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Post by route53 on Apr 17, 2022 14:48:45 GMT
A latest Murky Depths article regarding the new Barking Riverside pier station mentions how Thamesmead is once again being overlooked www.fromthemurkydepths.co.uk/2022/04/13/barking-thames-clippers-extension-imminent-as-thamesmead-looks-on/With no sign of a DLR extension anytime soon and with the Goblin Overground line extension from Barking Riverside ruled out more or less right from the start, something has to be done bus wise to better serve Thamesmead. It has good local connections to Bexleyheath, Woolwich and North Greenwich, and it did have two trunk routes (177 and 180) however sadly it’s useful link to Lewisham is coming to an end with yet another link to North Greenwich (eyeroll) the 177 though useful to Greenwich, New Cross and Peckham will be inevitably rammed, but it doesn’t have a direct link to Central London. Many of the comments in the article are saying the same thing: Bring back the X53, this might be an unpopular option on this forum but unless they extend the DLR soon I can’t see another option, not everyone will use CrossRail from Abbey Wood/Woolwich and not everyone from Thamesmead now uses the Jubilee line from North Greenwich, plus the 53/X53for many goes to places neither of the above mentioned rail links serves. Thamesmead must be the largest district in London that has no direct rail link it’s worth noting. |
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Post by LondonNorthern on Apr 17, 2022 15:05:59 GMT
A latest Murky Depths article regarding the new Barking Riverside pier station mentions how Thamesmead is once again being overlooked www.fromthemurkydepths.co.uk/2022/04/13/barking-thames-clippers-extension-imminent-as-thamesmead-looks-on/With no sign of a DLR extension anytime soon and with the Goblin Overground line extension from Barking Riverside ruled out more or less right from the start, something has to be done bus wise to better serve Thamesmead. It has good local connections to Bexleyheath, Woolwich and North Greenwich, and it did have two trunk routes (177 and 180) however sadly it’s useful link to Lewisham is coming to an end with yet another link to North Greenwich (eyeroll) the 177 though useful to Greenwich, New Cross and Peckham will be inevitably rammed, but it doesn’t have a direct link to Central London. Many of the comments in the article are saying the same thing: Bring back the X53, this might be an unpopular option on this forum but unless they extend the DLR soon I can’t see another option, not everyone will use CrossRail from Abbey Wood/Woolwich and not everyone from Thamesmead now uses the Jubilee line from North Greenwich, plus the 53/X53for many goes to places neither of the above mentioned rail links serves. Thamesmead must be the largest district in London that has no direct rail link it’s worth noting. Camberwell could also be a contender although Denmark Hill is nearby. A GOBLIN extension to Thamesmead I imagine would be extremely useful & would be good if it went further to Abbey Wood to allow interchange for Crossrail. Wasn’t there also an X177 with the X53? |
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Post by greenboy on Apr 17, 2022 15:08:20 GMT
A Goblin extension would be ideal but I suspect having Crossrail nearby is going to be seen as sufficient for the foreseeable future.
I think any DLR extension would be swamped by the demand.
Bus links to Welling and Eltham would be useful as well as Lewisham, and the current 180 only serves the edge of Thamesmead and goes the long way via Greenwich.
