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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Jan 3, 2022 14:42:43 GMT
What makes this funny is transport usage is probably at its highest in East London, the pax/mile list of routes that can be generated pretty much is always dominated by routes in East London, without fail you know the 238, 104, 330 etc will always be there. It's also telling despite the 25 has been almost halved in what it was once, it's still making the top 10 busiest routes in London while other routes that have fallen off completely haven't been touched at all. Changes such as just extending the 115 that bit further into Central, sending the 25 to at least High Holborn, restoring the 8 to Oxford Circus would be a lot more appreciated by the locals than their cost. I'm at a bit of a loss as to why the 14 and the 414 are both needed, while apparently over in East London nobody needs to go further East than City Thameslink. The 8 makes it to TCR, but it then doesn't go further East than Bow. Then don't start me on the 15 which culls short at Blackwall but can't make it further west than Trafalgar Square for some reason. Yet we have half the routes that come up the Whitehall going towards Oxford Circus. Why does the 25 need to be cut when the 24 is carrying fresh air, and why is the 38 still chilling about with 36 buses when it's not even in the top 30 most used routes in London anymore. People in East London have also even been given the short stick of transport within the East, it's been mentioned there's going to be 5 routes from East Ham to Canning Town, and new route 304 is adding some bling to distract people in the middle at Custom House, but this completely ignores the fact Canning Town still has no route literally going around the corner to Canary Wharf nor out of every route that heads down Barking Road from Canning Town, only one extremely overcrowded route actually makes it to Barking on the other end. The only route from Canning Town to Ilford is the indirect 147, while the only route from Stratford to Barking is another overcrowded mess. Getting from Hackney Central to the Newham area is just supported but he 276, while getting to Redbridge involves walking away to the 425 and getting to Barking and Dagenham is pretty much impossible by just using one bus. Then why is Stratford impossible to reach by bus from Dagenham without needing to get to the 86 at Chadwell Heath? These are all links people actually want and need, you can tell just because of how bad the 5, 86 and 25 all are. Would the 425 be better off rerouted via Hackney Central then? I do think that is a good idea, it does skirt around Hackney which I'd have thought would be a major objective.
As for the issues with links in East London, would the 238 have been better to have extended to Becontree Heath instead of the EL2, or would have the destination "Stratford" on the front make that overcrowded? I'm no local but I'd have imagined that would be more popular than Barking Riverside? It probably would support the 5, which as you say gets seriously overcrowded. I know you once mentioned no Gants Hill to Barking link, so perhaps if the EL1/EL2 worked in tandem between Barking & Ilford with the 169 at appropriate frequencies, would the EL2 perhaps be a good one to extend further to Gants Hill? The 425 going via Hackney Central would probably be a good shout. I know when Snoggle was with us he did mention that he thought the 238 being extended to Becontree Heath would have been very counterproductive for the reason you suggest. It'd have fired up a ridiculously high amount of untapped demand and rather than helping the 5, you'd have ended up with two routes that needed help themselves. Even the EL2 these days is very well used, whenever I'm waiting for a bus in the morning and I see an EL2 approaching I don't even bother to flag it down half the time as it's packed to the rafters so it's hard to imagine what the 238 would have looked like. But the fact that may have been an issue suggests how poor the bus links really are when you're starting to worry about routes becoming far too busy. Barking to Gants Hill is a missing link indeed, the EL1 or EL2 running there in the way you suggest would have been nice. Even now it's an option, but I'd probably not want the EL1 extended there because the crowd that builds up for the EL1 at Ilford is ridiculous and I don't think the EL1 would manage having more of a crowd to deal with. It's funny to think Barking to Ilford only has two direct routes liking the two towns, with the 366 providing a more indirect link. For two major town centres only 7 stops apart you'd think there'd be a lot more provision for travel between them. |
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Post by LondonNorthern on Jan 3, 2022 14:48:17 GMT
Would the 425 be better off rerouted via Hackney Central then? I do think that is a good idea, it does skirt around Hackney which I'd have thought would be a major objective.
