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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Apr 17, 2022 17:22:44 GMT
Biggest problem as I see it is Thamesmead north of the Spine Road (the loop working around Crossway/Bentham Road. South of the Spine Road is close to Abbey Wood station for Lizzy Line/SE trains, West Thamesmead (Broadwaters - where the 244 and 380 go) is close to the new Woolwich station and also Plumstead. The trouble really is the the Goblin line is effectively ruled out in probably all of our lifetimes now, and the Waterfront Transit bus/tram line is also now impossible because of building work : so that just leaves the DLR - and with that you potentially are robbing Beckton of part of its current service, which will not be popular. DLR is, however, the only way I can even remotely see Thamesmead getting trains in anything like short order. The positioning of the new Barking Reach pier also seems to make serving Thamesmead from that in the future very difficult. Lots of problems, and no really effective solutions apart possibly from the DLR. Bus services (and let’s assume post changes, so with extended 472 etc) are ok from the loop - most obvious connections are catered for (Woolwich, Abbey Wood, Erith, Bexleyheath all served, and served well). Major gap is Thamesmead to the west side of Bexley borough. And finally, the dear old 180 - in my experience, from the east it mainly empties at Woolwich and then refills with Charlton/Greenwich bound passengers. I would guess that end to end passengers may marginally increase in its new form of Erith to North Greenwich, but not by a huge amount. In recent years, of the 177/180 pairing, the 177 is much the stronger partner. Fact fans : with these changes it will mean that only Woolwich to Charlton will remain from the original 180 when it started. I do question sometimes how useful the DLR will actually be going to Thamesmead. It's something, but it's not what's going to be ideal. It'll be a branch off an already relatively infrequent branch. The options are to either double the service down the Beckton branch or half the service to Beckton. Doubling the service would be fine heading towards Thamesmead, although probably not as much heading the other way as I believe the line into Central London is pretty much at capacity. There'd need to be mass changes at somewhere like Canning Town and I'm not sure if the DLR service into Central London, or even the Jubilee Line can take that additional strain. Likewise even the Overground, there'd need to be mass change at Barking as I don't think many from Thamesmead will want to head to Tottenham. The Elizabeth Line going to Thamesmead sounds like the best scenario. It'd probably not have huge impacts on already existing services, along with providing the residents of Thamesmead a link towards Central London along with points on the way such as Custom House or Canary Wharf to change for other lines should they need to go elsewhere. |
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Post by twobellstogo on Apr 17, 2022 17:26:30 GMT
The Elizabeth Line going to Thamesmead sounds like the best scenario. It'd probably not have huge impacts on already existing services, along with providing the residents of Thamesmead a link towards Central London along with points on the way such as Custom House or Canary Wharf to change for other lines should they need to go elsewhere. Unfortunately the Lizzy line points in utterly the wrong direction to be able to do that effectively : there would have to be a humongous (and probably impossible) bend needed to get to Thamesmead effectively, and that’s before you get to the demolition that would be needed in East Thamesmead. As I see it, a non starter I’m afraid. |
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Post by vjaska on Apr 17, 2022 18:03:49 GMT
I’m aware of what you said however you haven’t really answered anything I wrote back particularly why people don’t want to use Crossrail despite arguing for a station of some sorts in Thamesmead which can look like a contradiction. I’m also bemused at the mention of the 53 & Crossrail not paralleling each other as I made no mention of it as I thought it was irrelevant to the discussion of but hey ho. The 177 only going to Peckham shouldn’t have an impact on anything - if there is actual demand for a X177 from Thamesmead to Central London, it should be able to live alongside the current 177 just like the X68 does alongside the 68 & 468. A X177 doesn’t also have to follow the entire 177 routing as the whole point is to get Thamesmead residents to Central London as quickly as possible - the X68 between Elephant & Tulse Hill runs via Brixton rather than the 68 & 468 routing via Camberwell to save time The old X53 went to Thamesmead that’s why in suggested it, I wouldn’t be adverse to a X177 however there is an argument that such a route would parallel the Greenwich Line, unless it was non stop from Woolwich to Elephant or Peckham then onto Central London. The X68 is in place because the 68/468 doesn’t parallel any rail routes along that corridor, and didn’t the TfL study into express bus routes say that express routes should serve corridors that don’t parallel a rail line? I know you didn’t bring up the 53/CrossRail parallelling one another, I brought that up to justify why it could potentially work, I admit it was a stretch to say that Thamesmead residents won’t use CrossRail, of course they will. Again I’m aware of the X68 & why it exists but it’s literally for the benefit of Upper Norwood which has no rail links hence why the express section starts & ends in the south at West Norwood because along the express section has sufficient links into Central London via train, bus or both - here, we’re linking a place like Thamesmead with a similar situation to Upper Norwood. Essentially, the X177 could run a standard service from Thamesmead via the 301 or 472 to Woolwich, then express as you say to a certain point and then a limited stop service into Central London. Thanks for clarifying other points 😉 |
