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Post by ServerKing on Sept 5, 2021 16:27:46 GMT
I suspect you may be right. With London I speculate that the garages would be sold off to: AD, E, EC, WN, AR, GY, DX and DT - Would be sold to Transdev SF - Would be sold to GAL with routes 38 and 73 AE - Would be sold to HCT Group with route 253 Route 242 - Would be novated to Tower Transit CT - Would be redeveloped into a bus station and blocks of flats. BN - Would be sold to Abellio London TH, TC and N - Would be sold to Stagecoach Selkent Nice creative idea to give other operators the opportunity to expand in London. Furthermore, as Transdev have expanded their range of tendered services in Lancs & Yorks this year they would be suited to London tenders if interested. It would be great to see First return, they could buy SF, CT, AE Stagecoach take AR and WN, Metroline take Enfield... TBH this speculation never amounts to much. I remember the same conversations about Arriva and their future in 2014, DB won't sell the most profitable part of their business. Arriva needs an overhaul in terms of presentation, from services outside London which have been slammed for lack of updated information on their website, poor customer service, knackered buses. London does much better thanks to fairly regular investment. I wouldn't like to see them disappear, but they have so much going on at the moment with running the Overground, Chiltern Railway, CrossCountry and Grand Central (open access rail), though outside London they are losing out to independent firms. They still have ex London VLWs plying their trade on the 500 between Watford and Aylesbury (their age hidden with NI registrations now), but it seems parent firm DB needs to take better care of Arriva. If there was plans to sell up, at least make the item for sale looks presentable  |
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Post by YX10FFN on Sept 5, 2021 16:32:14 GMT
Thought I'd add my two cents since I'm pretty familiar with Merseyside Buses. I think a common theme I've seen in this thread is that Arriva's operations largely lack ambition and a direction. Well I can certainly say that's true for ANW. The B5LHs and E200EVs were impressive and popular new batches for Liverpool, but that's now 4-5 years ago. Since then no new buses have been acquired, whilst batches of 12-13-14 year old Commanders, Pulsar Eclipses and ALX400s are having the life squeezed out of them on a daily basis. ANW operate the majority of services in Merseyside, but you feel there's an air of neglect about the whole operation. Doesn't seem to be a plan to replace a significant amount of clearly ageing vehicles.
In contrast, Stagecoach Merseyside replaced their entire double deck fleet in 2016-2018, acquiring mid life Enviro 400s from Oxford, the Coastliner 700 E400 fleet and purchasing an enormous batch of MMCs. Their Enviro 300s are due a replacement but are still in better condition than Arriva's single decks.
I can certainly corroborate the dying off of any sort of branding, they operated Sapphire X1 (which they shifted off to MP Travel after the pandemic) and 79C, of which a mish mash of buses operate on at the moment, mostly those same 12 year old Pulsars suffered by the rest of the region. Also is the strange half-demise of the 500, of which its EcoCity buses were given to Runcorn, didn't even operate the route for at least a year during the pandemic, and now operate it on a reduced frequency with spare Gemini 2s. Common theme here is a simple lack of care.
The main question or point I'm trying to make here is, What is the direction of Arriva? Where is the investment? Where is the plan? The people of Liverpool, and up and down the country, deserve better.
