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Post by 700101 on Jan 16, 2021 22:55:00 GMT
Don't think you will get anywhere near a PVR reduction of 300 with just frequency reductiond Yes I agree. Sadly that's why tfl won't miss the opportunity to finally cut the 94 and 159 and make a saving in the Holborn/Waterloo area to help get to the 300 PVR cut. I also could see the 47 cut to Canada Water and Jamaica Road left to the 188 and 381 and LB to Shoreditch to the 35, 149, 388. Theres no stand space at Canada Water for the 47 you would have to remove a route out of the bus station & I can’t see any route being moved, also it’s well used during early mornings, maybe cut back to Liverpool Street and have N47 to Shoreditch. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2021 22:57:26 GMT
Let’s see what tfl come back with but am sure this forum will have better ideas than whatever tfl does A few “ideas” from my side: - 521: drops to every 8-10 min peaks, 10 min all day. No service post 9pm - 507: same as 521 but can have same ending time as now due to the residential component - X68, 414, 23: goodbye .... - 38: every alternate Hackney central short gets taken out. So you halve the shorts and re-distribute the rest of the service - 19: cut back to Piccadilly Circus and takes the 94’s stand - 94: cut back to Marble Arch - 11: cut back to Victoria, 311 introduced as per previous - 22: back to Piccadilly Circus - 2: cut back to Portman square - 74: Paddington basin - 36: cut back to Paddington along with a pvr reduction - 205: cut back to marylebone - 1: back to elephant and castle - 15: cut back to aldwych - 68 / 91: cut back to Holborn or aldwych or the old 171 stand - 168: frequency cut / cut back to Waterloo (341 stand) - 341: cut back to Holborn (well extended slightly) - 176: frequency cut? - 6 or 9: cut back to Trafalgar Square - frequency cuts on 29, 24, 134, 55, 390, 73, 4, 17 - 21 cut back to Moorgate finsbury square - 241/388: merged to form a custom house to ash grove route (“crossrail!!!”) - 159: back to Oxford Circus - 13: frequency reduction - 113: cut back to Baker Street Gonna post a few of my ideas tomorrow. They may mirror some changes being proposed.... I’m hoping they are slightly better than cut everything from Waterloo towards Holborn. |
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Post by LondonNorthern on Jan 16, 2021 23:02:36 GMT
The 414 is likely going to go, we all know that. Everything else seems really overkill however. I see frequency reductions in central London, not anything other than that rly. Don't think you will get anywhere near a PVR reduction of 300 with just frequency reductiond Then TFL can't then expect passengers to come back and I'd expect with a reduction of that much if routes were cut - then I can see surrounding round-the-houses routes dropping in patronage as well. |
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Post by ronnie on Jan 16, 2021 23:05:21 GMT
Don't think you will get anywhere near a PVR reduction of 300 with just frequency reductiond Yes I agree. Sadly that's why tfl won't miss the opportunity to finally cut the 94 and 159 and make a saving in the Holborn/Waterloo area to help get to the 300 PVR cut. I also could see the 47 cut to Canada Water and Jamaica Road left to the 188 and 381 and LB to Shoreditch to the 35, 149, 388. I think tfl will take a corridor approach. So if there are 4 routes down you will be left with say 2 and 2 others being chopped off - I forgot to add that 47 will also probably get cut back. I would actually merge the 1 + 47 to run Tottenham Court Road - Lewisham (1 till Surrey quays then 47 route till lewisham) and extend the 199 to London Bridge if needed. In fact tfl can call the merged route 47 so there’s no #1 route!!! - slight change from what I previously posted but I would slightly enhance 168’s frequency and get rid of the 68 - 453 / 12 can be hacked back to Oxford Circus (if 453 is being hacked back) or even Trafalgar Square - frequency reduction on 243 Don’t forget that aldwych will go 2-way soon. That will provide tfl an excuse to cut services temporarily which will then become permanent. Hence 15 to aldwych, one of 6/9 to Trafalgar Square, 188 to elephant, 68 gone, 91 to before aldwych might not be too far fetched - |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2021 23:15:30 GMT
Yes I agree. Sadly that's why tfl won't miss the opportunity to finally cut the 94 and 159 and make a saving in the Holborn/Waterloo area to help get to the 300 PVR cut. I also could see the 47 cut to Canada Water and Jamaica Road left to the 188 and 381 and LB to Shoreditch to the 35, 149, 388. I think tfl will take a corridor approach. So if there are 4 routes down you will be left with say 2 and 2 others being chopped off - I forgot to add that 47 will also probably get cut back. I would actually merge the 1 + 47 to run Tottenham Court Road - Lewisham (1 till Surrey quays then 47 route till lewisham) and extend the 199 to London Bridge if needed. In fact tfl can call the merged route 47 so there’s no #1 route!!! - slight change from what I previously posted but I would slightly enhance 168’s frequency and get rid of the 68 - 453 / 12 can be hacked back to Oxford Circus (if 453 is being hacked back) or even Trafalgar Square - frequency reduction on 243 Don’t forget that aldwych will go 2-way soon. That will provide tfl an excuse to cut services temporarily which will then become permanent. Hence 15 to aldwych, one of 6/9 to Trafalgar Square, 188 to elephant, 68 gone, 91 to before aldwych might not be too far fetched - I think TfL have to be smart with these cuts, they need to attract people to use the buses by creating better, smarter and more effective links. Hacking away links, particularly from the south would not help long term. Merging routes like the 1 and 47 seems great but you’d end up with a really long route that could go down in one bad evening and strand dozens of passengers. In my opinion TfL needs smaller routes with better town connections and existing routes to feed those. You only need to look to the Sutton/Croydon consultation to see where TfL can do this successfully. Yes tweaking a frequency to better match usage but removing entire routes in the initial stages would shoot buses dead, unless it’s the 414. Death to the 414. |
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Post by southlondonbus on Jan 16, 2021 23:55:38 GMT
I have taken all the Canada Water routes apart before like a jigsaw (1, 47, 188, 199 and 381) and tried to put them back together and remove a route. The best I came up with was the 180 remains the same, the 129 gets extended to TL, the 199 diverts via Brookmill Road and the 47 withdrawn. Ultimately that would leave Jamaica Road to just the 188 and 381, Evelyn Road to just the 188 and 199 and CW to Greenwich to just the 188.