As for the issues with links in East London, would the 238 have been better to have extended to Becontree Heath instead of the EL2, or would have the destination "Stratford" on the front make that overcrowded? I'm no local but I'd have imagined that would be more popular than Barking Riverside? It probably would support the 5, which as you say gets seriously overcrowded. I know you once mentioned no Gants Hill to Barking link, so perhaps if the EL1/EL2 worked in tandem between Barking & Ilford with the 169 at appropriate frequencies, would the EL2 perhaps be a good one to extend further to Gants Hill? The 425 going via Hackney Central would probably be a good shout. I know when Snoggle was with us he did mention that he thought the 238 being extended to Becontree Heath would have been very counterproductive for the reason you suggest. It'd have fired up a ridiculously high amount of untapped demand and rather than helping the 5, you'd have ended up with two routes that needed help themselves. Even the EL2 these days is very well used, whenever I'm waiting for a bus in the morning and I see an EL2 approaching I don't even bother to flag it down half the time as it's packed to the rafters so it's hard to imagine what the 238 would have looked like. But the fact that may have been an issue suggests how poor the bus links really are when you're starting to worry about routes becoming far too busy. Barking to Gants Hill is a missing link indeed, the EL1 or EL2 running there in the way you suggest would have been nice. Even now it's an option, but I'd probably not want the EL1 extended there because the crowd that builds up for the EL1 at Ilford is ridiculous and I don't think the EL1 would manage having more of a crowd to deal with. It's funny to think Barking to Ilford only has two direct routes liking the two towns, with the 366 providing a more indirect link. For two major town centres only 7 stops apart you'd think there'd be a lot more provision for travel between them. If the 238 created a lot of untapped demand then surely that would be a good thing? I know the 238 is regularly overcrowded, but then couldn't you increase the frequency to a level like every 6-8 minutes if that would be the appropriate frequency level? |
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Post by vjaska on Jan 3, 2022 15:43:11 GMT
I think two things need to be mentioned here:
1) Can we not having a war of words between one part of London and another because East London got the bad end of stick undeservedly. Putney and other parts of South London deserve to have a good network just as much as East London should have one too - instead blame the people on here and elsewhere who think cuts are wonderful in their quest for a far inferior network
2) The 19 was not solely saved by Kings Road residents - the MP for Battersea as well as locals in the area petitioned for it to continue so whilst Kings Road residents probably used their influence, there were far less well off people on the other side of the river who wanted it to stay. Again, stop pitting routes against others - it’s not helpful
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Post by MKAY315 on Jan 3, 2022 16:15:59 GMT
If you have such strong views on this matter, I'm assuming you responded to the consultation or petitioned your local Assembly member/MP? Those "pretty charts" with the actual usage provide the only true representation of the services - not anecdotal observations. I love how this forum loves to obsess about cuts and yet when rational cuts are proposed it's a horror because it doesn't quite fit their crayon based ideas. Not to mention that usage to Gallons Reach has been in long term decline over the last 10 years or so because of changing shopping habits. Redevelopment of the site is proposed in the medium term in a more transit friendly manner I think east London needs a break frankly and gets the wrong end of the stick in most cases. The 19 gets saved for example whereas a bunch of east London routes (25!) have been getting decimated over the years despite ridership being high and the overall area having a demographic which relies heavily on buses. A place like Putney for example has 4 routes going into central London (14, 22, 74, 414) while from the east you barely get anything (25 goes to the middle of nowhere, 8 lands far from its objective, 115 just about gets to zone 1!) so I would quite vehemently oppose non-sensical suggestions on further cuts in east London while ostensibly not cutting much in other areas The only route from East London that is saving the Central London link I would say is the 55. I hope and pray that link never goes |
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Post by WH241 on Jan 3, 2022 16:18:23 GMT
I think east London needs a break frankly and gets the wrong end of the stick in most cases. The 19 gets saved for example whereas a bunch of east London routes (25!) have been getting decimated over the years despite ridership being high and the overall area having a demographic which relies heavily on buses. A place like Putney for example has 4 routes going into central London (14, 22, 74, 414) while from the east you barely get anything (25 goes to the middle of nowhere, 8 lands far from its objective, 115 just about gets to zone 1!) so I would quite vehemently oppose non-sensical suggestions on further cuts in east London while ostensibly not cutting much in other areas The only route from East London that is saving the Central London link I would say is the 55. I hope and pray that link never goes The thing is the 55 is more a North East than east link when compared to lost links like the 15 and 25. |
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Post by MKAY315 on Jan 3, 2022 16:18:46 GMT
Would the 425 be better off rerouted via Hackney Central then? I do think that is a good idea, it does skirt around Hackney which I'd have thought would be a major objective.