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Post by MetrolineGA1511 on Sept 5, 2021 17:24:20 GMT
Nice creative idea to give other operators the opportunity to expand in London. Furthermore, as Transdev have expanded their range of tendered services in Lancs & Yorks this year they would be suited to London tenders if interested. It would be great to see First return, they could buy SF, CT, AE Stagecoach take AR and WN, Metroline take Enfield... TBH this speculation never amounts to much. I remember the same conversations about Arriva and their future in 2014, DB won't sell the most profitable part of their business. Arriva needs an overhaul in terms of presentation, from services outside London which have been slammed for lack of updated information on their website, poor customer service, knackered buses. London does much better thanks to fairly regular investment. I wouldn't like to see them disappear, but they have so much going on at the moment with running the Overground, Chiltern Railway, CrossCountry and Grand Central (open access rail), though outside London they are losing out to independent firms. They still have ex London VLWs plying their trade on the 500 between Watford and Aylesbury (their age hidden with NI registrations now), but it seems parent firm DB needs to take better care of Arriva. If there was plans to sell up, at least make the item for sale looks presentable When I saw 52-reg VLWs to MAX spec in Newcastle in June, I was quite shocked by how pointless such a brand was on such old buses. |
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Post by tony4387 on Sept 5, 2021 21:47:41 GMT
What parts of arriva does DB consider as non core
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Post by ServerKing on Sept 6, 2021 20:18:13 GMT
It would be great to see First return, they could buy SF, CT, AE Stagecoach take AR and WN, Metroline take Enfield... TBH this speculation never amounts to much. I remember the same conversations about Arriva and their future in 2014, DB won't sell the most profitable part of their business. Arriva needs an overhaul in terms of presentation, from services outside London which have been slammed for lack of updated information on their website, poor customer service, knackered buses. London does much better thanks to fairly regular investment. I wouldn't like to see them disappear, but they have so much going on at the moment with running the Overground, Chiltern Railway, CrossCountry and Grand Central (open access rail), though outside London they are losing out to independent firms. They still have ex London VLWs plying their trade on the 500 between Watford and Aylesbury (their age hidden with NI registrations now), but it seems parent firm DB needs to take better care of Arriva. If there was plans to sell up, at least make the item for sale looks presentable When I saw 52-reg VLWs to MAX spec in Newcastle in June, I was quite shocked by how pointless such a brand was on such old buses. It seems MAX was slightly beneath Sapphire in specification, leather seats, but may not have had all the on board announcements which was all the rage when Sapphire was launched (despite the fact we've had iBus in London for years  ) The Max stuff out on the 500 is a mixture of ex 137 DWs (DB250s), the first VLWs from London, even ex Arriva Click minibuses may be seen from time to time with ex 258 DLAs. Some with Interurban livery, some Max, some with other stuff on. You wouldn't see such poor presentation with a Stagecoach bus, TBH...  perhaps the all over red in London has been a protection so we don't see such a mess. What parts of arriva does DB consider as non core Most of the UK business it seems... about 15% of investment from DB reaches Arriva UK Bus, hence the slump in investment in recent times, from retaining routes, to winning new ones or maintenance of ageing stock. Most of the workhorses of the Provinces, the Pulsar SB200 single deckers, are between 10 to 14 years, and may need replacing sooner or later (finally Wrightbus have a worthy replacement in the 6 cylinder GB Hawk single decker). DB struggling at home in Germany may see them divest or get rid of Arriva at some point, but they have said that for years too... |
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Post by SILENCED on Sept 6, 2021 21:00:37 GMT
When I saw 52-reg VLWs to MAX spec in Newcastle in June, I was quite shocked by how pointless such a brand was on such old buses. It seems MAX was slightly beneath Sapphire in specification, leather seats, but may not have had all the on board announcements which was all the rage when Sapphire was launched (despite the fact we've had iBus in London for years ) The Max stuff out on the 500 is a mixture of ex 137 DWs (DB250s), the first VLWs from London, even ex Arriva Click minibuses may be seen from time to time with ex 258 DLAs. Some with Interurban livery, some Max, some with other stuff on. You wouldn't see such poor presentation with a Stagecoach bus, TBH... perhaps the all over red in London has been a protection so we don't see such a mess. What parts of arriva does DB consider as non core Most of the UK business it seems... about 15% of investment from DB reaches Arriva UK Bus, hence the slump in investment in recent times, from retaining routes, to winning new ones or maintenance of ageing stock. Most of the workhorses of the Provinces, the Pulsar SB200 single deckers, are between 10 to 14 years, and may need replacing sooner or later (finally Wrightbus have a worthy replacement in the 6 cylinder GB Hawk single decker). DB struggling at home in Germany may see them divest or get rid of Arriva at some point, but they have said that for years too... Wow 15% .... investment in German rail for 2021 alone is 12.7b euros .... if there was no other investment by DB, 15% of that would be 1.9b euros ... enough to replace the majority if not the whole of the Arriva UK bus fleet every year |
