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Post by cardinal on Mar 6, 2023 7:45:30 GMT
Nothing would ever get double decked if residents got their way with this reasoning! Not sure what some people's obsession with double decks is. It is well known that 30% of passengers won't or can't due to mobility problems go upstairs, the stairs take the place of many non step seats. Most surburban routes where the looking into upstairs windows debates happen, can take longer single decks anyway. And if somewhere like Richmond with its old horse and cart street layout could take 12m buses on H37 then I suspect it is a myth that 12m buses won't fit in most of London. There is also a new argument, if you have a single deck electric bus fleet, much easier to develop a garage with over site development than to build a garage capable of taking double deck hybrid or diesel buses. Because no neighbour will want noisy or polluting bus starting up before 7am. (7am is normally deemed children's sleep time on planning applications) We do cling on to the double deck in this country. And you’re absolutely correct, having a large single deck zero emission garage is a good way forward in my opinion. Especially for London. |
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Post by greenboy on Mar 6, 2023 7:57:46 GMT
Nothing would ever get double decked if residents got their way with this reasoning! Not sure what some people's obsession with double decks is. It is well known that 30% of passengers won't or can't due to mobility problems go upstairs, the stairs take the place of many non step seats. Most surburban routes where the looking into upstairs windows debates happen, can take longer single decks anyway. And if somewhere like Richmond with its old horse and cart street layout could take 12m buses on H37 then I suspect it is a myth that 12m buses won't fit in most of London. There is also a new argument, if you have a single deck electric bus fleet, much easier to develop a garage with over site development than to build a garage capable of taking double deck hybrid or diesel buses. Because no neighbour will want noisy or polluting bus starting up before 7am. (7am is normally deemed children's sleep time on planning applications) I don't get this fixation about double deckers either, they're fine for many routes but equally there are routes for which single deckers are fine and there are routes like the 353 and 412 that only need double deckers for school loadings. |
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Post by vjaska on Mar 6, 2023 12:28:10 GMT
Nothing would ever get double decked if residents got their way with this reasoning! Not sure what some people's obsession with double decks is. It is well known that 30% of passengers won't or can't due to mobility problems go upstairs, the stairs take the place of many non step seats. Most surburban routes where the looking into upstairs windows debates happen, can take longer single decks anyway. And if somewhere like Richmond with its old horse and cart street layout could take 12m buses on H37 then I suspect it is a myth that 12m buses won't fit in most of London. There is also a new argument, if you have a single deck electric bus fleet, much easier to develop a garage with over site development than to build a garage capable of taking double deck hybrid or diesel buses. Because no neighbour will want noisy or polluting bus starting up before 7am. (7am is normally deemed children's sleep time on planning applications) I find your first line quite condescending - rather than make your point, you've assumed it's an obsession of people rather than their belief otherwise people could argue you have an obsession with 12m single deckers considering this isn't the first time you've mentioned them in a conversation regarding double deckers - it works both ways and first lines like that is one reason why the forum is currently in a poor state. The fact that 70% would go upstairs shows there is clearly an appetite for double deckers and it's a myth that shorter length routes see double deckers with little people upstairs - the 371 is brought up a lot and yet I've been on plenty of 371's with double deckers that aren't the scheduled school workings and plenty of people are upstairs. Not one person has said 12m single deckers don't fit in London - there are several examples past & present of 12m single decker routes so why this is even brought up is baffling. They clearly have their use, usually on routes where there is a clear height restriction like the 358 & H37 for instance. I'd imagine new garages are now mainly developed based on electric anyway - I mean, AH & WN are both being rebuilt and will have electric double deckers so again, is this another myth regarding garage building only being easier to develop for electric single deckers as apposed to any electric bus? |
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Post by londonbuses on Mar 6, 2023 18:20:28 GMT
Routes which I believe need frequency increases (some are recent cuts which should be undone):
57 81 117 120 157 170 195 203 207 213 267 278 281 470 481 490 493 607 H28 R68 S4 U7 X26
These are based on a mix of usage data and real life observations, and many are around the Greater London border because of the forthcoming ULEZ extension. (The majority of the routes are in West and South London as those are the areas I am most familiar with).