As for the issues with links in East London, would the 238 have been better to have extended to Becontree Heath instead of the EL2, or would have the destination "Stratford" on the front make that overcrowded? I'm no local but I'd have imagined that would be more popular than Barking Riverside? It probably would support the 5, which as you say gets seriously overcrowded. I know you once mentioned no Gants Hill to Barking link, so perhaps if the EL1/EL2 worked in tandem between Barking & Ilford with the 169 at appropriate frequencies, would the EL2 perhaps be a good one to extend further to Gants Hill? The 425 going via Hackney Central would probably be a good shout. I know when Snoggle was with us he did mention that he thought the 238 being extended to Becontree Heath would have been very counterproductive for the reason you suggest. It'd have fired up a ridiculously high amount of untapped demand and rather than helping the 5, you'd have ended up with two routes that needed help themselves. Even the EL2 these days is very well used, whenever I'm waiting for a bus in the morning and I see an EL2 approaching I don't even bother to flag it down half the time as it's packed to the rafters so it's hard to imagine what the 238 would have looked like. But the fact that may have been an issue suggests how poor the bus links really are when you're starting to worry about routes becoming far too busy. Barking to Gants Hill is a missing link indeed, the EL1 or EL2 running there in the way you suggest would have been nice. Even now it's an option, but I'd probably not want the EL1 extended there because the crowd that builds up for the EL1 at Ilford is ridiculous and I don't think the EL1 would manage having more of a crowd to deal with. It's funny to think Barking to Ilford only has two direct routes liking the two towns, with the 366 providing a more indirect link. For two major town centres only 7 stops apart you'd think there'd be a lot more provision for travel between them. I hate how they removed the 179 from Barking |
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Post by MKAY315 on Jan 3, 2022 16:21:57 GMT
The only route from East London that is saving the Central London link I would say is the 55. I hope and pray that link never goes The thing is the 55 is more a North East than east link when compared to lost links like the 15 and 25. True but nevertheless it's still an East London link. It's a pity what has happened to those two routes you mentioned. |
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Post by wirewiper on Jan 3, 2022 16:22:31 GMT
I certainly agree we should be doing more to encourage "active travel" by having safer and more attractive streets - although I accept that such measures can slow bus journeys and make them less attractive. What really needs to happen is a modal shift from car use to both active travel and public transport. It worked in Zurich where serious curbs on car use won popular support - because the alternatives were so attractive (trams that have priority and don't stop at traffic lights, who wouldn't love those?). I don't see any harm in enhancing the specification of new (and possibly refurbished) buses, as you say the improvements aren't costly and as well as improving the satisfaction of existing users they improve the image of bus travel generally. These improvements are already common practice outside London and operators would not do it if they didn't feel there was some sort of commercial gain to be had. Although improved specification won't cause a huge amount of modal shift in itself, they could generate extra journeys from people who are already favourably disposed to bus travel (we do exist!). It's also worth noting that some of the improvements also have a safety aspect, such as higher seat backs. TfL has an ambitious target to eliminate deaths on board buses, or caused by buses, by 2030. In regards to active travel, I do think it wouldn't work as well in London as it did in Zurich. The population densities are completely different (926 people per square kilometre in Zurich versus 5701 people per square kilometre in London) meaning that there will be more cars and as a result more people need to get to places. In regards as to why people use a car, it's very simply because of convenience and I do think lifestyles perhaps clash between London and Zurich. Active Travel should work really well in London. With those sorts of population densities it should be possible to most people have the facilities they need within walking distance, with the odd longer journey by public transport or cycle. Maybe car clubs if there really is a need to drive (although there again taxis could be an option). The only areas that are not so good are the leafy outer suburbs, but even these are peppered with local shopping parades that should be able to support a variety of shops and facilities catering to many everyday needs. And I don't buy the argument that cars are convenient in London, after all many residents already manage perfectly well without one. They have to be parked up somewhere, serviced and maintained, they cost a lot to own and run, and whenever they are taken out it is necessary to find parking at the destination - in London this can cost a small fortune. Sometimes in London it's just easier to walk, cycle or take the bus and, as with Zurich, it should be made even more so. |
