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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2021 13:43:40 GMT
We’ve moved on from stickers on buses for route branding I hope. This has always been a problem with fleets needing to be flexible across routes. I have to laugh at how constant this myth keeps coming up - the recent scheme in Barkingside shows that actually you can keep buses on the correct route the majority of the time, strays were limited far more than people have even given credit for and the allocation wasn't 100% branded - 25% of each route's allocation was unbranded which also happens outside of London depending on the operator which leaves easily enough scope to keep the correct bus on each route most of the time. Even outside of London, buses stray off their branded routes yet it doesn't stop these operators from continuing to invest in branding. If you think branding is simply 'stickers on buses', then I don't know where you have been over the last 20 years  Numerous examples outside of London say otherwise The Barkingside scheme was pretty small and spread across two companies so can hardly compare it with a wider London scheme. I think the west London scheme was less successful with lots of odd workings! I'm sorry but I think it's daft comparing branding outside London. People here are in a rush and just want to know a bus will turn up on time! I honestly don't think a few words will make someone switch from a car. All this fancy stuff is just a waste of limited money. |
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Post by vjaska on Apr 7, 2021 13:51:08 GMT
I have to laugh at how constant this myth keeps coming up - the recent scheme in Barkingside shows that actually you can keep buses on the correct route the majority of the time, strays were limited far more than people have even given credit for and the allocation wasn't 100% branded - 25% of each route's allocation was unbranded which also happens outside of London depending on the operator which leaves easily enough scope to keep the correct bus on each route most of the time. Even outside of London, buses stray off their branded routes yet it doesn't stop these operators from continuing to invest in branding. If you think branding is simply 'stickers on buses', then I don't know where you have been over the last 20 years Numerous examples outside of London say otherwise The Barkingside scheme was pretty small and spread across two companies so can hardly compare it with a wider London scheme. I think the west London scheme was less successful with lots of odd workings! I'm sorry but I think it's daft comparing branding outside London. People here are in a rush and just want to know a bus will turn up on time! I honestly don't think a few words will make someone switch from a car. All this fancy stuff is just a waste of limited money. The West London was less successful in that regard but it shouldn't of been because they only had 25% of buses branded for that scheme - I also never spoke about a wider London scheme but about specific routes or local networks so the argument about it being under two operators doesn't matter. Even under two operators, it was across multiple garages. As to your second point, I specifically mention that first what should be done is the basics to hold onto your current audience - speed up journeys through priority schemes, maintain reliability and make sure information at stops and online is up to date and relevant. Once you get that under control as TfL mostly did pre 2014 and it really shouldn't take that long to do so, then you start looking at how you attract people from other modes and if you've retained your revenue stream, you won't have the limited funds they currently do and can actually employ an expert like Best Impressions rather than doing it in house. |
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Post by LondonNorthern on Apr 7, 2021 14:01:54 GMT
If there is a route like that of the 383 that goes down to somewhere like North Finchley and ends in Barnet while taking a convoluted routing passengers would know what route it takes and make a decision as to if they take the direct 263 or not.]
