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Post by danorak on Apr 6, 2021 21:28:04 GMT
The 113 would make little financial saving since its not much shorter to Marble arch then Oxford Circus and with the 45 and 414 needing stand space at Marble Arch I think it will remain as it is. The 159 on the other hand could probably fit at Oxo and would free up desired space at Marble Arch. I could certainly see the 159 coming out of Oxford Street, with possibly even the shock of a very minor frequency increase to offset the rumoured loss of the 3 north of Kennington, cuts on the 453 and my entirely speculative musing around the 133/333 being welded back together. If only sid was still here to tell us where all the empty buses are  |
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Post by danorak on Apr 6, 2021 21:31:58 GMT
I think it the direct effect of policies of City Corporation and Westminster Council, along with TfLs cycle superhighway team. Over the last 30 years they have blocked off side turnings along loads of bus routes, this has forced other vehicles onto the bus routes slowing them down and making the bus service unattractive. Using a personal example when I first commuted into Liverpool Street in late 1980s, some staff took bus to Fleet Street, 10 mins peak, 5 mins back in mid evening after couple of drinks at pub. Similarly some doing it by bus in just over 10 mins from Waterloo. When I tried it about 2 years ago (pre Lockdown) took more like 20 minutes. Now just too slow. Add to that the capacity of tube has increased (it was still 59 and 62 tube stock then, manually driven, and with guards) and it shows the alternative (tube) has moved on, whilst bus has deteriorated. So now buses in Central London carry too much fresh air. Why subsidise moving fresh air when they are passengers to move elsewhere. Well it is no surprise. I rememember 20 years ago, in the am and pm peak, many people getting buses like 149, 48, 35 from Bishopsgate to London Bridge. Buses used to get filled right up then depart running around 4 stops without stopping. The traffic was not bad as there was plenty of side streets opened etc. Now the majority of people end up walking as it takes longer. the journey times also given have increased from around 5-7 minutes to near 20 minutes now. I've mentioned before that I used to hop on an RM to go from Aldwych to Charing Cross or Piccadilly Circus in the 90s. Now I wouldn't even consider bussing it, way too much congestion. |
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Post by vjaska on Apr 6, 2021 21:35:53 GMT
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Post by VMH2537 on Apr 6, 2021 21:39:13 GMT
The 113 would make little financial saving since its not much shorter to Marble arch then Oxford Circus and with the 45 and 414 needing stand space at Marble Arch I think it will remain as it is. The 159 on the other hand could probably fit at Oxo and would free up desired space at Marble Arch. Could the 137 cut away from Marble Arch? |
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Post by southlondonbus on Apr 6, 2021 21:41:53 GMT
Good read. Thanks for sharing.
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Post by LondonNorthern on Apr 6, 2021 21:49:00 GMT
The 113 would make little financial saving since its not much shorter to Marble arch then Oxford Circus and with the 45 and 414 needing stand space at Marble Arch I think it will remain as it is. The 159 on the other hand could probably fit at Oxo and would free up desired space at Marble Arch. I could certainly see the 159 coming out of Oxford Street, with possibly even the shock of a very minor frequency increase to offset the rumoured loss of the 3 north of Kennington, cuts on the 453 and my entirely speculative musing around the 133/333 being welded back together. If only sid was still here to tell us where all the empty buses are What happened to sid I remembered him from a few years back |
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Post by capitalomnibus on Apr 6, 2021 22:15:39 GMT
Not at all surprised. Said it many of times, TfL have made UBER the next alternative to the bus, and not the bicycle; that cannot even see that. |
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Post by ADH45258 on Apr 6, 2021 22:18:00 GMT
Alternative suggestion for the 148, plus other central London ideas:
148 - Restructure to operate between Queens Park Station and Old Kent Road Tesco, via the 36 to Marble Arch, existing route to Elephant & Castle, then the 168. Maintaining useful links around central London. Also covers links/capacity from Old Kent Road towards Westminster if the 453 gets cut.
36 - Cut back to Marble Arch (or Lancaster Gate), to improve reliability.
168 - Rerouted at Elephant to Camberwell Green, or possibly onwards to North Dulwich, Herne Hill or Tulse Hill if able to operate reliably.