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Post by southlondonbus on Mar 6, 2023 18:29:51 GMT
Routes which I believe need frequency increases (some are recent cuts which should be undone): 57 81 117 120 157 170 195 203 207 213 267 278 281 470 481 490 493 607 H28 R68 S4 U7 X26 These are based on a mix of usage data and real life observations, and many are around the Greater London border because of the forthcoming ULEZ extension. (The majority of the routes are in West and South London as those are the areas I am most familiar with). The S4 is proposed to go up to every 20 mins (as will the S2 be on the replacement section). |
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Post by abellion on Mar 6, 2023 18:37:05 GMT
Routes which I believe need frequency increases (some are recent cuts which should be undone): 57 81 117 120 157 170 195 203 207 213 267 278 281 470 481 490 493 607 H28 R68 S4 U7 X26 These are based on a mix of usage data and real life observations, and many are around the Greater London border because of the forthcoming ULEZ extension. (The majority of the routes are in West and South London as those are the areas I am most familiar with). If the 131 stays at x8 when next awarded then increasing the 57 back seems unlikely. |
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Post by southlondon413 on Mar 6, 2023 18:40:13 GMT
Routes which I believe need frequency increases (some are recent cuts which should be undone): 57 81 117 120 157 170 195 203 207 213 267 278 281 470 481 490 493 607 H28 R68 S4 U7 X26 These are based on a mix of usage data and real life observations, and many are around the Greater London border because of the forthcoming ULEZ extension. (The majority of the routes are in West and South London as those are the areas I am most familiar with). If the 131 stays at x8 when next awarded then increasing the 57 back seems unlikely. Even if the 131 went x10 the joint sections would still be absolutely fine. |
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Post by matthieu1221 on Mar 6, 2023 19:17:23 GMT
Nothing would ever get double decked if residents got their way with this reasoning! Not sure what some people's obsession with double decks is. It is well known that 30% of passengers won't or can't due to mobility problems go upstairs, the stairs take the place of many non step seats. Most surburban routes where the looking into upstairs windows debates happen, can take longer single decks anyway. And if somewhere like Richmond with its old horse and cart street layout could take 12m buses on H37 then I suspect it is a myth that 12m buses won't fit in most of London. There is also a new argument, if you have a single deck electric bus fleet, much easier to develop a garage with over site development than to build a garage capable of taking double deck hybrid or diesel buses. Because no neighbour will want noisy or polluting bus starting up before 7am. (7am is normally deemed children's sleep time on planning applications)
12m SDs and DDs arguably fill different roles and I'm saying this as someone who is very much a fan of long SDs and long DDs too.
Short routes, sure go for the 12m SD, or even longer routes too if there is enough capacity for most passengers to get a seat.
Routes where passengers tend to have longer journeys, go for the DD.
I don't see why the fact that 30% of passengers won't or can't go upstairs should be an argument in favour of SDs. Anyone who ends up going upstairs frees up space downstairs.
I do have to agree that one of my peeves about the bus network here is that 12m SDs aren't used where they could be. Extra capacity is never a bad thing. Aside from frequency, reliability and travel times, onboard comfort is very important. Routes shouldn't have to be overcrowded before getting longer buses.
From what I've seen 12m DDs are a whole debate on here due to dwell times and other factors but similarly I do wish longer DDs were used (and I'm not counting the LT as being one given it's lower capacity and its terrible lower deck interior layout which is a waste of space imo).
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Post by COBO on Mar 6, 2023 20:37:04 GMT
Not sure what some people's obsession with double decks is. It is well known that 30% of passengers won't or can't due to mobility problems go upstairs, the stairs take the place of many non step seats. Most surburban routes where the looking into upstairs windows debates happen, can take longer single decks anyway. And if somewhere like Richmond with its old horse and cart street layout could take 12m buses on H37 then I suspect it is a myth that 12m buses won't fit in most of London. There is also a new argument, if you have a single deck electric bus fleet, much easier to develop a garage with over site development than to build a garage capable of taking double deck hybrid or diesel buses. Because no neighbour will want noisy or polluting bus starting up before 7am. (7am is normally deemed children's sleep time on planning applications) 12m SDs and DDs arguably fill different roles and I'm saying this as someone who is very much a fan of long SDs and long DDs too.
Short routes, sure go for the 12m SD, or even longer routes too if there is enough capacity for most passengers to get a seat.
Routes where passengers tend to have longer journeys, go for the DD. I don't see why the fact that 30% of passengers won't or can't go upstairs should be an argument in favour of SDs. Anyone who ends up going upstairs frees up space downstairs. I do have to agree that one of my peeves about the bus network here is that 12m SDs aren't used where they could be. Extra capacity is never a bad thing. Aside from frequency, reliability and travel times, onboard comfort is very important. Routes shouldn't have to be overcrowded before getting longer buses. From what I've seen 12m DDs are a whole debate on here due to dwell times and other factors but similarly I do wish longer DDs were used (and I'm not counting the LT as being one given it's lower capacity and its terrible lower deck interior layout which is a waste of space imo).