Problems i can see is the 381 is not direct from CW to LB, and Pepys Estate would loose a link to Greenwich.
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Jan 17, 2021 0:04:29 GMT
I have taken all the Canada Water routes apart before like a jigsaw (1, 47, 188, 199 and 381) and tried to put them back together and remove a route. The best I came up with was the 180 remains the same, the 129 gets extended to TL, the 199 diverts via Brookmill Road and the 47 withdrawn. Ultimately that would leave Jamaica Road to just the 188 and 381, Evelyn Road to just the 188 and 199 and CW to Greenwich to just the 188. Problems i can see is the 381 is not direct from CW to LB, and Pepys Estate would loose a link to Greenwich. While you could probably use the hopper fare, I really doubt TfL would just completely cut off the corridor via Monument and Liverpool Street from Tooley Street. I think the best way to go around withdrawing a route in that area would be to remove the 199 completely and just divert the 188 through Pepy's Estate as was mentioned elsewhere in the thread. Pepy's Estate would maintain the link to Greenwich and Canada Water. I think removing the link from Pepy's Estate to Lewisham is the far lesser evil than removing the Tooley Street to Liverpool Street link. The other alternative is obviously to divert the 47 through the estate instead of the 199, which would maintain the Lewisham link but then sever the Greenwich link and I feel that people are more likely to want to go to Greenwich as it's closer rather than Lewisham. Although if people have a better idea of flows in the area they could probably comment on these changes. Assuming the 129 still gets sent to Lewisham as planned the Lewisham to Greenwich corridor shouldn't see a huge reduction in buses and there's probably enough routes from Lewisham to Catford to cope with the loss of the 199. |
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Post by SILENCED on Jan 17, 2021 0:19:28 GMT
I think tfl will take a corridor approach. So if there are 4 routes down you will be left with say 2 and 2 others being chopped off - I forgot to add that 47 will also probably get cut back. I would actually merge the 1 + 47 to run Tottenham Court Road - Lewisham (1 till Surrey quays then 47 route till lewisham) and extend the 199 to London Bridge if needed. In fact tfl can call the merged route 47 so there’s no #1 route!!! - slight change from what I previously posted but I would slightly enhance 168’s frequency and get rid of the 68 - 453 / 12 can be hacked back to Oxford Circus (if 453 is being hacked back) or even Trafalgar Square - frequency reduction on 243 Don’t forget that aldwych will go 2-way soon. That will provide tfl an excuse to cut services temporarily which will then become permanent. Hence 15 to aldwych, one of 6/9 to Trafalgar Square, 188 to elephant, 68 gone, 91 to before aldwych might not be too far fetched - I think TfL have to be smart with these cuts, they need to attract people to use the buses by creating better, smarter and more effective links. Hacking away links, particularly from the south would not help long term. Merging routes like the 1 and 47 seems great but you’d end up with a really long route that could go down in one bad evening and strand dozens of passengers. In my opinion TfL needs smaller routes with better town connections and existing routes to feed those. You only need to look to the Sutton/Croydon consultation to see where TfL can do this successfully. Yes tweaking a frequency to better match usage but removing entire routes in the initial stages would shoot buses dead, unless it’s the 414. Death to the 414. I have seen a number of people praise the Croydon changes. Maybe as I live in the far north of the Borough, I thought they were a non-event! |
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Post by TB123 on Jan 17, 2021 0:25:55 GMT
I think TfL have to be smart with these cuts, they need to attract people to use the buses by creating better, smarter and more effective links. Hacking away links, particularly from the south would not help long term. Merging routes like the 1 and 47 seems great but you’d end up with a really long route that could go down in one bad evening and strand dozens of passengers. In my opinion TfL needs smaller routes with better town connections and existing routes to feed those. You only need to look to the Sutton/Croydon consultation to see where TfL can do this successfully. Yes tweaking a frequency to better match usage but removing entire routes in the initial stages would shoot buses dead, unless it’s the 414. Death to the 414. I have seen a number of people praise the Croydon changes. Maybe as I live in the far north of the Borough, I thought they were a non-event! I live in the north of the borough too and I think they are good changes. One idea I liked was the idea of a new route down Norbury Hill but this was not viable due to the lack of new housing planned. Overall, most of the gaps in the north of the Borough have been filled in recent times - the network there is generally very good now. The south of the Borough and Sutton definitely warranted attention. |
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Post by vjaska on Jan 17, 2021 0:34:46 GMT
The other thing with tfl now is that they are quite happy to changes routes more then once. The 172 changed in the 2017 and 2019 schemes so I think some of the 2019 changes to routes could be amended again. Whilst it wouldn't do much for reliability I could see a couple of routes across Holborn joined together. The 1, 68 or 172 could easily be joined and the 168 axed with say the 68 West Norwood to Hampstead Heath with a robust timetable at certain times. You couldn't run the 68 like that in today's conditions, it's far too long a route to work reliably with or without a robust timetable. |
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Post by southlondonbus on Jan 17, 2021 0:41:10 GMT
Tfl pushed on with the 88 and C2 with a 95 mins journey time plus the new 110 route. It won't stop them doing it again if it makes a saving.