68/468 - Corridor restructured along with the 168 change. 68 cut back from Euston to Aldwych, Waterloo or Elephant, but extended south from West Norwood, such as to Thornton Heath. 468 to be cut back at the north end to improve reliability, e.g. to Camberwell Green or Tulse Hill. Frequencies adjusted if needed.
7 - Extend from Oxford Circus to Piccadilly Circus via the 94, re-introducing the link from Paddington to the West End.
94 - Re-routed to Holborn via the 98.
98 - Cut back to Marble Arch. Possible extension from Willesden to Wembley Park.
35/45 - Restructured, with the 35 cut back to Elephant & Castle, and the 45 extended to Shoreditch in place. Improves reliability on the 35, while making the shortened 45 more useful - also reduced capacity via London Bridge and Liverpool Street, while maintaining capacity towards Clapham Junction. Route numbers could swap here if it's preferable to keep the 35 to Shoreditch.
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Post by LondonNorthern on Apr 6, 2021 22:23:51 GMT
Not at all surprised. Said it many of times, TfL have made UBER the next alternative to the bus, and not the bicycle; that cannot even see that. This is what happens when you try to pander to your voters in such a way that it inconveniences everyone else. |
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Post by LondonNorthern on Apr 6, 2021 22:26:27 GMT
Alternative suggestion for the 148, plus other central London ideas: 148 - Restructure to operate between Queens Park Station and Old Kent Road Tesco, via the 36 to Marble Arch, existing route to Elephant & Castle, then the 168. Maintaining useful links around central London. Also covers links/capacity from Old Kent Road towards Westminster if the 453 gets cut. 36 - Cut back to Marble Arch (or Lancaster Gate), to improve reliability. 168 - Rerouted at Elephant to Camberwell Green, or possibly onwards to North Dulwich, Herne Hill or Tulse Hill if able to operate reliably. 68/468 - Corridor restructured along with the 168 change. 68 cut back from Euston to Aldwych, Waterloo or Elephant, but extended south from West Norwood, such as to Thornton Heath. 468 to be cut back at the north end to improve reliability, e.g. to Camberwell Green or Tulse Hill. Frequencies adjusted if needed. 7 - Extend from Oxford Circus to Piccadilly Circus via the 94, re-introducing the link from Paddington to the West End. 94 - Re-routed to Holborn via the 98. 98 - Cut back to Marble Arch. Possible extension from Willesden to Wembley Park. 35/45 - Restructured, with the 35 cut back to Elephant & Castle, and the 45 extended to Shoreditch in place. Improves reliability on the 35, while making the shortened 45 more useful - also reduced capacity via London Bridge and Liverpool Street, while maintaining capacity towards Clapham Junction. Route numbers could swap here if it's preferable to keep the 35 to Shoreditch. The 35/45 I don't get - the 45 wouldn't exactly offer anything new as the 133 technically does the link from Brixton Hill to that general sort of area whereas the 35 is more exclusive in its links from Clapham and that sort of area into London Bridge etc so would not support that. |
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Apr 6, 2021 22:36:20 GMT
Not at all surprised. Said it many of times, TfL have made UBER the next alternative to the bus, and not the bicycle; that cannot even see that. This is what happens when you try to pander to your voters in such a way that it inconveniences everyone else. Don't particularly think whether this is a pander to voters or just complete out of touch with reality. For some reason people up at TfL towers seem to be in a really closed mindset that the bike is the first alternative people think of when they want an alternative to a bus. Alright in fairness should the weather and time be right and a docking station is nearby it might be. But really the first thing most people do is look on their phone to see if the tube station is the right one to get them to work in the minimal time, and if not then the Uber or Ola app is what's opened. Even Citymapper gives you predicted private hire costs. The car literally comes to where you are and dumps you exactly where you need to be. Another thing is cycling is extremely weather dependent, all well and good having people cycling the two weeks in August where we get sunshine. But what about the 40 weeks of rain and cold weather. People won't want to ride a bike, they want somewhere warm and comfortable, even if it means paying a bit more as a result. Ever since Uber drivers were classed as employees there seem to be even more of them out on the road. They send out discounts all the time and Ola does the same thing. London is increasingly becoming a city where cars are becoming more prevalent. The Weavers Quarter development here in Barking which was going to replace Gascoigne Estate has had its plans ripped up for the forthcoming half and it was completely redesigned to allow for car parking spaces as there was a huge uproar over the lack of car parking space in a borough where over 60% of households have a car. This sort of thing should have never been allowed to happen. |