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Jan 3, 2022 16:36:39 GMT
In regards to active travel, I do think it wouldn't work as well in London as it did in Zurich. The population densities are completely different (926 people per square kilometre in Zurich versus 5701 people per square kilometre in London) meaning that there will be more cars and as a result more people need to get to places. In regards as to why people use a car, it's very simply because of convenience and I do think lifestyles perhaps clash between London and Zurich. Active Travel should work really well in London. With those sorts of population densities it should be possible to most people have the facilities they need within walking distance, with the odd longer journey by public transport or cycle. Maybe car clubs if there really is a need to drive (although there again taxis could be an option). The only areas that are not so good are the leafy outer suburbs, but even these are peppered with local shopping parades that should be able to support a variety of shops and facilities catering to many everyday needs. And I don't buy the argument that cars are convenient in London. They have to be parked up somewhere, serviced and maintained, they cost a lot to own and run, and whenever they are taken out it is necessary to find parking at the destination - in London this can cost a small fortune. Sometimes in London it's just easier to walk, cycle or take the bus and, as with Zurich, it should be made even more so. Many people in London manage perfectly well without a car. I disagree with this, owning a car has been a lot easier than needing to fiddle around with public transport. Even with the congestion charge changes it's clear TfL have realised that making car travel into London difficult just stops people altogether rather than promoting public transport usage. The weekend restrictions are clearly aimed at getting people to drive into London before it kicks in and then leave after it's no longer applicable. I need to go to Westfield in a bit and hopefully get dinner on the way home, my options are walk to the 238 in the cold (or take a 62), the 62 and 238 are both every 15 minutes today. The other option is walk in the cold to the 262 which takes me around 10 minutes and that is also every 15 minutes. I can time myself leaving for the 62 so let's say wait time there is negligible. Worst case I could end up waiting 15 minutes in the cold for the 238, upon arrival at Stratford I'll need to walk over the bridge and into the shopping centre before coming out again and potentially waiting another 15 minutes for the 262 or 238. Worst case scenario again I end up waiting 15 minutes for both to turn up together. If I were to get a 262 I go to East Beckton and stop off at McDonald's to get some food. Bringing the food home is not an option on foot as the 10min walk in the cold will make my food cold, the other option being get off at Beckton Asda for the McDonald's there and get a 173 straight home, of which the 173 itself is also every 15 minutes today which could mean another 15 minute wait, whether this be in McDonald's or out in the cold, I'll be waiting and wasting time regardless. I'm not going to be able to do all of this in an hour, assuming two hours I've spent £3.10, could potentially be £4.65 if one of my bus wait times pushes me above the third hour. The flip side here is I get into my car, pelt it up the A406 and A12, most of which is in 5th gear so fuel burn is minimal. Looking on Google maps there's not any traffic that will slow me down. I go to Car Park B in Westfield which means I don't even have to go outside into the cold at any point, I don't need to spend too long in there so will make the £3 parking charge. On the way home I again use the A12 and A406 back, stopping off at the East Beckton McDonald's drive thru which is about a minute or two drive from my house. I can bring my food home nice and warm and have probably spent a lot less than I would have on the bus. I can't see where during all of that public transport will have been easier for me. The car in this case has saved me money being the cheaper option. The heating in my car keeps me warm and as that predominantly uses engine heat it doesn't cause additional fuel burn. I haven't waited for a bus at any point during this and have made all the calls of where I want to be when I want to be there. I've not been at the mercy of buses or regulation. Until this issue gets sorted out it's no surprise people use cars. |