Unfortunately I think you'll find its either join two routes together or loose the links all together. Personally I think the 172 and 168 would be the better two routes to join together with the 45 extending to Old Kent Road to maintain capacity between TESCO and Elephant. That would possibly then free up stand space at Elephant for the 188 which would help improve reliability
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2021 0:41:30 GMT
I have seen a number of people praise the Croydon changes. Maybe as I live in the far north of the Borough, I thought they were a non-event! I live in the north of the borough too and I think they are good changes. One idea I liked was the idea of a new route down Norbury Hill but this was not viable due to the lack of new housing planned. Overall, most of the gaps in the north of the Borough have been filled in recent times - the network there is generally very good now. The south of the Borough and Sutton definitely warranted attention. Sutton needed attention especially as there a zero per cent chance of the tram coming ever. |
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Post by vjaska on Jan 17, 2021 0:41:42 GMT
I have seen a number of people praise the Croydon changes. Maybe as I live in the far north of the Borough, I thought they were a non-event! I live in the north of the borough too and I think they are good changes. One idea I liked was the idea of a new route down Norbury Hill but this was not viable due to the lack of new housing planned. Overall, most of the gaps in the north of the Borough have been filled in recent times - the network there is generally very good now. The south of the Borough and Sutton definitely warranted attention. I wouldn't call terminating the 405 & 412 short of West Croydon as good nor the removal of a bus link between Waddon Marsh & Croydon. The frequency increases (baring the 466 which TBH is very excessive) were certainly good as was the 404's extension and I've come around to the 407 split though still think that can be done better but I wouldn't call every change as good. |
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Post by vjaska on Jan 17, 2021 0:46:17 GMT
Tfl pushed on with the 88 and C2 with a 95 mins journey time plus the new 110 route. It won't stop them doing it again if it makes a saving. Unfortunately I think you'll find its either join two routes together or loose the links all together. Personally I think the 172 and 168 would be the better two routes to join together with the 45 extending to Old Kent Road to maintain capacity between TESCO and Elephant. That would possibly then free up stand space at Elephant for the 188 which would help improve reliability The 88 doesn't go as far south as the 68 does so hardly a fair comparison and it's not as simple as your suggesting to join two routes together - the 172 falls into the same boat especially as the new route would be even longer than the current 168. The capacity along the Old Kent Road has been maintained as a result of the 415's extension so it makes even less sense to start pulling something out. |
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Post by TB123 on Jan 17, 2021 0:47:10 GMT
I live in the north of the borough too and I think they are good changes. One idea I liked was the idea of a new route down Norbury Hill but this was not viable due to the lack of new housing planned. Overall, most of the gaps in the north of the Borough have been filled in recent times - the network there is generally very good now. The south of the Borough and Sutton definitely warranted attention. I wouldn't call terminating the 405 & 412 short of West Croydon as good nor the removal of a bus link between Waddon Marsh & Croydon. The frequency increases (baring the 466 which TBH is very excessive) were certainly good as was the 404's extension and I've come around to the 407 split though still think that can be done better but I wouldn't call every change as good. Unless I'm wrong I think the changes being referred to were the ones recently put out to consultation recently (which are generally good) rather than the ones 18 months ago (which I dislike and still do) The removal of a bus link between Waddon Marsh & Croydon is not ideal but I think so long as the option put forward for the 645 to serve Waddon Marsh is taken up, providing such a link at school times this option would be okay. As for the 466 frequency increases, I was a little sceptical at first until I learned it was conjunction with the 166/312/407 changes - and on that view it makes perfect sense. |
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