:16:42 GMT
I think the probability of 53 returning to Whitehall is less than 0 frankly. Making a route more useful is not something which tfl will do I also find it quite senseless to see inner London (essentially the part outside the central congestion zone) getting penalised. A lot of areas in this ring have high levels of poverty and see high bus usage (don’t see my average joe / Jenny living in forest gate / Stepney for example with a low-paid job in the city starting at 6am and supporting a family of 6 using a £2k+ mountain bike in full Lycra in February for example; that person will use the 25!). Such minor pedantics is lost however in the “walk or cycle” push The whole cycle and walk agenda seems to be TFL trying to save money - the Bank pedestrianisation only reveals this more. TFL are using pedestrianisation to make an excuse to hack certain routes back, for example I am very worried for the 133 north of London Bridge but also I'd worry for the 333
I'm saying as more of a personal dig at certain people not necessarily in power but more just some of the general public, and this is those people who have been pushing for the LTNs and the ridiculous cycle schemes but not also that, but vote Labour on the basis that they are heavily devoted to helping out the working class yet I don't see any of them trying to back the working class (the tradespeople, bus users) in helping them fight against them being delayed on buses, needing to take longer to go deliver parcels, or even just get around because of these ridiculous cycle schemes and LTNs. Notice how a lot of them are now hiding away now they've got what they wanted. A lot of these people supporting the schemes were also the sort of people clapping for the NHS (I very much stress this is only the people who were massively behind the LTNs) but now they don't seem to be fighting against these schemes that are delaying NHS workers from seeing patients and saving lives because of all the congestion that has built up due to lanes being removed.
It is very interesting to see how people's attitudes change once they have got what they wanted.
The days of Labour and a party for the working class are long gone. Anyone who believes any of the major political parties are out to help the working class are disillusioned imo. London is full of hypocrite nimby's who would moan about someone doing something yet they are doing the same themselves. ie rule breakers in covid etc. |
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Post by capitalomnibus on Apr 6, 2021 21:17:54 GMT
Because the 388 has been adjusted so many times in its 18 years of existence, it makes more sense to modify the less established route if the opportunity is there, so that the negative impact is as low as it can be (it would be easier for passengers to adapt to the change). The 388 is also only 6 miles in length which makes it ideal for an extension. I Presume it would run down Borough High Street, Great Dover Street and Old Kent Road, allowing for the 21 to be adjusted accordingly. The mileage distance means nothing when it comes to extensions or length. The trip cycle time is what matters. At 150 minutes on the 388, it's already approaching the upper end of what can be operated feasibly. That time is heavily over padded and at most could really just be 1 hour, the route is a scratchers paradise. Even before lockdown drivers had to kill so much time on that route. Unless there was some severe roadworks, you could leave the route near 10 late and still be on time before the end of the route. |
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Post by capitalomnibus on Apr 6, 2021 21:18:23 GMT
That’s fine and I’m not questioning the validity of the financial recovery plan but until there is a consultation or a formally published programme of reductions it is just rumour after rumour. Frankly it’s just getting boring trawling through page after page of I heard this and I heard that. Seriously, you’d have to be stupid not to realise that reductions are inevitable but rumours are just sooooooooooo boring. The sheer excitement here as soon as anything is leaked is like a child at Christmas. I do wonder sometimes if some of the leaks are wind ups to get reactions in places like this. One of the reasons why I sometimes do not bother saying anything on route changes or proposals until it has been given a change to create schedule etc as then it ends up with a million and one questions here and various fantasy bus proposals of what can and should be done. Some of the reductions have been happening over the past few months, with a lot of buses dropping pvr's or trips on schedule changes. |
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Post by capitalomnibus on Apr 6, 2021 21:21:37 GMT
Whilst I can understand Central London facing some sort of cut, Inner London should not be hit so hard. It’s great Outer London is getting some investment but it backwards thinking to do it at the expense of Inner London routes I think it the direct effect of policies of City Corporation and Westminster Council, along with TfLs cycle superhighway team. Over the last 30 years they have blocked off side turnings along loads of bus routes, this has forced other vehicles onto the bus routes slowing them down and making the bus service unattractive. Using a personal example when I first commuted into Liverpool Street in late 1980s, some staff took bus to Fleet Street, 10 mins peak, 5 mins back in mid evening after couple of drinks at pub. Similarly some doing it by bus in just over 10 mins from Waterloo. When I tried it about 2 years ago (pre Lockdown) took more like 20 minutes. Now just too slow. Add to that the capacity of tube has increased (it was still 59 and 62 tube stock then, manually driven, and with guards) and it shows the alternative (tube) has moved on, whilst bus has deteriorated. So now buses in Central London carry too much fresh air. Why subsidise moving fresh air when they are passengers to move elsewhere. Well it is no surprise. I rememember 20 years ago, in the am and pm peak, many people getting buses like 149, 48, 35 from Bishopsgate to London Bridge. Buses used to get filled right up then depart running around 4 stops without stopping. The traffic was not bad as there was plenty of side streets opened etc. Now the majority of people end up walking as it takes longer. the journey times also given have increased from around 5-7 minutes to near 20 minutes now. |
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Post by capitalomnibus on Apr 6, 2021 21:25:21 GMT
I think the 21 could end up being in the firing line, a rerouting of the 388 to OKR via London Bridge will end up covering the section the 21 uses. The 453 could be rerouted to Lewisham should it be cut back to Oxford Circus and other routes from Central London could cover the section through Hoxton to Newington Green. I think one thing is for certain among all the reports and that is London Bridge is certainly being investigated. A lot of the rumours/reports are centering around that area. I was wondering along similar lines to busman about the 388 change possibly being tied into the 78 rather than the 21. There's a domino effect here - if you lose the 21 north of Bricklayers Arms and increase the 141 slightly in compensation for that and a shortened 43, it might also allow a reduction in the 29. It's going to be fascinating (and quite probably infuriating) to see what TfL come up with. The 59/168 idea mentioned above by twobellstogo is not one I'd heard. I cannot see anything happening to the 78 now, just had a pvr cut, maybe at next contract change. There is nothing planned for the 141 and I cannot see the 29 being reduced any further as buses were leaving people at stops even with perfect headways after the frequency cut a few years ago. |
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Post by capitalomnibus on Apr 6, 2021 21:25:56 GMT
Given the restructuring of Aldwych I can sense a possibility of routes getting altered through the area (esp the aldwych - Trafalgar Square corridor). Tfl have long had the “vision” of having just 1 - 2 cross aldwych routes from the east. The 15 may get hacked back to aldwych; the 23 disappeared sometime back so one of 11/26 is under threat in one form or the other - maybe the 26 gets sent to Victoria (given it already shadows the 11 from Liverpool Street to aldwych) with a frequency boost: 388/241 gets merged or the 388 gets sent to OKR; new 311 gets introduced from Fulham Broadway to Oxford Circus / Whitehall / Piccadilly Circus / conduit street (take your pick); 6 gets punted back to Trafalgar Square and so on. The catch will be that there isn’t then any link left between most parts of the city and Waterloo (apart from the 76) but hopper / W&C line then will be touted as best fit The 15 can't leave Trafalgar Square, it has historical reasons aswell 11 has a history. Towards Waterloo however, a 341 cut back to Aldwych could be possible. Don't think they are even bothered, many long standing routes with history has been cut, chopped or changed over the years. The 15 imo is a joke compared to the route it once was. |
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