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Post by LondonNorthern on Apr 17, 2022 15:13:08 GMT
A Goblin extension would be ideal but I suspect having Crossrail nearby is going to be seen as sufficient for the foreseeable future. I think any DLR extension would be swamped by the demand. Bus links to Welling and Eltham would be useful as well as Lewisham, and the current 180 only serves the edge of Thamesmead and goes the long way via Greenwich. Would Westfield would be a pull for Thamesmead residents? (Obviously with a change at Canning Town) I’d imagine maybe although Bluewater does seem more likely for residents to perhaps go to but I reckon it could potentially be a fairly popular extension with residents able to interchange at Canning Town to reach C London? A few local members on here have noted that the DLR is already at capacity, even during COVID, so I wonder how it would cope with an extension. |
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Post by route53 on Apr 17, 2022 15:14:20 GMT
A latest Murky Depths article regarding the new Barking Riverside pier station mentions how Thamesmead is once again being overlooked www.fromthemurkydepths.co.uk/2022/04/13/barking-thames-clippers-extension-imminent-as-thamesmead-looks-on/With no sign of a DLR extension anytime soon and with the Goblin Overground line extension from Barking Riverside ruled out more or less right from the start, something has to be done bus wise to better serve Thamesmead. It has good local connections to Bexleyheath, Woolwich and North Greenwich, and it did have two trunk routes (177 and 180) however sadly it’s useful link to Lewisham is coming to an end with yet another link to North Greenwich (eyeroll) the 177 though useful to Greenwich, New Cross and Peckham will be inevitably rammed, but it doesn’t have a direct link to Central London. Many of the comments in the article are saying the same thing: Bring back the X53, this might be an unpopular option on this forum but unless they extend the DLR soon I can’t see another option, not everyone will use CrossRail from Abbey Wood/Woolwich and not everyone from Thamesmead now uses the Jubilee line from North Greenwich, plus the 53/X53for many goes to places neither of the above mentioned rail links serves. Thamesmead must be the largest district in London that has no direct rail link it’s worth noting. Camberwell could also be a contender although Denmark Hill is nearby. A GOBLIN extension to Thamesmead I imagine would be extremely useful & would be good if it went further to Abbey Wood to allow interchange for Crossrail. Wasn’t there also an X177 with the X53? The Goblin extension to Thamesmead was sadly ruled out as the new Barking Riverside station and the way it was built doesn’t allow for extension without demolition, it would have been great as it would have connected Thamesmead with East and North London. Camberwell is another contender but it isn’t far from Denmark Hill, also Thamesmead is a much larger area stretching from Woolwich/Plumstead down to Erith along the riverside. There were two express routes; the 177E* and 53X however they were merged into the X53 in 1993, there was also a X72 but this was merged with the 272 into the 472 in 1998 just before the Jubilee line extension opening the following year *the E in the 177E stood for Express of course. |
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Apr 17, 2022 15:34:44 GMT
Camberwell could also be a contender although Denmark Hill is nearby. A GOBLIN extension to Thamesmead I imagine would be extremely useful & would be good if it went further to Abbey Wood to allow interchange for Crossrail. Wasn’t there also an X177 with the X53? The Goblin extension to Thamesmead was sadly ruled out as the new Barking Riverside station and the way it was built doesn’t allow for extension without demolition, it would have been great as it would have connected Thamesmead with East and North London. Camberwell is another contender but it isn’t far from Denmark Hill, also Thamesmead is a much larger area stretching from Woolwich/Plumstead down to Erith along the riverside. There were two express routes; the 177E* and 53X however they were merged into the X53 in 1993, there was also a X72 but this was merged with the 272 into the 472 in 1998 just before the Jubilee line extension opening the following year *the E in the 177E stood for Express of course. Not entirely correct, the extension hasn't been ruled out. The station will need demolition, however the tracks have been placed allowing for a tunnelled extension and space is available for Barking Riverside to be repositioned underground if necessary. Obviously cost wise this is a huge hurdle to justify. |
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Post by vjaska on Apr 17, 2022 15:53:41 GMT