I think the 383 branding scheme is excellent. The H2/H3 could do well with branding as they use the same vehicles and no other route at W uses them.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2021 14:12:54 GMT
If there is a route like that of the 383 that goes down to somewhere like North Finchley and ends in Barnet while taking a convoluted routing passengers would know what route it takes and make a decision as to if they take the direct 263 or not.] I think the 383 branding scheme is excellent. The H2/H3 could do well with branding as they use the same vehicles and no other route at W uses them. What about passengers from outside the area that don't know the places mentioned on the branding? Regular passengers would know the routing so branding don't really apply to them. |
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Post by LondonNorthern on Apr 7, 2021 15:25:43 GMT
If there is a route like that of the 383 that goes down to somewhere like North Finchley and ends in Barnet while taking a convoluted routing passengers would know what route it takes and make a decision as to if they take the direct 263 or not.] I think the 383 branding scheme is excellent. The H2/H3 could do well with branding as they use the same vehicles and no other route at W uses them. It could be very good in attracting local residents that currently do not use public transport in terms of telling them where the bus goes and where of interest it goes. I think it could be a good idea, but others will disagree. |
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Post by vjaska on Apr 7, 2021 15:34:41 GMT
If there is a route like that of the 383 that goes down to somewhere like North Finchley and ends in Barnet while taking a convoluted routing passengers would know what route it takes and make a decision as to if they take the direct 263 or not.] I think the 383 branding scheme is excellent. The H2/H3 could do well with branding as they use the same vehicles and no other route at W uses them. What about passengers from outside the area that don't know the places mentioned on the branding? Regular passengers would know the routing so branding don't really apply to them. Branding is not simply limited to sticking the number and places the route serves on the bus. Even then, the 383 branding which is limited to route numbers and places served, was well received even by locals when it had it's official launch in Barnet. |
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Post by wirewiper on Apr 7, 2021 15:52:07 GMT
What about passengers from outside the area that don't know the places mentioned on the branding? Regular passengers would know the routing so branding don't really apply to them. Branding is not simply limited to sticking the number and places the route serves on the bus. Even then, the 383 branding which is limited to route numbers and places served, was well received even by locals when it had it's official launch in Barnet. As well as route branding, there can also be initiatives to raise awareness of buses and their features generally. TfL is so missing a trick with its electric buses, just imagine the impact of a sliver lightning bolt down the sides and the wording "A BRAND NEW ZERO-EMISSION ELECTRIC BUS FOR LONDON". I remember when TfL actually ran TV adverts showing people choosing to cycle or catch the bus instead of getting into the car - what happened to that ambition? |
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Post by capitalomnibus on Apr 7, 2021 15:59:41 GMT
This is what happens when you try to pander to your voters in such a way that it inconveniences everyone else. Don't particularly think whether this is a pander to voters or just complete out of touch with reality. For some reason people up at TfL towers seem to be in a really closed mindset that the bike is the first alternative people think of when they want an alternative to a bus. Alright in fairness should the weather and time be right and a docking station is nearby it might be. But really the first thing most people do is look on their phone to see if the tube station is the right one to get them to work in the minimal time, and if not then the Uber or Ola app is what's opened. Even Citymapper gives you predicted private hire costs. The car literally comes to where you are and dumps you exactly where you need to be. Another thing is cycling is extremely weather dependent, all well and good having people cycling the two weeks in August where we get sunshine. But what about the 40 weeks of rain and cold weather. People won't want to ride a bike, they want somewhere warm and comfortable, even if it means paying a bit more as a result. Ever since Uber drivers were classed as employees there seem to be even more of them out on the road. They send out discounts all the time and Ola does the same thing. London is increasingly becoming a city where cars are becoming more prevalent. The Weavers Quarter development here in Barking which was going to replace Gascoigne Estate has had its plans ripped up for the forthcoming half and it was completely redesigned to allow for car parking spaces as there was a huge uproar over the lack of car parking space in a borough where over 60% of households have a car. This sort of thing should have never been allowed to happen. Good, I am glad they redesigned it. All it does it make people park on other roads like what Waltham Forest, Hackney, Islington, Harringay did with their CPZ in areas with no parking problems. This then makes 'sell their space' or people find other illegal methods or cheats of ways of parking. Any other 'world class city' would never do this and it is no wonder we are starting to lag behind many other cities. Most of the housing being built imo is a joke and just over-priced cheap built cladding type flats, no proper houses. This is also creating a family-LESS future. It has also started to bring back mini ghetto's that were eliminated knocking down tower blocks and other housing of this type in the 80's and 90's |