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Post by vjaska on Apr 7, 2021 0:28:00 GMT
Alternative suggestion for the 148, plus other central London ideas: 148 - Restructure to operate between Queens Park Station and Old Kent Road Tesco, via the 36 to Marble Arch, existing route to Elephant & Castle, then the 168. Maintaining useful links around central London. Also covers links/capacity from Old Kent Road towards Westminster if the 453 gets cut. 36 - Cut back to Marble Arch (or Lancaster Gate), to improve reliability. 168 - Rerouted at Elephant to Camberwell Green, or possibly onwards to North Dulwich, Herne Hill or Tulse Hill if able to operate reliably. 68/468 - Corridor restructured along with the 168 change. 68 cut back from Euston to Aldwych, Waterloo or Elephant, but extended south from West Norwood, such as to Thornton Heath. 468 to be cut back at the north end to improve reliability, e.g. to Camberwell Green or Tulse Hill. Frequencies adjusted if needed. 7 - Extend from Oxford Circus to Piccadilly Circus via the 94, re-introducing the link from Paddington to the West End. 94 - Re-routed to Holborn via the 98. 98 - Cut back to Marble Arch. Possible extension from Willesden to Wembley Park. 35/45 - Restructured, with the 35 cut back to Elephant & Castle, and the 45 extended to Shoreditch in place. Improves reliability on the 35, while making the shortened 45 more useful - also reduced capacity via London Bridge and Liverpool Street, while maintaining capacity towards Clapham Junction. Route numbers could swap here if it's preferable to keep the 35 to Shoreditch. The 468 isn't an unreliable route because the corridor it runs along isn't as traffic filled as others - there is no space at Camberwell Green for another route unless it's operated by either Abellio or Go-Ahead and stands in the garage itself which isn't practical for Arriva for obvious reasons. There is no room for the 68 to stand at Thornton Heath either so your whole idea is incredibly unworkable. The 35 doesn't need it's reliability improved, capacity can be reduced between the two places by simply cutting the frequency of the 35 instead as the 133 is already facing a temporary cut which easily could become permanent. |
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Post by southlondonbus on Apr 7, 2021 5:18:18 GMT
Alternative suggestion for the 148, plus other central London ideas: 148 - Restructure to operate between Queens Park Station and Old Kent Road Tesco, via the 36 to Marble Arch, existing route to Elephant & Castle, then the 168. Maintaining useful links around central London. Also covers links/capacity from Old Kent Road towards Westminster if the 453 gets cut. 36 - Cut back to Marble Arch (or Lancaster Gate), to improve reliability. 168 - Rerouted at Elephant to Camberwell Green, or possibly onwards to North Dulwich, Herne Hill or Tulse Hill if able to operate reliably. 68/468 - Corridor restructured along with the 168 change. 68 cut back from Euston to Aldwych, Waterloo or Elephant, but extended south from West Norwood, such as to Thornton Heath. 468 to be cut back at the north end to improve reliability, e.g. to Camberwell Green or Tulse Hill. Frequencies adjusted if needed. 7 - Extend from Oxford Circus to Piccadilly Circus via the 94, re-introducing the link from Paddington to the West End. 94 - Re-routed to Holborn via the 98. 98 - Cut back to Marble Arch. Possible extension from Willesden to Wembley Park. 35/45 - Restructured, with the 35 cut back to Elephant & Castle, and the 45 extended to Shoreditch in place. Improves reliability on the 35, while making the shortened 45 more useful - also reduced capacity via London Bridge and Liverpool Street, while maintaining capacity towards Clapham Junction. Route numbers could swap here if it's preferable to keep the 35 to Shoreditch. The 468 isn't an unreliable route because the corridor it runs along isn't as traffic filled as others - there is no space at Camberwell Green for another route unless it's operated by either Abellio or Go-Ahead and stands in the garage itself which isn't practical for Arriva for obvious reasons. There is no room for the 68 to stand at Thornton Heath either so your whole idea is incredibly unworkable. The 35 doesn't need it's reliability improved, capacity can be reduced between the two places by simply cutting the frequency of the 35 instead as the 133 is already facing a temporary cut which easily could become permanent. Thou there possibly would be the stand the 148 uses but that's not ideal for a route from the south as it would stop a bit short of the Camberwell Green Crossroads. If anything along the 68/168/468 I'd see it more likely for with the 168 to be left to the 68/388/253 and extension of the 27 to HH or the 168 diverted to Camberwell Green or even Herne Hill replacing the 68. |
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Post by wirewiper on Apr 7, 2021 9:24:51 GMT