The Goblin extension to Thamesmead was sadly ruled out as the new Barking Riverside station and the way it was built doesn’t allow for extension without demolition, it would have been great as it would have connected Thamesmead with East and North London. Camberwell is another contender but it isn’t far from Denmark Hill, also Thamesmead is a much larger area stretching from Woolwich/Plumstead down to Erith along the riverside. There were two express routes; the 177E* and 53X however they were merged into the X53 in 1993, there was also a X72 but this was merged with the 272 into the 472 in 1998 just before the Jubilee line extension opening the following year *the E in the 177E stood for Express of course. Not entirely correct, the extension hasn't been ruled out. The station will need demolition, however the tracks have been placed allowing for a tunnelled extension and space is available for Barking Riverside to be repositioned underground if necessary. Obviously cost wise this is a huge hurdle to justify. Sounds like it’s all being done back to front which sums up this country in terms of transport - wouldn’t it simply make sense to build Barking Riverside with the intention of further extending the GOBLIN to Thamesmead regardless of whether it happens or not so that it actually doesn’t need to be repositioned and demolished so an extension occurs? |
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Post by vjaska on Apr 17, 2022 16:07:04 GMT
A latest Murky Depths article regarding the new Barking Riverside pier station mentions how Thamesmead is once again being overlooked www.fromthemurkydepths.co.uk/2022/04/13/barking-thames-clippers-extension-imminent-as-thamesmead-looks-on/With no sign of a DLR extension anytime soon and with the Goblin Overground line extension from Barking Riverside ruled out more or less right from the start, something has to be done bus wise to better serve Thamesmead. It has good local connections to Bexleyheath, Woolwich and North Greenwich, and it did have two trunk routes (177 and 180) however sadly it’s useful link to Lewisham is coming to an end with yet another link to North Greenwich (eyeroll) the 177 though useful to Greenwich, New Cross and Peckham will be inevitably rammed, but it doesn’t have a direct link to Central London. Many of the comments in the article are saying the same thing: Bring back the X53, this might be an unpopular option on this forum but unless they extend the DLR soon I can’t see another option, not everyone will use CrossRail from Abbey Wood/Woolwich and not everyone from Thamesmead now uses the Jubilee line from North Greenwich, plus the 53/X53for many goes to places neither of the above mentioned rail links serves. Thamesmead must be the largest district in London that has no direct rail link it’s worth noting. As your local, how many people actually use the 180 from the part of Thamesmead to Lewisham because the many times I’ve rode the route (I’m not local but the routes in that area interested me for many years to at least have fairly frequent rides), most from my observations tend to go no further than Woolwich Road where the peninsula retail park is. I still think leaving the 177 on it’s own on that corridor is wrong as you said but I’d find it surprising if many 180 passengers go to Lewisham by bus or even want a bus to Central London when Abbey Wood is nearby and is soon to get Crossrail as well. The only way for the issue to be solved now is an express bus from Thamesmead providing there is demand given I mentioned Abbey Wood Station is nearby and probably covers the Central London link (X53 won’t solve that as you mentioned due to not serving the area so something like a X177) because sadly, it’s likely Thamesmead won’t get any DLR/National Rail/Overground station anytime soon |
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Post by snowman on Apr 17, 2022 16:17:58 GMT
What is so special about Thamesmead (perhaps the author lives there?)
Thamesmead, like many big public housing estates in 25 years after WW2 was built away from stations, think places like Roehampton, Brentford Dock plus many others.
It was assumed the people that lived in these sort of neighbourhoods could make do with buses, as unlikely to be commuting (it was sign of the times that if you lived in public housing, weren’t likely to be taking on a mortgage which required travelling further to work
Perhaps someone can explain to me why it is thought that Thamesmead needs a station, but same argument isn’t used for say Roehampton
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Post by route53 on Apr 17, 2022 16:18:36 GMT