we’ll said, |
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Post by gwiwer on Mar 18, 2023 21:17:37 GMT
Routes which I believe need frequency increases (some are recent cuts which should be undone): 57 81 117 120 157 170 195 203 207 213 267 278 281 470 481 490 493 607 H28 R68 S4 U7 X26 These are based on a mix of usage data and real life observations, and many are around the Greater London border because of the forthcoming ULEZ extension. (The majority of the routes are in West and South London as those are the areas I am most familiar with). The 81 was every 30 / 60 minutes for many years and is every 10 now. The times I see it I wonder how much longer that can last rather than increasing it further. The 117 and 281 I agree with; both load very well across the day and along the routes. Take the 281 to every 7/8 minutes through the day for example and leave it at every 10 in the later evenings. In my book the R68 should have larger buses at the same headway, or a slight uplift. It gets busy at times but relies to an extent on visitors to Hampton Court or upon being the first bus along the shared stretch between Twickenham and Richmond - a stretch which has seen recent cuts with the 110 / H22 changes. I would like to see it taken on through Thames Ditton to Surbiton as well. That is a link between locations within the TfL boundary which cannot be made easily by bus today because the road between is in Surrey. It used to be the 201 many years ago. There is a train but it doesn't serve the homes through Esher Road or Ember Lane nor does it link nicely with the busy Esher Sixth Form College. I would route the service via Esher Road, Ember Lane, Ember Court Road, Hampton Court Road, Weston Green Road, Station Road, High Street Thames Ditton, St. Leonards Road, Portsmouth Road, Brighton Road and Victoria Road to Surbiton Station. I fail to see the point of the 481 other than for a couple of school trips. I am told it is cheaper to run the service all day than to convert it to a 6xx school bus for just those trips. It surely doesn't need an uplift carrying just 2 - 3 passengers at a time every half hour. The X26 is a special case. Its length makes it non-viable at £1.75 a trip but to alter that would potentially make it less attractive as well as requiring unique software. It's not the only long limited stop service; the x68 runs it a close second yet isn't threatened with withdrawal or alteration. Patronage on the X26 has been falling but might recover if it ran every 20 minutes through the main part of the day. It's often not worth waiting up to 30 minutes when all-stops routes turn up first and are fine for many journeys. It should also have a stop in Feltham restored. It passes through north of the main centre but adding a stop at Harlington Road East would offer a service to anyone in that area at a minimal cost in journey time. I'll reserve judgement on the 207 / 607 until we see the effect of the 427 changes. The rest are routes I don't often use and am not well placed to comment upon. |
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Post by northlondon83 on Mar 18, 2023 21:49:41 GMT
Routes which I believe need frequency increases (some are recent cuts which should be undone): 57 81 117 120 157 170 195 203 207 213 267 278 281 470 481 490 493 607 H28 R68 S4 U7 X26 These are based on a mix of usage data and real life observations, and many are around the Greater London border because of the forthcoming ULEZ extension. (The majority of the routes are in West and South London as those are the areas I am most familiar with). The 81 was every 30 / 60 minutes for many years and is every 10 now. The times I see it I wonder how much longer that can last rather than increasing it further. The 117 and 281 I agree with; both load very well across the day and along the routes. Take the 281 to every 7/8 minutes through the day for example and leave it at every 10 in the later evenings. In my book the R68 should have larger buses at the same headway, or a slight uplift. It gets busy at times but relies to an extent on visitors to Hampton Court or upon being the first bus along the shared stretch between Twickenham and Richmond - a stretch which has seen recent cuts with the 110 / H22 changes. I would like to see it taken on through Thames Ditton to Surbiton as well. That is a link between locations within the TfL boundary which cannot be made easily by bus today because the road between is in Surrey. It used to be the 201 many years ago. There is a train but it doesn't serve the homes through Esher Road or Ember Lane nor does it link nicely with the busy Esher Sixth Form College. I would route the service via Esher Road, Ember Lane, Ember Court Road, Hampton Court Road, Weston Green Road, Station Road, High Street Thames Ditton, St. Leonards Road, Portsmouth Road, Brighton Road and Victoria Road to Surbiton Station. I fail to see the point of the 481 other than for a couple of school trips. I am told it is cheaper to run the service all day than to convert it to a 6xx school bus for just those trips. It surely doesn't need an uplift carrying just 2 - 3 passengers at a time every half hour. The X26 is a special case. Its length makes it non-viable at £1.75 a trip but to alter that would potentially make it less attractive as well as requiring unique software. It's not the only long limited stop service; the x68 runs it a close second yet isn't threatened with withdrawal or alteration. Patronage on the X26 has been falling but might recover if it ran every 20 minutes through the main part of the day. It's often not worth waiting up to 30 minutes when all-stops routes turn up first and are fine for many journeys. It should also have a stop in Feltham restored. It passes through north of the main centre but adding a stop at Harlington Road East would offer a service to anyone in that area at a minimal cost in journey time. I'll reserve judgement on the 207 / 607 until we see the effect of the 427 changes. The rest are routes I don't often use and am not well placed to comment upon. I don't see the merit of a Feltham stop on the X26, there's the 285 to link to Heathrow, Teddington and Kingston. One place that could benefit from a stop is Waddon, because it's much further from Heathrow, if you want to go to the airport from there you need to take 2 buses, hence costing you more money |