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Post by capitalomnibus on Apr 7, 2021 16:02:55 GMT
Don't particularly think whether this is a pander to voters or just complete out of touch with reality. For some reason people up at TfL towers seem to be in a really closed mindset that the bike is the first alternative people think of when they want an alternative to a bus. Alright in fairness should the weather and time be right and a docking station is nearby it might be. But really the first thing most people do is look on their phone to see if the tube station is the right one to get them to work in the minimal time, and if not then the Uber or Ola app is what's opened. Even Citymapper gives you predicted private hire costs. The car literally comes to where you are and dumps you exactly where you need to be. Another thing is cycling is extremely weather dependent, all well and good having people cycling the two weeks in August where we get sunshine. But what about the 40 weeks of rain and cold weather. People won't want to ride a bike, they want somewhere warm and comfortable, even if it means paying a bit more as a result. Ever since Uber drivers were classed as employees there seem to be even more of them out on the road. They send out discounts all the time and Ola does the same thing. London is increasingly becoming a city where cars are becoming more prevalent. The Weavers Quarter development here in Barking which was going to replace Gascoigne Estate has had its plans ripped up for the forthcoming half and it was completely redesigned to allow for car parking spaces as there was a huge uproar over the lack of car parking space in a borough where over 60% of households have a car. This sort of thing should have never been allowed to happen. Well, someone, somewhere, needs to do something - and quick. Or we sleepwalk into a car-led recovery in which the deaths caused by air pollution and inactive lifestyles will make Covid look like we were having a collective off-day. I don't care if people get on foot, buses, bikes, scooters, trams or trains, or even get the occasional taxi or uburp - but let's head off a car-led recovery before its is too late. The developers of Weavers Quarter should have held their ground and been backed up by the local council, the London Assembly and the Government. car-lead recovery is another anti-car made up thing by the cyclist nutters. It is a joke, it is not as if people say oh we have had covid, now lets go buy a car and we would be on our merry way to the future. It is utter garbage. Even if cars were made of oxygen and run of mind power; people like yourself and other car hater would still have a way to try to put it down. End of the day, whether you like it or not the car is here to stay. |
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Post by capitalomnibus on Apr 7, 2021 16:10:27 GMT
Well, someone, somewhere, needs to do something - and quick. Or we sleepwalk into a car-led recovery in which the deaths caused by air pollution and inactive lifestyles will make Covid look like we were having a collective off-day. I don't care if people get on foot, buses, bikes, scooters, trams or trains, or even get the occasional taxi or uburp - but let's head off a car-led recovery before its is too late. The developers of Weavers Quarter should have held their ground and been backed up by the local council, the London Assembly and the Government. The local council did try to back them up, but the issue is if the people you are building houses for want the car park then what will you do? You're not going to build what you think is better but know what it's not what people want or you can just listen to the people. Otherwise you will just get a load of houses you might end up struggling to sell or rent out. East London apart from Tower Hamlets and Newham have very high routes of car usage, it's in the majority in Barking and Dagenham, Redbridge and Havering and it really reflects the poor transport options in the area, even Newham borders very close to the 50% mark. The houses in Barking Riverside are selling very well, and unsurprisingly the majority come with places for people to park their private vehicles. Just looking at Barking once again as it's where the development is located. Your options bus wise all focus on you getting to Barking Station, where you either have the extremely overcrowded District Line or the extremely overcrowded c2c, not to mention the station looks like a post apocalyptic zombie zone. The District Line is so slow it's ridiculous to a point you can drive to a lot of places faster while the c2c have trains skipping empty half the time while dangerous crowds start to build up on the platform. It's such a ridiculous state of affairs, people only put themselves through it because they have to and not because they are opting to. Look on BBC London news every morning and the A13 heading into Central London is always on there as being a standstill traffic jam with the sheer amount of people driving in towards Central London, it's the only road consistently mentioned again and again. The bus links in Barking aren't the best either, links heading West are poor. You have the 5 and 238 of which are both complete disaster zones for crowding. The 5 being in the top 15 most used routes in London while the 238 has one of the highest pax/mile in London. The 366 doesn't even need an introduction for its crowding. The 62, 287, 368 and EL3 all link to other suburbs so while people use them quite well, they're usually used as part of other journeys unless the end destination is Barking Town Centre. Then you have the EL2 which is just a crowd buster for the 5 while the 169 and EL1 are pretty much crowded solid any peak and are a fight to use. The EL1 at Ilford, even during the pandemic is a ridiculous sight, the removal of open boarding means