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Post by ADH45258 on Apr 17, 2022 18:46:08 GMT
Biggest problem as I see it is Thamesmead north of the Spine Road (the loop working around Crossway/Bentham Road. South of the Spine Road is close to Abbey Wood station for Lizzy Line/SE trains, West Thamesmead (Broadwaters - where the 244 and 380 go) is close to the new Woolwich station and also Plumstead. The trouble really is the the Goblin line is effectively ruled out in probably all of our lifetimes now, and the Waterfront Transit bus/tram line is also now impossible because of building work : so that just leaves the DLR - and with that you potentially are robbing Beckton of part of its current service, which will not be popular. DLR is, however, the only way I can even remotely see Thamesmead getting trains in anything like short order. The positioning of the new Barking Reach pier also seems to make serving Thamesmead from that in the future very difficult. Lots of problems, and no really effective solutions apart possibly from the DLR. Bus services (and let’s assume post changes, so with extended 472 etc) are ok from the loop - most obvious connections are catered for (Woolwich, Abbey Wood, Erith, Bexleyheath all served, and served well). Major gap is Thamesmead to the west side of Bexley borough. And finally, the dear old 180 - in my experience, from the east it mainly empties at Woolwich and then refills with Charlton/Greenwich bound passengers. I would guess that end to end passengers may marginally increase in its new form of Erith to North Greenwich, but not by a huge amount. In recent years, of the 177/180 pairing, the 177 is much the stronger partner. Fact fans : with these changes it will mean that only Woolwich to Charlton will remain from the original 180 when it started. I do question sometimes how useful the DLR will actually be going to Thamesmead. It's something, but it's not what's going to be ideal. It'll be a branch off an already relatively infrequent branch. The options are to either double the service down the Beckton branch or half the service to Beckton. Doubling the service would be fine heading towards Thamesmead, although probably not as much heading the other way as I believe the line into Central London is pretty much at capacity. There'd need to be mass changes at somewhere like Canning Town and I'm not sure if the DLR service into Central London, or even the Jubilee Line can take that additional strain. Likewise even the Overground, there'd need to be mass change at Barking as I don't think many from Thamesmead will want to head to Tottenham. The Elizabeth Line going to Thamesmead sounds like the best scenario. It'd probably not have huge impacts on already existing services, along with providing the residents of Thamesmead a link towards Central London along with points on the way such as Custom House or Canary Wharf to change for other lines should they need to go elsewhere. I think the issue with Thamesmead is that the housing is quite spread out over a large residential area. If a station was built near the bus terminus for example, many passengers would still need to take a bus there, and then might be easier to simply go to Abbey Wood instead. The DLR makes more sense as it would likely have several stations to cover the different parts of Thamesmead, with stations generally closer together on the network, shorter platforms and tighter curves of track possible. However, I'm not sure the Beckton branch is the best option to extend, partly due to the potential service levels as you mention, plus the cost to build another river crossing. A more logical alternative might be to extend/reroute to Woolwich branch of the DLR. The current tunnel would be diverted just before reaching Woolwich Arsenal (with the station relocated to the new alignment), then emerging to the surface near Plumstead Station, and perhaps using the part of the Ridgeway footpath for the trackbed. The with various options of routeing the line to serve most of Thamesmead. Woolwich would be the main interchange rather than Abbey Wood, with a new DLR station connected to both the National Rail and Crossrail stations. This would also be less problematic in terms of frequency, keeping the same service level that the Woolwich Arsenal branch already has - plus the Elizabeth Line would take some passengers away from the DLR to/from Woolwich. |
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Post by rift on Apr 17, 2022 18:48:16 GMT