A latest Murky Depths article regarding the new Barking Riverside pier station mentions how Thamesmead is once again being overlooked www.fromthemurkydepths.co.uk/2022/04/13/barking-thames-clippers-extension-imminent-as-thamesmead-looks-on/With no sign of a DLR extension anytime soon and with the Goblin Overground line extension from Barking Riverside ruled out more or less right from the start, something has to be done bus wise to better serve Thamesmead. It has good local connections to Bexleyheath, Woolwich and North Greenwich, and it did have two trunk routes (177 and 180) however sadly it’s useful link to Lewisham is coming to an end with yet another link to North Greenwich (eyeroll) the 177 though useful to Greenwich, New Cross and Peckham will be inevitably rammed, but it doesn’t have a direct link to Central London. Many of the comments in the article are saying the same thing: Bring back the X53, this might be an unpopular option on this forum but unless they extend the DLR soon I can’t see another option, not everyone will use CrossRail from Abbey Wood/Woolwich and not everyone from Thamesmead now uses the Jubilee line from North Greenwich, plus the 53/X53for many goes to places neither of the above mentioned rail links serves. Thamesmead must be the largest district in London that has no direct rail link it’s worth noting. As your local, how many people actually use the 180 from the part of Thamesmead to Lewisham because the many times I’ve rode the route (I’m not local but the routes in that area interested me for many years to at least have fairly frequent rides), most from my observations tend to go no further than Woolwich Road where the peninsula retail park is. I still think leaving the 177 on it’s own on that corridor is wrong as you said but I’d find it surprising if many 180 passengers go to Lewisham by bus or even want a bus to Central London when Abbey Wood is nearby and is soon to get Crossrail as well. The only way for the issue to be solved now is an express bus from Thamesmead providing there is demand given I mentioned Abbey Wood Station is nearby and probably covers the Central London link (X53 won’t solve that as you mentioned due to not serving the area so something like a X177) because sadly, it’s likely Thamesmead won’t get any DLR/National Rail/Overground station anytime soon As I said, not everyone wants to use CrossRail and as I also said, CrossRail and the 53 don’t directly parallel one another, the 53 serves places CrossRail won’t reach, an X177 would be better if it went to Central London but the 177 only goes to Peckham, plus the 177 directly parallels the Greenwich line for much of it’s route. |
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Post by vjaska on Apr 17, 2022 16:20:21 GMT
What is so special about Thamesmead (perhaps the author lives there?) Thamesmead, like many big public housing estates in 25 years after WW2 was built away from stations, think places like Roehampton, Brentford Dock plus many others. It was assumed the people that lived in these sort of neighbourhoods could make do with buses, as unlikely to be commuting (it was sign of the times that if you lived in public housing, weren’t likely to be taking on a mortgage which required travelling further to work Perhaps someone can explain to me why it is thought that Thamesmead needs a station, but same argument isn’t used for say Roehampton Who says Roehampton doesn’t? |
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Post by route53 on Apr 17, 2022 16:24:51 GMT
What is so special about Thamesmead (perhaps the author lives there?) Thamesmead, like many big public housing estates in 25 years after WW2 was built away from stations, think places like Roehampton, Brentford Dock plus many others. It was assumed the people that lived in these sort of neighbourhoods could make do with buses, as unlikely to be commuting (it was sign of the times that if you lived in public housing, weren’t likely to be taking on a mortgage which required travelling further to work Perhaps someone can explain to me why it is thought that Thamesmead needs a station, but same argument isn’t used for say Roehampton I don’t live in Thamesmead, ever since it was built it’s been promised a rail link, from its own station between Abbey Wood & Plumstead to having a station served by a proposed Fleet line extension, I’m not familiar with Brentford Dock or Roehampton to say what that area needs |
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Post by vjaska on Apr 17, 2022 16:30:01 GMT
As your local, how many people actually use the 180 from the part of Thamesmead to Lewisham because the many times I’ve rode the route (I’m not local but the routes in that area interested me for many years to at least have fairly frequent rides), most from my observations tend to go no further than Woolwich Road where the peninsula retail park is. I still think leaving the 177 on it’s own on that corridor is wrong as you said but I’d find it surprising if many 180 passengers go to Lewisham by bus or even want a bus to Central London when Abbey Wood is nearby and is soon to get Crossrail as well. The only way for the issue to be solved now is an express bus from Thamesmead providing there is demand given I mentioned Abbey Wood Station is nearby and probably covers the Central London link (X53 won’t solve that as you mentioned due to not serving the area so something like a X177) because sadly, it’s likely Thamesmead won’t get any DLR/National Rail/Overground station anytime soon As I said, not everyone wants to use CrossRail and as I also said, CrossRail and the 53 don’t directly parallel one