we are now back to the days of where one bus can only leave the stop once the one behind turns up. Why would anyone voluntarily use bus routes which are in a state like this? But TfL aren't even interested in improving the network around here, ever since the EL2 was rerouted nothing meaningful was ever done, the renumbering of the 387 was more so a waste of resources than a meaningful change. Then let me not start about Dagenham, they don't even have the option of the c2c there as a District alternative, the only c2c station is Dagenham Dock at every 30 minutes while the District once again takes stupidly long to get into Central London, not to mention the frequency halves east of Barking. The buses there are very poor, living in Dagenham East you have the 103 taking you to Rainham of all places and direction and Romford the other as the town centre link. It runs every 12ish minutes when someone in a car won't need to wait on a lonely road for a bus to turn up. Even Dagenham Heathway where bus provision is relatively decent, the poor night bus links among other factors mean that pretty much every single house you walk past has a car parked outside it. When this is the state of the bus network and train network in just one borough in East London, can you blame people for wanting a car? You need to make public transport attractive for them instead of gentrifying the place up and hoping that they either move out so that they're not your problem or where you bully them out of owning a car and making life unnecessarily difficult for them just to further a political agenda. It's not as if people here own brand new BMWs or Mercedes, they just own a car because it's what they need to get around. The problem is that many bus services within the borough you mention are just mainly feeders to the train station or shopping centre, that is it. They do not offer that much genuine links without changing. Far too many outer routes were chopped up over the years and people just cannot be bothered to change 2-3 buses+ The routes that are long many just go all the way around the world before it takes you to where you want; simply because they want you to get the train. We would see further amounts of this when Crossrail starts. Last outpost routes that do not do this. i.e. 25, 86, 5, 66, 123 are busy for a reason as they simply don't go all the way around the world. |
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Apr 7, 2021 16:13:24 GMT
Don't particularly think whether this is a pander to voters or just complete out of touch with reality. For some reason people up at TfL towers seem to be in a really closed mindset that the bike is the first alternative people think of when they want an alternative to a bus. Alright in fairness should the weather and time be right and a docking station is nearby it might be. But really the first thing most people do is look on their phone to see if the tube station is the right one to get them to work in the minimal time, and if not then the Uber or Ola app is what's opened. Even Citymapper gives you predicted private hire costs. The car literally comes to where you are and dumps you exactly where you need to be. Another thing is cycling is extremely weather dependent, all well and good having people cycling the two weeks in August where we get sunshine. But what about the 40 weeks of rain and cold weather. People won't want to ride a bike, they want somewhere warm and comfortable, even if it means paying a bit more as a result. Ever since Uber drivers were classed as employees there seem to be even more of them out on the road. They send out discounts all the time and Ola does the same thing. London is increasingly becoming a city where cars are becoming more prevalent. The Weavers Quarter development here in Barking which was going to replace Gascoigne Estate has had its plans ripped up for the forthcoming half and it was completely redesigned to allow for car parking spaces as there was a huge uproar over the lack of car parking space in a borough where over 60% of households have a car. This sort of thing should have never been allowed to happen. Good, I am glad they redesigned it. All it does it make people park on other roads like what Waltham Forest, Hackney, Islington, Harringay did with their CPZ in areas with no parking problems. This then makes 'sell their space' or people find other illegal methods or cheats of ways of parking. Any other 'world class city' would never do this and it is no wonder we are starting to lag behind many other cities. Most of the housing being built imo is a joke and just over-priced cheap built cladding type flats, no proper houses. This is also creating a family-LESS future. It has also started to bring back mini ghetto's that were eliminated knocking down tower blocks and other housing of this type in the 80's and 90's I agree, the new housing seems to be ridiculously sized while looking more appealing from the outside. It's generally accepted among the residents in the area here that the reason Gascoigne and other estates in the area are being knocked down isn't because of poor buildings but more so due to how large the flats are, you can get as big as 5 roomed flats in the area. The development replacing it will probably be able to squeeze two flats into a similar space profile. It's quite funny as now all the families who live here need 3-4 bedroom houses and the council is having a huge problem trying to re-house everyone. Due to the conditions people are allowed to pick whether they move to the offered house and in many cases don't want to move too far out, but then there are also a lack of available adequately sized homes within the same area so the council is having the plans really affected. The aim was for the whole demolition process to reach the area by the 62 stand by the end of this year but I don't see it happening at all now due to the delays being faced by a problem the council in this area has created on its own. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2021 16:13:35 GMT