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Post by TB123 on Jan 3, 2022 16:50:36 GMT
Right, a few predictions of mine for the London bus network. I'll do my wider society ones a bit later! We see more electric bus orders - and I expect to see the first orders of the mini E200EV, the Volvo BZL and the Jewel E. A TfL funding deal is agreed at the last minute with "less" draconian cuts of circa 5-10% to most services including buses and the definite postponement of projects like Bakerloo extension. Possibility of projects like DLR to Thamesmead continuing based off developer contributions. Also expect the intended RPI+1 fare rise will be watered down as with rail fares. Throughout the year, and especially towards the end, many more proposals for significant restructuring of the inner/Central London bus network appear, envisaging the merging and withdrawing of several routes and vastly changing the face of many others. The 1/168 and 21/271 changes proceed, perhaps with a tweak or two. At least 2-3 bus garages are closed or mothballed. Metroline Perivale is already expected to close soon. No garages open bar the Hayes relocation. Progress is made on further tweaks to the outer London bus network, with Meridian Water & Waltham Forest a particular focus. The 497 is withdrawn. The Stagecoach/Natex merger goes ahead - and at least one other operator changes ownership or sells up to another. Arriva likely changing ownership at a upper level, perhaps Lea Interchange changing hands. The 159 returns to Arriva after a hiatus of 7 years and they stage a wider bounce back after lots of recent losses. Metroline continue to steadily decline but retain operation of key routes. Most routes eligible receive a 2 year extension. The Putney routes (14/39/74/430 etc) in a much revised format are awarded to RATP in a shock result after challenging the £10 a mile awards of recent times, enabling full utilisation of Wandsworth and Westbourne Park. Almost all pre-2009 buses disappear from use and a large number of diesel doubles are replaced with hybrids displaced from cuts. The 322 Optares enter service late. Driver shortages continue further nessciating service cuts like we've seen with RATP and potentially the sub contracting of some routes, potentially even to an operator like Ensign. Crossrail opens in May and the 304 finally gets introduced before the year end. That's about it I think. Check back in a year to see how good my crystal ball is... Another thing I'd like to add which kinda fits with what I already put - I predict the tendering environment to become much more competitive and for there to be many more routes changing hands than on previous times. For a combination of factors, such as increasing electrification, a glut of garage space (assuming not all of it is culled, fully expect much of it to be) and the shortage of professional drivers. In inner London there are garages with what appears to be quite a bit of excess capacity, like Battersea, Peckham, Holloway/King's Cross, Ash Grove, Lea Interchange, Henley Road, Westbourne Park Stamford Brook, Willesden Junction.... |
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Post by wirewiper on Jan 3, 2022 17:16:32 GMT
Active Travel should work really well in London. With those sorts of population densities it should be possible to most people have the facilities they need within walking distance, with the odd longer journey by public transport or cycle. Maybe car clubs if there really is a need to drive (although there again taxis could be an option). The only areas that are not so good are the leafy outer suburbs, but even these are peppered with local shopping parades that should be able to support a variety of shops and facilities catering to many everyday needs. And I don't buy the argument that cars are convenient in London. They have to be parked up somewhere, serviced and maintained, they cost a lot to own and run, and whenever they are taken out it is necessary to find parking at the destination - in London this can cost a small fortune. Sometimes in London it's just easier to walk, cycle or take the bus and, as with Zurich, it should be made even more so. Many people in London manage perfectly well without a car. I disagree with this, owning a car has been a lot easier than needing to fiddle around with public transport. Even with the congestion charge changes it's clear TfL have realised that making car travel into London difficult just stops people altogether rather than promoting public transport usage. The weekend restrictions are clearly aimed at getting people to drive into London before it kicks in and then leave after it's no longer applicable. I need to go to Westfield in a bit and