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Post by SILENCED on Sept 6, 2021 21:02:27 GMT
What parts of arriva does DB consider as non core not seen the list, but imagine countries where they only have a small presence |
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Post by ServerKing on Sept 6, 2021 21:46:47 GMT
What parts of arriva does DB consider as non core not seen the list, but imagine countries where they only have a small presence I think in some countries like Portugal Arriva may have a majority shareholding in a bus operator, but not enough to completely take it over and rebrand it. DB's had issues where Arriva's work had duplicated their own in certain markets. Plus DB Schenker was losing money at the time. Factor in uncertainties brought by Brexit, the need to replace a lot of buses which should have been withdrawn but soldier on (see Aylesbury 500s  ), decision on buying electric or hybrids next due to having to install infrastructure etc... Most of this was covered by Buses mag, which I doubt was speculation, but observation of a gradual decline over a few years. They could bounce back like First (I was in Weston Super Mare last week on holiday, and saw ex London B7TL's on LK53 plates, looking very smart in Badgerline livery), perhaps a move away from naff sub brands like MAX and Frequenta and a smarter livery rather than plain sky blue, or aging buses in Sapphire trim may help. Look at the presentation of Go Ahead buses across the UK, not everything has to be corporate blandness or falling to bits  |
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Post by SILENCED on Sept 6, 2021 21:49:13 GMT
not seen the list, but imagine countries where they only have a small presence I think in some countries like Portugal Arriva may have a majority shareholding in a bus operator, but not enough to completely take it over and rebrand it. DB's had issues where Arriva's work had duplicated their own in certain markets. Plus DB Schenker was losing money at the time. Factor in uncertainties brought by Brexit, the need to replace a lot of buses which should have been withdrawn but soldier on (see Aylesbury 500s ), decision on buying electric or hybrids next due to having to install infrastructure etc... Most of this was covered by Buses mag, which I doubt was speculation, but observation of a gradual decline over a few years. They could bounce back like First (I was in Weston Super Mare last week on holiday, and saw ex London B7TL's on LK53 plates, looking very smart in Badgerline livery), perhaps a move away from naff sub brands like MAX and Frequenta and a smarter livery rather than plain sky blue, or aging buses in Sapphire trim may help. Look at the presentation of Go Ahead buses across the UK, not everything has to be corporate blandness or falling to bits Max and frequenta have already been consigned to the history books .... it is Sapphire or standard now .... all new Arriva buses now meet what was Max as standard. If a bus in either of those liveries gets repainted, it will receive the standard Arriva blue. |
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Post by LondonNorthern on Sept 6, 2021 21:57:38 GMT
not seen the list, but imagine countries where they only have a small presence I think in some countries like Portugal Arriva may have a majority shareholding in a bus operator, but not enough to completely take it over and rebrand it. DB's had issues where Arriva's work had duplicated their own in certain markets. Plus DB Schenker was losing money at the time. Factor in uncertainties brought by Brexit, the need to replace a lot of buses which should have been withdrawn but soldier on (see Aylesbury 500s ), decision on buying electric or hybrids next due to having to install infrastructure etc... Most of this was covered by Buses mag, which I doubt was speculation, but observation of a gradual decline over a few years. They could bounce back like First (I was in Weston Super Mare last week on holiday, and saw ex London B7TL's on LK53 plates, looking very smart in Badgerline livery), perhaps a move away from naff sub brands like MAX and Frequenta and a smarter livery rather than plain sky blue, or aging buses in Sapphire trim may help. Look at the presentation of Go Ahead buses across the UK, not everything has to be corporate blandness or falling to bits In regards to Arriva's 500 there are only 3 B7TLs that are 51 plate but on the whole I'd agree. |
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Post by tony4387 on Sept 7, 2021 10:19:01 GMT
Wonder if any of the uk bus companies will be considered as non core busniess
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Post by twobellstogo on Sept 7, 2021 10:42:02 GMT