another, the 53 serves places CrossRail won’t reach, an X177 would be better if it went to Central London but the 177 only goes to Peckham, plus the 177 directly parallels the Greenwich line for much of it’s route. I’m aware of what you said however you haven’t really answered anything I wrote back particularly why people don’t want to use Crossrail despite arguing for a station of some sorts in Thamesmead which can look like a contradiction. I’m also bemused at the mention of the 53 & Crossrail not paralleling each other as I made no mention of it as I thought it was irrelevant to the discussion of but hey ho. The 177 only going to Peckham shouldn’t have an impact on anything - if there is actual demand for a X177 from Thamesmead to Central London, it should be able to live alongside the current 177 just like the X68 does alongside the 68 & 468. A X177 doesn’t also have to follow the entire 177 routing as the whole point is to get Thamesmead residents to Central London as quickly as possible - the X68 between Elephant & Tulse Hill runs via Brixton rather than the 68 & 468 routing via Camberwell to save time |
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Post by route53 on Apr 17, 2022 16:49:43 GMT
As I said, not everyone wants to use CrossRail and as I also said, CrossRail and the 53 don’t directly parallel one another, the 53 serves places CrossRail won’t reach, an X177 would be better if it went to Central London but the 177 only goes to Peckham, plus the 177 directly parallels the Greenwich line for much of it’s route. I’m aware of what you said however you haven’t really answered anything I wrote back particularly why people don’t want to use Crossrail despite arguing for a station of some sorts in Thamesmead which can look like a contradiction. I’m also bemused at the mention of the 53 & Crossrail not paralleling each other as I made no mention of it as I thought it was irrelevant to the discussion of but hey ho. The 177 only going to Peckham shouldn’t have an impact on anything - if there is actual demand for a X177 from Thamesmead to Central London, it should be able to live alongside the current 177 just like the X68 does alongside the 68 & 468. A X177 doesn’t also have to follow the entire 177 routing as the whole point is to get Thamesmead residents to Central London as quickly as possible - the X68 between Elephant & Tulse Hill runs via Brixton rather than the 68 & 468 routing via Camberwell to save time The old X53 went to Thamesmead that’s why in suggested it, I wouldn’t be adverse to a X177 however there is an argument that such a route would parallel the Greenwich Line, unless it was non stop from Woolwich to Elephant or Peckham then onto Central London. The X68 is in place because the 68/468 doesn’t parallel any rail routes along that corridor, and didn’t the TfL study into express bus routes say that express routes should serve corridors that don’t parallel a rail line? I know you didn’t bring up the 53/CrossRail parallelling one another, I brought that up to justify why it could potentially work, I admit it was a stretch to say that Thamesmead residents won’t use CrossRail, of course they will. |
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Post by twobellstogo on Apr 17, 2022 16:59:13 GMT
Biggest problem as I see it is Thamesmead north of the Spine Road (the loop working around Crossway/Bentham Road. South of the Spine Road is close to Abbey Wood station for Lizzy Line/SE trains, West Thamesmead (Broadwaters - where the 244 and 380 go) is close to the new Woolwich station and also Plumstead.
The trouble really is the the Goblin line is effectively ruled out in probably all of our lifetimes now, and the Waterfront Transit bus/tram line is also now impossible because of building work : so that just leaves the DLR - and with that you potentially are robbing Beckton of part of its current service, which will not be popular.
DLR is, however, the only way I can even remotely see Thamesmead getting trains in anything like short order.
The positioning of the new Barking Reach pier also seems to make serving Thamesmead from that in the future very difficult.
Lots of problems, and no really effective solutions apart possibly from the DLR.
Bus services (and let’s assume post changes, so with extended 472 etc) are ok from the loop - most obvious connections are catered for (Woolwich, Abbey Wood, Erith, Bexleyheath all served, and served well). Major gap is Thamesmead to the west side of Bexley borough.
And finally, the dear old 180 - in my experience, from the east it mainly empties at Woolwich and then refills with Charlton/Greenwich bound passengers. I would guess that end to end passengers may marginally increase in its new form of Erith to North Greenwich, but not by a huge amount. In recent years, of the 177/180 pairing, the 177 is much the stronger partner.
Fact fans : with these changes it will mean that only Woolwich to Charlton will remain from the original 180 when it started.
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