We’ve moved on from stickers on buses for route branding I hope. This has always been a problem with fleets needing to be flexible across routes. I have to laugh at how constant this myth keeps coming up - the recent scheme in Barkingside shows that actually you can keep buses on the correct route the majority of the time, strays were limited far more than people have even given credit for and the allocation wasn't 100% branded - 25% of each route's allocation was unbranded which also happens outside of London depending on the operator which leaves easily enough scope to keep the correct bus on each route most of the time. Even outside of London, buses stray off their branded routes yet it doesn't stop these operators from continuing to invest in branding. If you think branding is simply 'stickers on buses', then I don't know where you have been over the last 20 years Numerous examples outside of London say otherwise Your last point backs up what I think though. TfL use stickers and placards. Outside London it’s digital displays, prominent branded timetable displays. And the fact not all of the buses were route branded also supports the inability to guarantee strays not happening ! |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2021 16:17:14 GMT
We’ve moved on from stickers on buses for route branding I hope. This has always been a problem with fleets needing to be flexible across routes. TfL seem to inhibit themselves in this area. A digital display on the sides of buses that is linked with smart blinds, could provide the route branding and advertising. Advertisers could be tempted to pay more to be able to target specific audiences because they know the buses will be seen in certain areas, or where their target audiences differ. I would trial adapted buses capable of carrying bikes on a route like the 465, like they do in the USA. Look at where people visit, travel patterns are changing. The airports and business districts are quieter, but local outside attractions are getting busier. More buses to places like Chessington , Hampton Court, London Zoo. Routes with established trends including high levels end to end travel, lay on express journeys / sections or dedicated a full on express route like the X26/68/140/607. Look at outside London to see where a TfL route could link with a commercial network . Already here it could be argued, but how about my example of the 465 again, they could connect at Dorking with the 93 to Horsham , through ticketing.... 142 could connect with Arriva’s 724 to St Albans and beyond, or the 500 to Aylesbury. TfL sponsored routes linking from TFL rail stations in Maidenhead, Twyford, Reading, These don’t need to be TfL run, just sponsored , so one could buy a one day London travel card on bus from Marlow to Maidenhead , use TfL rail to London and back. And again, welcome cyclists onto buses with racks fitted I may be a bit harsh here, but if you've got a bike, why should you take up space on a bus when you could be riding it? Because you could take your bike to a destination on the bus and go for a leisurely bike ride. Unless you are fit enough to ride from Kingston to Dorking a, up and around Box Hill and cycle back to Kingston again. It’s not rocket science mate. |
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Post by vjaska on Apr 7, 2021 16:20:59 GMT
I have to laugh at how constant this myth keeps coming up - the recent scheme in Barkingside shows that actually you can keep buses on the correct route the majority of the time, strays were limited far more than people have even given credit for and the allocation wasn't 100% branded - 25% of each route's allocation was unbranded which also happens outside of London depending on the operator which leaves easily enough scope to keep the correct bus on each route most of the time. Even outside of London, buses stray off their branded routes yet it doesn't stop these operators from continuing to invest in branding. If you think branding is simply 'stickers on buses', then I don't know where you have been over the last 20 years Numerous examples outside of London say otherwise Your last point backs up what I think though. TfL use stickers and placards. Outside London it’s digital displays, prominent branded timetable displays. And the fact not all of the buses were route branded also supports the inability to guarantee strays not happening ! That's TfL doing it in house on the cheap though - had they of let Best Impressions (other companies are available) do it, you'd of got a better result and it wouldn't merely be 'stickers'. Strays will happen whether you have branded vehicles or not - as I already said, strays happen outside of London on branded examples in any event yet it doesn't stop them from investing in branding and the Barkingside scheme saw strays kept to a minimum despite 75% of each allocation being branded. Other places in UK do brand 75% of an allocation as well - there is no perfect world where you can keep every bus on every route it should be on because incidents and situations and the aim of the game is to minimise this as best as possible, it shouldn't be used as some sort of negative against branding at all. |
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Post by ilovelondonbuses on Apr 7, 2021 16:32:45 GMT
After route 148 is now confirmed to NOT being withdrawn and the supposed withdrawal of this route which has created immense discussion on the forum. I'm even more skeptical about the routes currently being rumoured to be rerouted or diverted. As some I have heard do not make logical sense at all. No doubt there will be probably a consultation of some kind based on Central London routes in the future but I think it won't be as drastic as some people think.
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Numerous examples outside of London say otherwise