hopefully get dinner on the way home, my options are walk to the 238 in the cold (or take a 62), the 62 and 238 are both every 15 minutes today. The other option is walk in the cold to the 262 which takes me around 10 minutes and that is also every 15 minutes. I can time myself leaving for the 62 so let's say wait time there is negligible. Worst case I could end up waiting 15 minutes in the cold for the 238, upon arrival at Stratford I'll need to walk over the bridge and into the shopping centre before coming out again and potentially waiting another 15 minutes for the 262 or 238. Worst case scenario again I end up waiting 15 minutes for both to turn up together. If I were to get a 262 I go to East Beckton and stop off at McDonald's to get some food. Bringing the food home is not an option on foot as the 10min walk in the cold will make my food cold, the other option being get off at Beckton Asda for the McDonald's there and get a 173 straight home, of which the 173 itself is also every 15 minutes today which could mean another 15 minute wait, whether this be in McDonald's or out in the cold, I'll be waiting and wasting time regardless. I'm not going to be able to do all of this in an hour, assuming two hours I've spent £3.10, could potentially be £4.65 if one of my bus wait times pushes me above the third hour. The flip side here is I get into my car, pelt it up the A406 and A12, most of which is in 5th gear so fuel burn is minimal. Looking on Google maps there's not any traffic that will slow me down. I go to Car Park B in Westfield which means I don't even have to go outside into the cold at any point, I don't need to spend too long in there so will make the £3 parking charge. On the way home I again use the A12 and A406 back, stopping off at the East Beckton McDonald's drive thru which is about a minute or two drive from my house. I can bring my food home nice and warm and have probably spent a lot less than I would have on the bus. I can't see where during all of that public transport will have been easier for me. The car in this case has saved me money being the cheaper option. The heating in my car keeps me warm and as that predominantly uses engine heat it doesn't cause additional fuel burn. I haven't waited for a bus at any point during this and have made all the calls of where I want to be when I want to be there. I've not been at the mercy of buses or regulation. Until this issue gets sorted out it's no surprise people use cars. And yet ... if you didn't have a car at all, you would still be able to do all that. Personally I might rearrange things a bit (have something to eat whilst at Westfield perhaps, or buy something to cook/heat up at home), but all of what you want to do would be perfectly achievable if you didn't have a car. |
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Post by WH241 on Jan 3, 2022 17:25:19 GMT
Active Travel should work really well in London. With those sorts of population densities it should be possible to most people have the facilities they need within walking distance, with the odd longer journey by public transport or cycle. Maybe car clubs if there really is a need to drive (although there again taxis could be an option). The only areas that are not so good are the leafy outer suburbs, but even these are peppered with local shopping parades that should be able to support a variety of shops and facilities catering to many everyday needs. And I don't buy the argument that cars are convenient in London. They have to be parked up somewhere, serviced and maintained, they cost a lot to own and run, and whenever they are taken out it is necessary to find parking at the destination - in London this can cost a small fortune. Sometimes in London it's just easier to walk, cycle or take the bus and, as with Zurich, it should be made even more so. Many people in London manage perfectly well without a car. I disagree with this, owning a car has been a lot easier than needing to fiddle around with public transport. Even with the congestion charge changes it's clear TfL have realised that making car travel into London difficult just stops people altogether rather than promoting public transport usage. The weekend restrictions are clearly aimed at getting people to drive into London before it kicks in and then leave after it's no longer applicable. I need to go to Westfield in a bit and hopefully get dinner on the way home, my options are walk to the 238 in the cold (or take a 62), the 62 and 238 are both every 15 minutes today. The other option is walk in the cold to the 262 which takes me around 10 minutes and that is also every 15 minutes. I can time myself leaving for the 62 so let's say wait time there is negligible. Worst case I could end up waiting 15 minutes in the cold for the 238, upon arrival at Stratford I'll need to walk over the bridge and into the shopping centre