The old X53 went to Thamesmead that’s why in suggested it, I wouldn’t be adverse to a X177 however there is an argument that such a route would parallel the Greenwich Line, unless it was non stop from Woolwich to Elephant or Peckham then onto Central London. The X68 is in place because the 68/468 doesn’t parallel any rail routes along that corridor, and didn’t the TfL study into express bus routes say that express routes should serve corridors that don’t parallel a rail line? I know you didn’t bring up the 53/CrossRail parallelling one another, I brought that up to justify why it could potentially work, I admit it was a stretch to say that Thamesmead residents won’t use CrossRail, of course they will. Again I’m aware of the X68 & why it exists but it’s literally for the benefit of Upper Norwood which has no rail links hence why the express section starts & ends in the south at West Norwood because along the express section has sufficient links into Central London via train, bus or both - here, we’re linking a place like Thamesmead with a similar situation to Upper Norwood. Essentially, the X177 could run a standard service from Thamesmead via the 301 or 472 to Woolwich, then express as you say to a certain point and then a limited stop service into Central London. Thanks for clarifying other points 😉 If an express 177 was introduced, then I feel like it would be a stopping service from Thamesmead to the Abbey Estate, limited stop from Plumstead Corner to Greenwich, then non-stop to Central London. |
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Post by twobellstogo on Apr 17, 2022 18:57:33 GMT
A more logical alternative might be to extend/reroute to Woolwich branch of the DLR. The current tunnel would be diverted just before reaching Woolwich Arsenal (with the station relocated to the new alignment), then emerging to the surface near Plumstead Station, and perhaps using the part of the Ridgeway footpath for the trackbed. The with various options of routeing the line to serve most of Thamesmead. Woolwich would be the main interchange rather than Abbey Wood, with a new DLR station connected to both the National Rail and Crossrail stations. This would also be less problematic in terms of frequency, keeping the same service level that the Woolwich Arsenal branch already has - plus the Elizabeth Line would take some passengers away from the DLR to/from Woolwich. No - for a whole host of reasons, I’m afraid. It’s not only the DLR station that would need rebuilding, so would the surface station. Even then, the only way to get the DLR pointing in the right direction for Thamesmead would almost certainly mean missing out King George V too : the bends required otherwise would be prohibitive even for the DLR. The Beckton branch is the only reasonable way as I see it. |
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Post by greenboy on Apr 17, 2022 19:21:44 GMT
I do question sometimes how useful the DLR will actually be going to Thamesmead. It's something, but it's not what's going to be ideal. It'll be a branch off an already relatively infrequent branch. The options are to either double the service down the Beckton branch or half the service to Beckton. Doubling the service would be fine heading towards Thamesmead, although probably not as much heading the other way as I believe the line into Central London is pretty much at capacity. There'd need to be mass changes at somewhere like Canning Town and I'm not sure if the DLR service into Central London, or even the Jubilee Line can take that additional strain. Likewise even the Overground, there'd need to be mass change at Barking as I don't think many from Thamesmead will want to head to Tottenham. The Elizabeth Line going to Thamesmead sounds like the best scenario. It'd probably not have huge impacts on already existing services, along with providing the residents of Thamesmead a link towards Central London along with points on the way such as Custom House or Canary Wharf to change for other lines should they need to go elsewhere. I think the issue with Thamesmead is that the housing is quite spread out over a large residential area. If a station was built near the bus terminus for example, many passengers would still need to take a bus there, and then might be easier to simply go to Abbey Wood instead. The DLR makes more sense as it would likely have several stations to cover the different parts of Thamesmead, with stations generally closer together on the network, shorter platforms and tighter curves of track possible. However, I'm not sure the Beckton branch is the best option to extend, partly due to the potential service levels as you mention, plus the cost to build another river crossing. A more logical alternative might be to extend/reroute to Woolwich branch of the DLR. The current tunnel would be diverted just before reaching Woolwich Arsenal (with the station relocated to the new alignment), then emerging to the surface near Plumstead Station, and perhaps using the part of the Ridgeway footpath for the trackbed. The with various options of routeing the line to serve most of Thamesmead. Woolwich would be the main interchange rather than Abbey Wood, with a new DLR station connected to both the National Rail and Crossrail stations. This would also be less problematic in terms of frequency, keeping the same service level that the Woolwich Arsenal branch already has - plus the Elizabeth Line would take some passengers away from the DLR to/from Woolwich. That's a good point that if there was a station in Thamesmead many residents would still have to get a bus to it and so it wouldn't be much different to getting a bus to Abbey Wood. I don't think a DLR extension is viable as it's likely to get overwhelmed. |
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Post by buspete on Apr 17, 2022 19:45:32 GMT
Bus service are a lot better today than they used to be, just over 30 years ago there were only 2bph to Bexleyheath with the country bus route 486, today there is the 229, 301, 401 & B11 which offer 19bph.