Wonder if any of the uk bus companies will be considered as non core busniess I would imagine Arriva Bus UK is core in its entirety - but I can certainly see more small chunks of it being broken off and sold - I am astonished that they still see a future in Guildford, for example, and I can see Go-Coach eating up the network from Sevenoaks to Tunbridge Wells and all towns and villages in between. |
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Post by ServerKing on Sept 7, 2021 17:46:15 GMT
I think in some countries like Portugal Arriva may have a majority shareholding in a bus operator, but not enough to completely take it over and rebrand it. DB's had issues where Arriva's work had duplicated their own in certain markets. Plus DB Schenker was losing money at the time. Factor in uncertainties brought by Brexit, the need to replace a lot of buses which should have been withdrawn but soldier on (see Aylesbury 500s ), decision on buying electric or hybrids next due to having to install infrastructure etc... Most of this was covered by Buses mag, which I doubt was speculation, but observation of a gradual decline over a few years. They could bounce back like First (I was in Weston Super Mare last week on holiday, and saw ex London B7TL's on LK53 plates, looking very smart in Badgerline livery), perhaps a move away from naff sub brands like MAX and Frequenta and a smarter livery rather than plain sky blue, or aging buses in Sapphire trim may help. Look at the presentation of Go Ahead buses across the UK, not everything has to be corporate blandness or falling to bits In regards to Arriva's 500 there are only 3 B7TLs that are 51 plate but on the whole I'd agree. I think the ex 137 DWs get to scream along the A41 in 3rd gear The B7TL's now wear UUI marks to hide their age. But last time I looked, the standard required was anything with a working engine, hence anything from Sprinter van to double decker I didn't know MAX was history, but I hope things settle down a little more. I thought The Shires had gone, absorbed into Midlands, but it's still about  It seems Southern Counties and Midlands are co-parenting I'd like Arriva to do well, but if they start surrendering routes like in Guildford and many other places, it won't be good for them long term. I was behind EN16 on the 318 back on The Roundway, Tottenham this afternoon, the bus looks a state, having had a knock on the right hand side at the back with a corner section hanging on for dear life, the wheel arch trim is coming off and the engine is making a racket and was smoking a lot. I'm more surprised at TfL than Arriva for the state of these buses on the 318, but then TfL is broke too |
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Post by MetrolineGA1511 on Sept 11, 2021 8:41:20 GMT
I think in some countries like Portugal Arriva may have a majority shareholding in a bus operator, but not enough to completely take it over and rebrand it. DB's had issues where Arriva's work had duplicated their own in certain markets. Plus DB Schenker was losing money at the time. Factor in uncertainties brought by Brexit, the need to replace a lot of buses which should have been withdrawn but soldier on (see Aylesbury 500s ), decision on buying electric or hybrids next due to having to install infrastructure etc... Most of this was covered by Buses mag, which I doubt was speculation, but observation of a gradual decline over a few years. They could bounce back like First (I was in Weston Super Mare last week on holiday, and saw ex London B7TL's on LK53 plates, looking very smart in Badgerline livery), perhaps a move away from naff sub brands like MAX and Frequenta and a smarter livery rather than plain sky blue, or aging buses in Sapphire trim may help. Look at the presentation of Go Ahead buses across the UK, not everything has to be corporate blandness or falling to bits Max and frequenta have already been consigned to the history books .... it is Sapphire or standard now .... all new Arriva buses now meet what was Max as standard. If a bus in either of those liveries gets repainted, it will receive the standard Arriva blue. I did indeed see some former MAX Geminis in Yorkshire repainted into standard livery in July. Maybe some Geminis from route 349, once converted to LT, will also be repainted into standard livery and replace the oldest double-deckers, such as VLWs elsewhere? |
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Post by MetrolineGA1511 on Sept 11, 2021 8:43:03 GMT
Wonder if any of the uk bus companies will be considered as non core busniess I would imagine Arriva Bus UK is core in its entirety - but I can certainly see more small chunks of it being broken off and sold - I am astonished that they still see a future in Guildford, for example, and I can see Go-Coach eating up the network from Sevenoaks to Tunbridge Wells and all towns and villages in between. Maybe, like with Cannock and Yorkshire Tiger, they will agree ad-hoc divestments if they get reasonable offers. Guildford could prove a case in point. |
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perhaps the all over red in London has been a protection so we don't see such a mess.
), decision on buying electric or hybrids next due to having to install infrastructure etc...
It seems Southern Counties and Midlands are co-parenting