before coming out again and potentially waiting another 15 minutes for the 262 or 238. Worst case scenario again I end up waiting 15 minutes for both to turn up together. If I were to get a 262 I go to East Beckton and stop off at McDonald's to get some food. Bringing the food home is not an option on foot as the 10min walk in the cold will make my food cold, the other option being get off at Beckton Asda for the McDonald's there and get a 173 straight home, of which the 173 itself is also every 15 minutes today which could mean another 15 minute wait, whether this be in McDonald's or out in the cold, I'll be waiting and wasting time regardless. I'm not going to be able to do all of this in an hour, assuming two hours I've spent £3.10, could potentially be £4.65 if one of my bus wait times pushes me above the third hour. The flip side here is I get into my car, pelt it up the A406 and A12, most of which is in 5th gear so fuel burn is minimal. Looking on Google maps there's not any traffic that will slow me down. I go to Car Park B in Westfield which means I don't even have to go outside into the cold at any point, I don't need to spend too long in there so will make the £3 parking charge. On the way home I again use the A12 and A406 back, stopping off at the East Beckton McDonald's drive thru which is about a minute or two drive from my house. I can bring my food home nice and warm and have probably spent a lot less than I would have on the bus. I can't see where during all of that public transport will have been easier for me. The car in this case has saved me money being the cheaper option. The heating in my car keeps me warm and as that predominantly uses engine heat it doesn't cause additional fuel burn. I haven't waited for a bus at any point during this and have made all the calls of where I want to be when I want to be there. I've not been at the mercy of buses or regulation. Until this issue gets sorted out it's no surprise people use cars. Not just me having McDonalds for dinner tonight then 
I do get what you are saying about using a car. This afternoon I went from home to Beckton then onto Ilford then back to Beckton Tesco then home all within 2 hours with no parking charges (Free in Sainbury's Ilford 90 mins) and no charges at Beckton retail parks.
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Post by WH241 on Jan 3, 2022 17:27:57 GMT
The 425 going via Hackney Central would probably be a good shout. I know when Snoggle was with us he did mention that he thought the 238 being extended to Becontree Heath would have been very counterproductive for the reason you suggest. It'd have fired up a ridiculously high amount of untapped demand and rather than helping the 5, you'd have ended up with two routes that needed help themselves. Even the EL2 these days is very well used, whenever I'm waiting for a bus in the morning and I see an EL2 approaching I don't even bother to flag it down half the time as it's packed to the rafters so it's hard to imagine what the 238 would have looked like. But the fact that may have been an issue suggests how poor the bus links really are when you're starting to worry about routes becoming far too busy. Barking to Gants Hill is a missing link indeed, the EL1 or EL2 running there in the way you suggest would have been nice. Even now it's an option, but I'd probably not want the EL1 extended there because the crowd that builds up for the EL1 at Ilford is ridiculous and I don't think the EL1 would manage having more of a crowd to deal with. It's funny to think Barking to Ilford only has two direct routes liking the two towns, with the 366 providing a more indirect link. For two major town centres only 7 stops apart you'd think there'd be a lot more provision for travel between them. I hate how they removed the 179 from Barking In some ways something had to give Ilford Lane is hell on occasions so maybe the 179 was the best route to remove or should it have been the 169? |
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Post by WH241 on Jan 3, 2022 17:40:17 GMT
The 425 going via Hackney Central would probably be a good shout. I know when Snoggle was with us he did mention that he thought the 238 being extended to Becontree Heath would have been very counterproductive for the reason you suggest. It'd have fired up a ridiculously high amount of untapped demand and rather than helping the 5, you'd have ended up with two routes that needed help themselves. Even the EL2 these days is very well used, whenever I'm waiting for a bus in the morning and I see an EL2 approaching I don't even bother to flag it down half the time as it's packed to the rafters so it's hard to imagine what the 238 would have looked like. But the fact that may have been an issue suggests how poor the bus links really are when you're starting to worry about routes becoming far too busy. Barking to Gants