The Thamesmead loop was served by the 272 I think there was only 6bph, so on the loop it run every 20 minutes* Also there was the bus 198/A that was a strange route and only run every 30 minutes and had a different route on a Saturday than it did on a weekday. Today there is the 177, 244, 301 & 472 providing 27bph.
Also wasn’t there a 272 express that run infrequently to Woolwich on a Saturday?
*272 might have been more frequent than that? But seem to remember it having 6bph.
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Post by greenboy on Apr 17, 2022 20:07:37 GMT
Bus service are a lot better today than they used to be, just over 30 years ago there were only 2bph to Bexleyheath with the country bus route 486, today there is the 229, 301, 401 & B11 which offer 19bph. The Thamesmead loop was served by the 272 I think there was only 6bph, so on the loop it run every 20 minutes* Also there was the bus 198/A that was a strange route and only run every 30 minutes and had a different route on a Saturday than it did on a weekday. Today there is the 177, 244, 301 & 472 providing 27bph. Also wasn’t there a 272 express that run infrequently to Woolwich on a Saturday? *272 might have been more frequent than that? But seem to remember it having 6bph. 472 Express on Saturdays with a PVR of 1. |
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Post by cl54 on Apr 17, 2022 20:36:40 GMT
What is so special about Thamesmead (perhaps the author lives there?) Thamesmead, like many big public housing estates in 25 years after WW2 was built away from stations, think places like Roehampton, Brentford Dock plus many others. It was assumed the people that lived in these sort of neighbourhoods could make do with buses, as unlikely to be commuting (it was sign of the times that if you lived in public housing, weren’t likely to be taking on a mortgage which required travelling further to work Perhaps someone can explain to me why it is thought that Thamesmead needs a station, but same argument isn’t used for say Roehampton Much of the original housing in Thamesmead has been demolished and is being replaced with much higher quality homes with a wider appeal. The new developments are being built by housing associations with "affordable" rents shared ownership amongst the options. |
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Post by bus12451 on Apr 17, 2022 21:31:53 GMT
Camberwell could also be a contender although Denmark Hill is nearby. A GOBLIN extension to Thamesmead I imagine would be extremely useful & would be good if it went further to Abbey Wood to allow interchange for Crossrail. Wasn’t there also an X177 with the X53? The Goblin extension to Thamesmead was sadly ruled out as the new Barking Riverside station and the way it was built doesn’t allow for extension without demolition, it would have been great as it would have connected Thamesmead with East and North London. Camberwell is another contender but it isn’t far from Denmark Hill, also Thamesmead is a much larger area stretching from Woolwich/Plumstead down to Erith along the riverside. There were two express routes; the 177E* and 53X however they were merged into the X53 in 1993, there was also a X72 but this was merged with the 272 into the 472 in 1998 just before the Jubilee line extension opening the following year *the E in the 177E stood for Express of course. As far as I'm aware Barking Riverside station was designed to be elevated above ground to avoid a steep gradient. In theory the Goblin could still be extended without demolishing the new station if TfL/Network Rail were to acquire the land at the southern part of River Road to construct a tunnel towards Thamesmead. Thamesmead will at least benefit from faster journeys to Plumstead and Woolwich on the soon-to-be rerouted 472 via Western Way. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2022 22:04:47 GMT
A Goblin extension would be ideal but I suspect having Crossrail nearby is going to be seen as sufficient for the foreseeable future. I think any DLR extension would be swamped by the demand. Bus links to Welling and Eltham would be useful as well as Lewisham, and the current 180 only serves the edge of Thamesmead and goes the long way via Greenwich. Would Westfield would be a pull for Thamesmead residents? (Obviously with a change at Canning Town) I’d imagine maybe although Bluewater does seem more likely for residents to perhaps go to but I reckon it could potentially be a fairly popular extension with residents able to interchange at Canning Town to reach C London? A few local members on here have noted that the DLR is already at capacity, even during COVID, so I wonder how it would cope with an extension. DLR from Woolwich is often full from Woolwich. It’s currently not helped by SE trains and Thameslink still not running pre covid services. Crossrail will help massively. I think Crossrail should be 24/7 , and yes an X53 would also be a bonus |