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Post by southlondonbus on Mar 18, 2023 22:07:15 GMT
The 81 was every 30 / 60 minutes for many years and is every 10 now. The times I see it I wonder how much longer that can last rather than increasing it further. The 117 and 281 I agree with; both load very well across the day and along the routes. Take the 281 to every 7/8 minutes through the day for example and leave it at every 10 in the later evenings. In my book the R68 should have larger buses at the same headway, or a slight uplift. It gets busy at times but relies to an extent on visitors to Hampton Court or upon being the first bus along the shared stretch between Twickenham and Richmond - a stretch which has seen recent cuts with the 110 / H22 changes. I would like to see it taken on through Thames Ditton to Surbiton as well. That is a link between locations within the TfL boundary which cannot be made easily by bus today because the road between is in Surrey. It used to be the 201 many years ago. There is a train but it doesn't serve the homes through Esher Road or Ember Lane nor does it link nicely with the busy Esher Sixth Form College. I would route the service via Esher Road, Ember Lane, Ember Court Road, Hampton Court Road, Weston Green Road, Station Road, High Street Thames Ditton, St. Leonards Road, Portsmouth Road, Brighton Road and Victoria Road to Surbiton Station. I fail to see the point of the 481 other than for a couple of school trips. I am told it is cheaper to run the service all day than to convert it to a 6xx school bus for just those trips. It surely doesn't need an uplift carrying just 2 - 3 passengers at a time every half hour. The X26 is a special case. Its length makes it non-viable at £1.75 a trip but to alter that would potentially make it less attractive as well as requiring unique software. It's not the only long limited stop service; the x68 runs it a close second yet isn't threatened with withdrawal or alteration. Patronage on the X26 has been falling but might recover if it ran every 20 minutes through the main part of the day. It's often not worth waiting up to 30 minutes when all-stops routes turn up first and are fine for many journeys. It should also have a stop in Feltham restored. It passes through north of the main centre but adding a stop at Harlington Road East would offer a service to anyone in that area at a minimal cost in journey time. I'll reserve judgement on the 207 / 607 until we see the effect of the 427 changes. The rest are routes I don't often use and am not well placed to comment upon. I don't see the merit of a Feltham stop on the X26, there's the 285 to link to Heathrow, Teddington and Kingston. One place that could benefit from a stop is Waddon, because it's much further from Heathrow, if you want to go to the airport from there you need to take 2 buses, hence costing you more money Wouldn't necessarily cost more money as you could take the 407 from Waddon to Wallington Green to get on the Heathrow bus. |
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Post by northlondon83 on Mar 18, 2023 22:10:25 GMT
I don't see the merit of a Feltham stop on the X26, there's the 285 to link to Heathrow, Teddington and Kingston. One place that could benefit from a stop is Waddon, because it's much further from Heathrow, if you want to go to the airport from there you need to take 2 buses, hence costing you more money Wouldn't necessarily cost more money as you could take the 407 from Waddon to Wallington Green to get on the Heathrow bus. In the other direction it would |
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Post by gwiwer on Mar 21, 2023 21:29:14 GMT
The X26 is a special case. Its length makes it non-viable at £1.75 a trip but to alter that would potentially make it less attractive as well as requiring unique software. It's not the only long limited stop service; the x68 runs it a close second yet isn't threatened with withdrawal or alteration. Patronage on the X26 has been falling but might recover if it ran every 20 minutes through the main part of the day. It's often not worth waiting up to 30 minutes when all-stops routes turn up first and are fine for many journeys. It should also have a stop in Feltham restored. It passes through north of the main centre but adding a stop at Harlington Road East would offer a service to anyone in that area at a minimal cost in journey time. I don't see the merit of a Feltham stop on the X26, there's the 285 to link to Heathrow, Teddington and Kingston. One place that could benefit from a stop is Waddon, because it's much further from Heathrow, if you want to go to the airport from there you need to take 2 buses, hence costing you more money The point is to offer the speedier service for which the X26 exists. It's not just to Heathrow, Teddington or Kingston but towards Croydon as well. Using the 285 comes at a significant time penalty for most of those trips simply because it serves all stops. The X26 serving Harlington Road East might cost a minute or might be absorbed into the schedule but with the adjacent stops at Hatton Cross or Teddington it should prove attractive. In another lifetime the Green Line 727, which the X26 effectively replaces over the Kingston - Heathrow leg, stopped there and charge a good deal more than the red buses not the same fare as it would be today. |
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Post by evergreenadam on May 1, 2023 20:26:39 GMT
Withdraw route 148 between Shepherds Bush Green and White City Bus Station. Carries fresh air and gets stuck in traffic on Wood Lane, the route is already long and unreliable enough without this pointless section tagged on.
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