Hill is a missing link indeed, the EL1 or EL2 running there in the way you suggest would have been nice. Even now it's an option, but I'd probably not want the EL1 extended there because the crowd that builds up for the EL1 at Ilford is ridiculous and I don't think the EL1 would manage having more of a crowd to deal with. It's funny to think Barking to Ilford only has two direct routes liking the two towns, with the 366 providing a more indirect link. For two major town centres only 7 stops apart you'd think there'd be a lot more provision for travel between them. If the 238 created a lot of untapped demand then surely that would be a good thing? I know the 238 is regularly overcrowded, but then couldn't you increase the frequency to a level like every 6-8 minutes if that would be the appropriate frequency level? The 238 hits some major traffic hot spots especially in the Green Street area I think you would get lots of bunching on a 6 - 8 min frequency. |
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Jan 3, 2022 17:42:40 GMT
I disagree with this, owning a car has been a lot easier than needing to fiddle around with public transport. Even with the congestion charge changes it's clear TfL have realised that making car travel into London difficult just stops people altogether rather than promoting public transport usage. The weekend restrictions are clearly aimed at getting people to drive into London before it kicks in and then leave after it's no longer applicable. I need to go to Westfield in a bit and hopefully get dinner on the way home, my options are walk to the 238 in the cold (or take a 62), the 62 and 238 are both every 15 minutes today. The other option is walk in the cold to the 262 which takes me around 10 minutes and that is also every 15 minutes. I can time myself leaving for the 62 so let's say wait time there is negligible. Worst case I could end up waiting 15 minutes in the cold for the 238, upon arrival at Stratford I'll need to walk over the bridge and into the shopping centre before coming out again and potentially waiting another 15 minutes for the 262 or 238. Worst case scenario again I end up waiting 15 minutes for both to turn up together. If I were to get a 262 I go to East Beckton and stop off at McDonald's to get some food. Bringing the food home is not an option on foot as the 10min walk in the cold will make my food cold, the other option being get off at Beckton Asda for the McDonald's there and get a 173 straight home, of which the 173 itself is also every 15 minutes today which could mean another 15 minute wait, whether this be in McDonald's or out in the cold, I'll be waiting and wasting time regardless. I'm not going to be able to do all of this in an hour, assuming two hours I've spent £3.10, could potentially be £4.65 if one of my bus wait times pushes me above the third hour. The flip side here is I get into my car, pelt it up the A406 and A12, most of which is in 5th gear so fuel burn is minimal. Looking on Google maps there's not any traffic that will slow me down. I go to Car Park B in Westfield which means I don't even have to go outside into the cold at any point, I don't need to spend too long in there so will make the £3 parking charge. On the way home I again use the A12 and A406 back, stopping off at the East Beckton McDonald's drive thru which is about a minute or two drive from my house. I can bring my food home nice and warm and have probably spent a lot less than I would have on the bus. I can't see where during all of that public transport will have been easier for me. The car in this case has saved me money being the cheaper option. The heating in my car keeps me warm and as that predominantly uses engine heat it doesn't cause additional fuel burn. I haven't waited for a bus at any point during this and have made all the calls of where I want to be when I want to be there. I've not been at the mercy of buses or regulation. Until this issue gets sorted out it's no surprise people use cars. And yet ... if you didn't have a car at all, you would still be able to do all that. Personally I might rearrange things a bit (have something to eat whilst at Westfield perhaps, or buy something to cook/heat up at home), but all of what you want to do would be perfectly achievable if you didn't have a car. However that has meant I have had to make sacrifices due to an inept public transport network when my car gives me far more freedoms. Why should I work my life around public transport when really to get people onto public transport it should be the other way around. I do not plan to curb my life to work around using a bus and other modes of public transport and I doubt anyone else that already owns are car would voluntarily do so either. I'm paying for it so why can't I use it, even if it ends up working out cheaper. |
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