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Post by vjaska on Apr 17, 2022 22:29:30 GMT
Would Westfield would be a pull for Thamesmead residents? (Obviously with a change at Canning Town) I’d imagine maybe although Bluewater does seem more likely for residents to perhaps go to but I reckon it could potentially be a fairly popular extension with residents able to interchange at Canning Town to reach C London? A few local members on here have noted that the DLR is already at capacity, even during COVID, so I wonder how it would cope with an extension. DLR from Woolwich is often full from Woolwich. It’s currently not helped by SE trains and Thameslink still not running pre covid services. Crossrail will help massively. I think Crossrail should be 24/7 , and yes an X53 would also be a bonus I don't see the necessity in a X53 at this stage, especially over linking an area with poor longer length links like Thamesmead, which is why it's odd TfL is potentially trialing such a thing rather than linking an area like Thamesmead instead. The X53 will run into issues like what stops you serve, traffic whereas with a X177, you can at least skip substantial sections of the route a la X68 to get Thamesmead residents into Central London territory. Until road planners take reducing traffic far more seriously rather than partaking in silly schemes like LTN's that bring few benefits for buses, Inner London limited stop routes won't work and the focus should be on the X68 style service with a substantial express section getting people from the poor transport linked area to Central London or whatever final destination is required. |
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Post by cl54 on Apr 18, 2022 6:13:53 GMT
Would Westfield would be a pull for Thamesmead residents? (Obviously with a change at Canning Town) I’d imagine maybe although Bluewater does seem more likely for residents to perhaps go to but I reckon it could potentially be a fairly popular extension with residents able to interchange at Canning Town to reach C London? A few local members on here have noted that the DLR is already at capacity, even during COVID, so I wonder how it would cope with an extension. DLR from Woolwich is often full from Woolwich. It’s currently not helped by SE trains and Thameslink still not running pre covid services. Crossrail will help massively. I think Crossrail should be 24/7 , and yes an X53 would also be a bonus Thameslink services are fully restored from 15th May. The DLR services from Woolwich are currently all 3 car trains. It should be remembered that anyone who buys a Zone 1/2 Travelcard gets free bus travel across the whole of London. This is why North Greenwich is so popular. |
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Post by route53 on Apr 18, 2022 11:29:53 GMT
DLR from Woolwich is often full from Woolwich. It’s currently not helped by SE trains and Thameslink still not running pre covid services. Crossrail will help massively. I think Crossrail should be 24/7 , and yes an X53 would also be a bonus I don't see the necessity in a X53 at this stage, especially over linking an area with poor longer length links like Thamesmead, which is why it's odd TfL is potentially trialing such a thing rather than linking an area like Thamesmead instead. The X53 will run into issues like what stops you serve, traffic whereas with a X177, you can at least skip substantial sections of the route a la X68 to get Thamesmead residents into Central London territory. Until road planners take reducing traffic far more seriously rather than partaking in silly schemes like LTN's that bring few benefits for buses, Inner London limited stop routes won't work and the focus should be on the X68 style service with a substantial express section getting people from the poor transport linked area to Central London or whatever final destination is required. The X177 does make more sense for Thamesmead, however seeing as TfL made cuts to the 25 because it parallels CrossRail, I can’t see them green lighting a X177 for the fact that it parallels the Greenwich line for much of its route, an X53 or whatever you want to name this express route would have to not parallel a railway line in such a blatant way, pretty sure TfL made this clear in the Report, an X53 could potentially run fast from Blackheath to Elephant or as a stop gap for the Bakerloo line, have the X53 run to Lewisham then non stop, besides, wouldn’t an X177 be caught up in the single lane traffic because of the bike lane from Woolwich to Greenwich |
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