This is what happens when you try to pander to your voters in such a way that it inconveniences everyone else. Don't particularly think whether this is a pander to voters or just complete out of touch with reality. For some reason people up at TfL towers seem to be in a really closed mindset that the bike is the first alternative people think of when they want an alternative to a bus. Alright in fairness should the weather and time be right and a docking station is nearby it might be. But really the first thing most people do is look on their phone to see if the tube station is the right one to get them to work in the minimal time, and if not then the Uber or Ola app is what's opened. Even Citymapper gives you predicted private hire costs. The car literally comes to where you are and dumps you exactly where you need to be. Another thing is cycling is extremely weather dependent, all well and good having people cycling the two weeks in August where we get sunshine. But what about the 40 weeks of rain and cold weather. People won't want to ride a bike, they want somewhere warm and comfortable, even if it means paying a bit more as a result. Ever since Uber drivers were classed as employees there seem to be even more of them out on the road. They send out discounts all the time and Ola does the same thing. London is increasingly becoming a city where cars are becoming more prevalent. The Weavers Quarter development here in Barking which was going to replace Gascoigne Estate has had its plans ripped up for the forthcoming half and it was completely redesigned to allow for car parking spaces as there was a huge uproar over the lack of car parking space in a borough where over 60% of households have a car. This sort of thing should have never been allowed to happen. Well, someone, somewhere, needs to do something - and quick. Or we sleepwalk into a car-led recovery in which the deaths caused by air pollution and inactive lifestyles will make Covid look like we were having a collective off-day. I don't care if people get on foot, buses, bikes, scooters, trams or trains, or even get the occasional taxi or uburp - but let's head off a car-led recovery before its is too late. The developers of Weavers Quarter should have held their ground and been backed up by the local council, the London Assembly and the Government. |
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Post by danorak on Apr 7, 2021 9:51:03 GMT
Don't particularly think whether this is a pander to voters or just complete out of touch with reality. For some reason people up at TfL towers seem to be in a really closed mindset that the bike is the first alternative people think of when they want an alternative to a bus. Alright in fairness should the weather and time be right and a docking station is nearby it might be. But really the first thing most people do is look on their phone to see if the tube station is the right one to get them to work in the minimal time, and if not then the Uber or Ola app is what's opened. Even Citymapper gives you predicted private hire costs. The car literally comes to where you are and dumps you exactly where you need to be. Another thing is cycling is extremely weather dependent, all well and good having people cycling the two weeks in August where we get sunshine. But what about the 40 weeks of rain and cold weather. People won't want to ride a bike, they want somewhere warm and comfortable, even if it means paying a bit more as a result. Ever since Uber drivers were classed as employees there seem to be even more of them out on the road. They send out discounts all the time and Ola does the same thing. London is increasingly becoming a city where cars are becoming more prevalent. The Weavers Quarter development here in Barking which was going to replace Gascoigne Estate has had its plans ripped up for the forthcoming half and it was completely redesigned to allow for car parking spaces as there was a huge uproar over the lack of car parking space in a borough where over 60% of households have a car. This sort of thing should have never been allowed to happen. Well, someone, somewhere, needs to do something - and quick. Or we sleepwalk into a car-led recovery in which the deaths caused by air pollution and inactive lifestyles will make Covid look like we were having a collective off-day. I don't care if people get on foot, buses, bikes, scooters, trams or trains, or even get the occasional taxi or uburp - but let's head off a car-led recovery before its is too late. The developers of Weavers Quarter should have held their ground and been backed up by the local council, the London Assembly and the Government. My concern is that buses are getting squeezed in the middle. In too many places, they now sit in the general congestion to allow a very small demographic to pedal past. "Omnibus" means 'for all'. Buses were once described as the 'workhorse' but if they are just going to be treated like every other form of motorised traffic, you might as well put the screens up and cart them off to the knacker's yard. |
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